Hand spanking C47

[samcole]

Ha...there were SOPs for swinging the prop, don't you remember?

Step back when she lights up.

I use the same SOPs on my J3, only I gotta be a little quicker.

[goingnowherefast]

I still can't figure out why some people think SOP's are required to hand swing a DC-3 prop.........but that's AvCanada for ya!!!!

That was Cat. He made a derogatory remark about the younger generation's use of SOPs. See post 3 in this thread.

[NWONT]

Many of the photos posted on bush flying are from a bygone era....and so are some of us. We enjoy looking at these photos because we have memories (some fond..some not) of a time in aviation history that has passed and ain't coming back. Pictures like this one remind us of a time when unexpected problems happened and there is no written procedure or no ground support equipment, then it was up to you to come up with a solution or you will sit there forever. Such as firing a can of gas into the intake and swinging that prop to get the girl to a maintenance base. None of us ever heard of SOP's or duty days or any of the rest of that bullshit. As I have mentioned, the planes and the technology were old and not all that dependable, but we used every ounce of energy we had to keep them flying. We tend to get a little cranky in our old age when some child, fresh out of college is sitting in his Moms basement playing with his Nintendo or Game Boy makes a comment, based on something he learned in class yesterday, about how we did things wrong 35 years ago. I know Cat Driver can be......opinionated....at times, and so can I, but if you knew his history and all that he has done and accomplished in his life I think you might show him a bit more respect. History goes by fast. Many times on AvCanada, I've seen someone post about a pile of twisted metal in the bush beside some northern airport and ask "What's this all about?" ....and I think, damn, has that crash already been forgotten!!!

[Bacunayagua]

So you got a job by using the leverage of a pilot shortage instead of by your flying history and recommendations from previous employers?

Interesting.

Not to mention the industry should be very concerned when pilots use " leverage " due to a shortage of pilots instead of getting hired on merit.

Care to tell us what airplane they gave you this job on?

Not at all, We both know just a few years ago you practically needed to have 5000 hours and a moon landing to even be considered for a job in a navajo (yes I'm exaggerating a bit, but not much).

No doubt some get hired on merit, others get hired on who they know. I think we can both agree on knowing people that we just can't help scratch our heads and wonder how they got into that position. What I meant by that statement is that given the current market, I and most other pilots with my hours, do not have to settle for a co-jo job anymore. Most of these two crewed machines are single pilot certified at the end of the day.

I know it's hard for you old timers to believe, but most of us do like you stories and even wonder what it must have been like flying during the "golden age". But you can't start flinging shit at us and expect us to just sit there and take it. The attitude of most old timers around here reminds me of this cartoon.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/ori ... 43/d7a.jpg

No one had said anything on your circle jerk of a thread initially until you had to pipe up with your " we didn't need anyone reading SOPs".
I think it's very clear you have some sort of chip on your shoulder about the new generation of pilots. Hell, maybe the other Airbus guys were scratching their heads and wondering how you got there.

[samcole]

Bacunayaqua it's sounds to me like you're the one with the chip on his shoulder. I started this post to bring back of few bygone memories and you seem to think it's an assault on the new generation. I think you should sit down and consider seriously what some of these veterans are saying. If you do that you just might have a career in aviation. I've been flying for 46 years and have come across many many types, but fortunately only a handful with a know it all attitude like yours, and they didn't go too far.
Case closed

[Cat Driver]

The sad truth is we are has been's living in the past samcole and these new guys think we know nothing compared to them.

I have been on this forum for decades and watched the industry change to what we see today.

I have finally come to the conclusion it is hopeless and I think I will just not bother trying give advice here.

If a poster decides to insult another poster the least one would expect is for them to at least have a background that supports their credibility.

[oldwrench]

San Cole your post about the C 47 being rescued from Wunnamin Lake brings back many memories from those days, I was the fellow pouring the fuel into the scoop and we got lucky to get the old girl started, but those days we did whatever it took and tried our best to keep the planes flying sometimes in very hash conditions and very little support equipment. Things have changed and stuff we did is now considered totally crazy and unacceptable I guess it is called progress.

[Cat Driver]

My first job flying transport category airplanes was with Austin Airways in 1967 and we flew scheduled airline flights out of Timmins Ontario seven days a week year round as far north as Cape Dorset.

Our main aircraft was the DC3 but we did a lot of the flying using the PBY for water operations in the far north.

It involved a lot of IFR flying using mostly the ADF for approaches although we sometimes flew south where there were full ILS facilities.

In the winter it could be brutal getting the airplane put away for the next days flying putting the engine covers on and attaching the Herman Nelson and then putting wing covers on to protect the upper surfaces from snow and frost.

In the morning we had to start about an hour before take off getting the Herman Nelson going and pre heating the engines.

Navigation was map reading when VFR and ADF and Astro Compass when we could get star or sun shots above the cloud cover.

Considering the environment we flew in it was amazing we did not have more accidents than we did.

Oh, I almost forgot to mention how difficult it was loading and unloading 45 gallon drums of fuel in the DC3 which sat on a tail wheel.

Also during the winter we used wheel skis for off airport operations.

When the Twin Otter was built we thought we had died and went to heaven it was so much more easy to operate not to mention the turbine engines were so much more dependable.

I started on the Twin Otter in 1974 on floats.

Back to hand spanking the DC3.

It was easier to start it using 25 feet of rope, a Ski Doo and two people, one to drive the Ski Doo and one to pull the prop through to get it over the first compression stroke so the Ski Doo could keep it turning.

But for sure hand spanking it always worked.

Speaking of hand spanking it.......

[samcole]

Cat the rope thing worked fine if the guy driving the skidoo didnt slow down and let the rope get slack. I was in Sandy one time and we used the MTC pickup, but just as the engine started the truck driver stopped and the prop sucked up the rope. at that point the prop became a winch and started to drag the truck toward the airplane. As it started to lift the back of the truck off the ground the rope broke. It took me two hours with a sharp knife trying to get the remains of the rope out from behind the hub. Valleyboy that was Franco. Now that was funny.

[samcole]

San Cole your post about the C 47 being rescued from Wunnamin Lake brings back many memories from those days, I was the fellow pouring the fuel into the scoop and we got lucky to get the old girl started, but those days we did whatever it took and tried our best to keep the planes flying sometimes in very hash conditions and very little support equipment. Things have changed and stuff we did is now considered totally crazy and unacceptable I guess it is called progress.

[samcole]

Hi Pete, glad to see your still out there. Saw your picture with the guys at Jack's memorial. Wished I could have been there. Remember that load of canned goods you spread along the road rushing to put out that engine fire on SFI.

[TG]

None of us ever heard of SOP's or duty days or any of the rest of that bullshit.

Bullshit!? Are you sure about that?
Remind me of life expectancy at that time.

Speaking of (life expectancy) This "My generation is the best" type of banter did not start with yours or mine.
I'm sure if we could bring guys from WWII, they would happily call all of you a bunch of wuss for not getting shot at while dead reckoning!
But yes, big massive thank you for clearing my path and make my life wayyy much easier than what it could have been.
I think that is what Bacunayagua is missing.



Keep the pictures and stories coming...

[NWONT]

Ha ha, I knew when I typed 'bullshit" somebodies panties were going bunch up. Yes, life expectancy was somewhat shorter than today for sure. Can't even remember how many funerals I've been to but I'm sure getting tired of trying to explain the differences in the challenges there was in flying 40 years ago from today. You like pictures? Well here's one for you. I changed this engine in Gillam Man in 1974. The warmest it got was -42F and I was wishing someone would have shot me and put me out of my misery. lol

[NWONT]

I know I'm getting older and my patience level has gone way down, but I often think that this is who I'm talking to on AvCanada!!!

[godsrcrazy]

I believe the above should say.

The SOP says its not serviceable. If you can't get it fixed soon i can't go. My duty day is over at 15:30.

[samcole]

NWONT is right when he says there were no SOPS or duty days. I feel like we are a bit off track here from the original post, but for what it's worth we really did not SOPs. Never heard of them...or an OPS manual...duty days or anything else. There were no training syllabus'...flight manuals...load sheet sheets or paperwork of any kind. Man when I think back it was pretty simple. I'm still a qualified and working 737 captain and I realize the huge change that's occurred since then, but I think we can all recognize that. I don't think anyone is trying to put anyone else down. These are just facts.

[Cat Driver]

I feel like we are a bit off track here from the original post, but for what it's worth we really did not SOPs.

But we did have check lists for the airplane we were flying.

Never heard of them...or an OPS manual...duty days or anything else.

True but we did understand when we were too sick or tired to fly...at least we should have.

There were no training syllabus'...flight manuals...load sheet sheets or paperwork of any kind.

True, but we were trained to fly the airplane we were flying...sometimes better than others.

And we did know how to do a W&B and we could do simple math to figure it all out.

Man when I think back it was pretty simple.

Ahh just think of the size of the ANO's and compare them to the CAR's.

[xsbank]

YOU RAN WITH SCISSORS?! Holy crap!

[valleyboy]

Not scissors but away from shot guns and pissed off husbands and BF's -- try to explain "it was only stick time" to one of them

[Siddley Hawker]

Holy cow!! This is my first post and I didn't realize it would garner such a lively discussion. Was somebody suggesting this was dangerous? Hmm. Of course it's pretty hard to swing the prop on a "pig boat".I just finished the morning plowing around in a super typhoon. Maybe I should send some pics of that and see what happens. Anyway, thanks Antique and Ray.

Not quite hand bombing but if you had a bum starter you could start the pig using the other engine and a rope. If the right starter was good the rope went over both prop domes - to come off the top of the dome - and if the left starter was good, under both domes. That's Jimmy Bell's version anyway. Cat, didn't you once get a Twin Beech going by using a modification of that 'SOP'?

Sam I knew your dad well, he was a good friend. I flew with him at Northern Wings in the '60's.