Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

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rudder
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by rudder »

The tone of this thread underlines why management is winning and the pilot profession is losing.

Keep it up. They are having a good chuckle in the executive suites reading this stuff.
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PositiveRate27
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by PositiveRate27 »

rudder wrote:The tone of this thread underlines why management is winning and the pilot profession is losing.

Keep it up. They are having a good chuckle in the executive suites reading this stuff.
Precisely.

Division among pilot groups has always been the goal of the executives. Look at AC vs Rouge vs Express. Look at Pre 2015 Jazz vs Post 2015 vs GGN vs Sky. WestJet was moving along nicely with pilots making more and more gains until finally management introduced Encore and Swoop. Instead of working together to better wages and working conditions for the pilot profession, we get attitudes of Us vs Them. Upper management loves this.

There has always been animosity toward “the other guys” and rest assured the next contract/flow/LOU will continue to stoke that fire.

If you truly want to see a change, don’t buy into it.
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atphat
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by atphat »

TheStig wrote:
daedalusx wrote:I'm still confused how operating a 175 for Sky is any different from operating a 190 for mainline...
I'll go ahead and answer the rhetorical question. One has pilots employed by Air Canada the other doesn't. Thus, if you were to create two groups; 1 with Pilots employed by AC, and 2 with Pilots not employed by AC, they would be in the second group.

How is operating a Dash-8 at Jazz different than at Perimeter? Or a 1900 at Wasaya vs GGN? They are different companies. If you have King Air experience does any Beechcraft operator owe you a job? Should the 767 Cargojet pilots be given special flow through arrangements, they already fly Air Canada's cargo on a type AC operates?

Even the title of this thread is disconnected from the true grievance of the OP. Getting hired at Air Canada has nothing to do with 'Express VS Mainline Pilots' and everything to do with Express VS Off the Street. Nobody operating at a non-Express carrier ever seems to suggest they deserve or are in any way owed a job at Air Canada because the paint scheme of their aircraft or uniform.
Well said. That is a very nice way to put it.
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Sharklasers
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Sharklasers »

Things are going in the right direction with the prospect of repatriating regional flying to the mainline like they are doing in the States.
There will be less terrible regional jobs and more mainline jobs for whoever Air Canada choose to hire.
A rising tide lifts all boats.
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Sharklasers
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Sharklasers »

TheStig wrote:
daedalusx wrote:I'm still confused how operating a 175 for Sky is any different from operating a 190 for mainline...
I'll go ahead and answer the rhetorical question. One has pilots employed by Air Canada the other doesn't. Thus, if you were to create two groups; 1 with Pilots employed by AC, and 2 with Pilots not employed by AC, they would be in the second group.

How is operating a Dash-8 at Jazz different than at Perimeter? Or a 1900 at Wasaya vs GGN? They are different companies. If you have King Air experience does any Beechcraft operator owe you a job? Should the 767 Cargojet pilots be given special flow through arrangements, they already fly Air Canada's cargo on a type AC operates?

Even the title of this thread is disconnected from the true grievance of the OP. Getting hired at Air Canada has nothing to do with 'Express VS Mainline Pilots' and everything to do with Express VS Off the Street. Nobody operating at a non-Express carrier ever seems to suggest they deserve or are in any way owed a job at Air Canada because the paint scheme of their aircraft or uniform.
Plus we look so good on the train with that leaf on the hat.
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JBI
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by JBI »

daedalusx wrote:I'm still confused how operating a 175 for Sky is any different from operating a 190 for mainline...

Again ... The American pilot market is doing much better with true flow-through on most regionals as well as commuting policies, hotels, signing bonuses, retention bonuses...etc
Well, sort of. I completely agree that with the 1500 hour rule combined with the absolute crap pay the US regionals were paying previously, US regionals are now hurting for pilots and offering much better pay and signing bonuses.

However, right now only American Airlines wholly owned regionals PSA, Piedmont and Envoy have a true, no interview, flow. However, estimates are 5 years to 10 years before you actually get to mainline AA and you go Bottom of the list. Also, American mainline flies the 190 and Envoy flies the 175.

Delta only offers a PML like interview for Endeavor and United offers a PML like interview for ExpressJet, CommutAir and Air Wisconsin. However, both of these programs only offer an interview after a certain amount of time as CAPTAIN. The difference between the PML and these programs is that it is possible for someone at these airlines to still get hired Off the Street, so essentially they get to skip the line.

As for the original topic, I try to take a pragmatic approach to things. Airlines will try and staff their operations in an efficient and effective manner just as pilots will try and find the right job that they enjoy and that will provide them with the best lifestyle/quality of life. I would hope that regardless of the livery on the outside of the aircraft, pilots will always do their best to act professionally, safely and provide good customer service (yes, you provide customer service). Never take a job SOLELY based on a carrot being dangled, but that carrot definitely should be a factor. But have your options open if that carrot is no longer available.

Honest question, what are guys at Express carriers who got the "No thanks" from AC doing. Are they staying at the Express carriers or moving on to something else? If enough people leave the Express carriers after getting the AC PFO, you'd probably see changes in how the Express recruitment works. Thing is, Captain at Jazz is still a pretty decent job. I can't fault a guy for staying their long term.
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Rupert_Pupkin
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Rupert_Pupkin »

JBI wrote:
daedalusx wrote:I'm still confused how operating a 175 for Sky is any different from operating a 190 for mainline...

Again ... The American pilot market is doing much better with true flow-through on most regionals as well as commuting policies, hotels, signing bonuses, retention bonuses...etc
Well, sort of. I completely agree that with the 1500 hour rule combined with the absolute crap pay the US regionals were paying previously, US regionals are now hurting for pilots and offering much better pay and signing bonuses.

However, right now only American Airlines wholly owned regionals PSA, Piedmont and Envoy have a true, no interview, flow. However, estimates are 5 years to 10 years before you actually get to mainline AA and you go Bottom of the list. Also, American mainline flies the 190 and Envoy flies the 175.

Delta only offers a PML like interview for Endeavor and United offers a PML like interview for ExpressJet, CommutAir and Air Wisconsin. However, both of these programs only offer an interview after a certain amount of time as CAPTAIN. The difference between the PML and these programs is that it is possible for someone at these airlines to still get hired Off the Street, so essentially they get to skip the line.

As for the original topic, I try to take a pragmatic approach to things. Airlines will try and staff their operations in an efficient and effective manner just as pilots will try and find the right job that they enjoy and that will provide them with the best lifestyle/quality of life. I would hope that regardless of the livery on the outside of the aircraft, pilots will always do their best to act professionally, safely and provide good customer service (yes, you provide customer service). Never take a job SOLELY based on a carrot being dangled, but that carrot definitely should be a factor. But have your options open if that carrot is no longer available.

Honest question, what are guys at Express carriers who got the "No thanks" from AC doing. Are they staying at the Express carriers or moving on to something else? If enough people leave the Express carriers after getting the AC PFO, you'd probably see changes in how the Express recruitment works. Thing is, Captain at Jazz is still a pretty decent job. I can't fault a guy for staying their long term.
I got PFO'd about 6 months ago from AC from 2.0. Been at Jazz for 2 years going RJ captain in January. When I got rejected I instantly wanted to quit and wanted nothing to do with the AC express brand. Once I started to look at other jobs, I soon realized how much seniority I'd be giving up after just 2 years (600 people under me). The pissed off person in me was ready to quit but the logical person in me made me stay. I'll be a captain at jazz for the next 20 + years but I am in no way proud to fly a plane with a maple leaf on it.
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digits_
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by digits_ »

Rupert_Pupkin wrote: I got PFO'd about 6 months ago from AC from 2.0. Been at Jazz for 2 years going RJ captain in January. When I got rejected I instantly wanted to quit and wanted nothing to do with the AC express brand. Once I started to look at other jobs, I soon realized how much seniority I'd be giving up after just 2 years (600 people under me). The pissed off person in me was ready to quit but the logical person in me made me stay. I'll be a captain at jazz for the next 20 + years but I am in no way proud to fly a plane with a maple leaf on it.
That's one way of retaining motivated employees :shock:

Thanks for sharing though, it certainly is an interesting point of view.
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HansDietrich
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by HansDietrich »

I can see jealousy eating a lot of the Jazz guys alive! Yes, that's a fact. The hatred toward those that made it to AC by the ones that didn't is unreal. One only needs to listen to some of the discussions around the crew room or the shitty lounge!

You came to Jazz to work for Jazz, not Air Canada. If they hire you, great. If they don't, you still have a job at Jazz and you can wear the Maple Leaf on your tunic buttons.

As someone here said: "Calm Air ATR captains are way more qualified to join AC than a Jazz F/O flying a Dash 8 classic".

What I don't agree with is AC's idiotic rule to hire mostly pilots with degrees. As if a degree in General Arts makes you a better pilot. I have a degree (thankfully in something worth while, not something that will let me be "drive through manager" at Tim Hortons). So does this degree make me a better pilot? F*ck no! Did it make it easier to study / pass my sim ride? F*ck no!

I really see no point in making "degrees" a relevant point in hiring at AC. If anything it disqualifies excellent pilots from ever joining mainline.

But if I were to be a selfish prick, l could just say "oh well, better get that online degree from Phoenix University! You'll be a 777 RP in no time"
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by WF9F »

You are not an Air Canada Pilot/Employee until you are hired and working at Air Canada.
Next thing, when you do get hired at AC you will want your seniority from when you started at the connector...we already saw that show!!
Every company is different , it doesn't make you an AC Pilot/Employee because you call STOC taxing in to YYZ or YUL!!

And your topic title sucks, there is NO AC Pilots vs. Express Pilots or any other Pilot group for that matter.
Guys and Gals here are the same as Guy and Gals and any other flying company, they are just trying to make a living.

Pretty stupid of anyone if they didn't get hired at AC to be pissed at the pilot group, I didn't do your interview you moron!! :D
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by daedalusx »

Sad thing is everyone here has a valid point, on both side of the aisle.

OF course a lot of post 2015 Jazz guys are bitter and envious, wouldn't you, if you'd quit a nice 703/4/5 job because it was made clear that the way to mainline is through express then get pfoed for lack of degree when you have 4000/5000+ hrs with mpic and turbine and now stuck on the B Scale, especially when your interview was based on the original A scale then bait and switched on the offer.

In an era of unprecedented growth and forecast of movement due to retirements, one would hope that the pilots group would unify to improve everyone's T+C instead of this current crab bucket mentality of 'If I can't have it then neither should you' or 'why should I bleed for the unborn'
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by HansDietrich »

WF9F wrote:You are not an Air Canada Pilot/Employee until you are hired and working at Air Canada.
Next thing, when you do get hired at AC you will want your seniority from when you started at the connector...we already saw that show!!
Every company is different , it doesn't make you an AC Pilot/Employee because you call STOC taxing in to YYZ or YUL!!

And your topic title sucks, there is NO AC Pilots vs. Express Pilots or any other Pilot group for that matter.
Guys and Gals here are the same as Guy and Gals and any other flying company, they are just trying to make a living.

Pretty stupid of anyone if they didn't get hired at AC to be pissed at the pilot group, I didn't do your interview you moron!! :D
Well said!
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Rupert_Pupkin
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Rupert_Pupkin »

HansDietrich wrote:I can see jealousy eating a lot of the Jazz guys alive! Yes, that's a fact. The hatred toward those that made it to AC by the ones that didn't is unreal. One only needs to listen to some of the discussions around the crew room or the shitty lounge!

You came to Jazz to work for Jazz, not Air Canada. If they hire you, great. If they don't, you still have a job at Jazz and you can wear the Maple Leaf on your tunic buttons.

As someone here said: "Calm Air ATR captains are way more qualified to join AC than a Jazz F/O flying a Dash 8 classic".

What I don't agree with is AC's idiotic rule to hire mostly pilots with degrees. As if a degree in General Arts makes you a better pilot. I have a degree (thankfully in something worth while, not something that will let me be "drive through manager" at Tim Hortons). So does this degree make me a better pilot? F*ck no! Did it make it easier to study / pass my sim ride? F*ck no!

I really see no point in making "degrees" a relevant point in hiring at AC. If anything it disqualifies excellent pilots from ever joining mainline.

But if I were to be a selfish prick, l could just say "oh well, better get that online degree from Phoenix University! You'll be a 777 RP in no time"
I think the "jealousy" stems from people trying to figure out why some were chosen over others. Say someone like myself 4500 hours, jet time, command time, perfect training record. Then you see people that came from college, got their pic from PICUS, no real command time get chosen. I'm not griping but I think a lot of people who, in their own opinion, paid there dues flying wise and felt they deserved the job over people who were lucky enough to coast through their careers so far without almost dying 7 times.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by HansDietrich »

Rupert_Pupkin wrote:I think the "jealousy" stems from people trying to figure out why some were chosen over others. Say someone like myself 4500 hours, jet time, command time, perfect training record. Then you see people that came from college, got their pic from PICUS, no real command time get chosen. I'm not griping but I think a lot of people who, in their own opinion, paid there dues flying wise and felt they deserved the job over people who were lucky enough to coast through their careers so far without almost dying 7 times.
Yeah, I know what you mean. I paid my dues as well, freezing my ass off, putting on engine tents in -40*C, and flying 14 hour duty days, falling asleep on approach. If that only impressed those who hire at AC. We are an old school breed, my friend. We're no longer being looked at as "Oh wow, this guys knows his shit". Most of these young kids straight out of college and into an RJ at Jazz say "Oh, how stupid were those old fellas to fly up North for 3 years...."
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by JBI »

Rupert_Pupkin wrote:

I got PFO'd about 6 months ago from AC from 2.0. Been at Jazz for 2 years going RJ captain in January. When I got rejected I instantly wanted to quit and wanted nothing to do with the AC express brand. Once I started to look at other jobs, I soon realized how much seniority I'd be giving up after just 2 years (600 people under me). The pissed off person in me was ready to quit but the logical person in me made me stay. I'll be a captain at jazz for the next 20 + years but I am in no way proud to fly a plane with a maple leaf on it.
Thanks for the answer. What would it take for you to consider another option? (i.e. Transat, Sunwing, DEC at Encore etc.) I'm assuming right now the pay and working conditions would be a step down, but is there anything in particular, that improved, would get you to move?

Don't get me wrong, I think you're still in a great position which offers good benefits, schedule and pay. I just think as there continues to be growth in the industry and a shortage of skilled guys, I wonder what other carriers should be trying to do to recruit the experienced Express guys who, given the right motivation, would be happy to move on from AC.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by mbav8r »

daedalusx wrote:I'm still confused how operating a 175 for Sky is any different from operating a 190 for mainline...
Nobody addressed the most obvious and divisive issue, about 50% of the pay for year 1 Captain to close to 60% less later on.

I work for Jazz, who’s biggest customer is Air Canada, I don’t work for Air Canada, however I used to work for AC much like the Aeroplan employees used to or the Heavy maintenance guys did. I hope I don’t suffer the same fate as a result of the divestiture.
Anyhow that’s history and I can certainly feel the current pain of the Aeroplan employees uncertainty of their future, now that Air Canada is starting a new reward program, which will eventually be sold, rinse, repeat.
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mbav8r
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by mbav8r »

Sharklasers wrote:Things are going in the right direction with the prospect of repatriating regional flying to the mainline like they are doing in the States.
There will be less terrible regional jobs and more mainline jobs for whoever Air Canada choose to hire.
A rising tide lifts all boats.
Maybe if the RRA(repatriation) wasn’t at reduced wages, the tide is not rising as much as you imply.
This was another chess move by CR while ACPA was still playing checkers, reality was with a lack of pilots at Express, up gauging was inevitable, you gave it to them on a silver platter.
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atphat
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by atphat »

Just can’t stop giving.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Dockjock »

Cannot believe people are griping about the requirement for a university degree or college diploma. It's been like that since at least the 1970s. Not to put too fine a point on in but this career involves a fair amount of reading the requirements and expectations, and then following them exactly.
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atphat
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by atphat »

Dockjock wrote:Cannot believe people are griping about the requirement for a university degree or college diploma. It's been like that since at least the 1970s. Not to put too fine a point on in but this career involves a fair amount of reading the requirements and expectations, and then following them exactly.
I agree it has been this way for quite some time. There could be a million reasons why someone does not have a degree or diploma. All of them having nothing to do with their ability to fly an airplane professionally, and having the ability to read and follow requirements and expectations.
Probably a topic for another thread though.
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