Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

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goingnowherefast
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

Post by goingnowherefast »

A plane on a ferry permit doesn't need or have a valid C of A, hence the ferry permit. The ferry permit is the airworthiness authority.

I'd fly most twins with the gear stuck down. Empty, ferry permit, VMC, etc. If it won't maintain with an engine failed too, I would treat it like a single engine airplane.
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J31
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

Post by J31 »

A SA227 ferry flight at about 11500 lbs with the gear down would not be a problem if one engine failed. That is 4500 lbs under Max Takeoff Weight of 16000 lbs!
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Cat Driver
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

Post by Cat Driver »

A plane on a ferry permit doesn't need or have a valid C of A, hence the ferry permit. The ferry permit is the airworthiness authority.
I am well aware of what a ferry permit is.

I'd fly most twins with the gear stuck down. Empty, ferry permit, VMC, etc. If it won't maintain with an engine failed too, I would treat it like a single engine airplane.
I am also aware that it can be done. However why expose myself to unnecessary risk of an accident or worse if I don't have to?

I would not expose myself to unnecessary risk for no good reason, the airplane can be fixed where it is or the maintenance department can come and fly it somewhere else if they really want it moved.
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Donald
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

Post by Donald »

If it was your company, you'd fire the pilots for refusing to operate under a ferry permit, then ridicule them on avcanada, Cat.

Quit trolling.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

Post by goingnowherefast »

Haha, I'm with Donald. Cat, you are worse than my wife at twisting the intent and meaning of a sentence. Only difference is you are an ass, she does it to be a flirt.

From what I've gathered in this thread, an empty metro 3 with the gear down and an engine out performs similar to a twin engine trainer with an engine out. Biggest difference is there aren't 4 or 5 big blades going flat when you are trying to land.
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

Post by Cat Driver »

For sure I am an ass and everything else that one can think of.

But I managed to get through a very long career without bending metal and am enjoying retirement with the money I was paid for being an ass.

:mrgreen:
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YYZSaabGuy
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

Post by YYZSaabGuy »

Cat Driver wrote: Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:52 pm For sure I am an ass and everything else that one can think of.

But I managed to get through a very long career without bending metal and am enjoying retirement with the money I was paid for being an ass.

:mrgreen:
The vast majority of professional pilots manage to get through their careers without bending metal. That makes you the rule, not the exception.

So: as you're unexceptional, why the endless bragging about your unexceptional performance?

:mrgreen:
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atphat
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

Post by atphat »

YYZSaabGuy wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:32 am
Cat Driver wrote: Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:52 pm For sure I am an ass and everything else that one can think of.

But I managed to get through a very long career without bending metal and am enjoying retirement with the money I was paid for being an ass.

:mrgreen:
The vast majority of professional pilots manage to get through their careers without bending metal. That makes you the rule, not the exception.y

So: as you're unexceptional, why the endless bragging about your unexceptional performance?

:mrgreen:
Seriously. That’s like bragging about being able to read.
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pelmet
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

Post by pelmet »

bobcaygeon wrote: Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:05 pm An empty Metro 3 at -15C would definitely maintain on one engine.
I’ve got a 1000 hrs in a twin otter with -20’s on floats loaded to the nuts with lots of time where landing on water isn’t an option. I’ll take the flight in the empty Metro thanks.
While I have no Metro experience, I am 99.999% sure that I would be willing to fly one empty with the gear stuck down on a -15 degree day. And probably on a plus 30 degree day as well. Just like a one engine inoperative ferry flight, there is increased risk. I doubt in this accident case that there would be any problem shutting down an engine and continuing on with the gear down.

Arguments that it is dangerous from guys who tell us stories about taking off with ice on wings and no doubt somehow figured out interesting ways to get into small airports up north in crap weather in the old days is.......complete hypocrisy.

Pelmet....no bent metal. fabic, or composite yet.
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

Post by Cat Driver »

This is the way of the internet, at least I have lived a life in aviation where I have done things that I can brag about and do so using my real name on these forums.

So atphat and the rest of you why don't you post something you have done that would show you accomplished something out of the ordinary you can be proud of?

For instance I had a really interesting opportunity to spend time in Athens Greece as a guest of the Greek CAA in the capacity of an adviser in the setting up of a Twin Otter airline operation and they paid for all my wife's expenses as part of the deal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirSea_Lines

There you go that is one of many things that I can look back on and remember with a bit of satisfaction.
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

Post by Victory »

Personally I don't fly at all. Too risky.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

Post by goingnowherefast »

Congrats cat, you "flew a desk" in Greece and didn't crash it. Hardly making the point you are after. I have more respect for PilotDAR than you, and he recently wrecked a plane.

Flight testing and instructing in unique GA aircraft is more risky than flying an A320 sim in France. Sorry, but your career is nothing worth bragging about. Glad you enjoyed it, but shut up, nobody cares.
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

Post by Cat Driver »

Congrats cat, you "flew a desk" in Greece and didn't crash it. Hardly making the point you are after. I have more respect for PilotDAR than you, and he recently wrecked a plane.
Goingnowherefast I have read all your posts here on Avcanada and realise you are relatively new to aviation and barely started a career as a pilot but that is no excuse for what arguably is one of the most thoughtless and stupid statements ever posted here.

PilotDAR is a personal friend of mine who has stayed here in my home and I am appalled that you would make such an insensitive statement about him having wrecked a plane.

He was nearly killed and is still recovering, I keep in touch with him and have no idea what happened because at this point in time that is not important, what is important is his recovery.

You have really stepped across the line of decency with such a comment.....unless of course you know something about PilotDAR and his accident I don't.

And just to correct your insulting remark that all I did was fly a desk you couldn't be further from the truth if you tried.

My working with the Greek CAA came about after I was finished working for AirSea Lines where I was the person they had hired training their pilots set up the company flight training and help write their operations manual in 2007 / 2008.

So you are so far out of touch with reality if I were you I would just crawl into a cave and stay there.

. . // Cat Driver.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


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goingnowherefast
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

Post by goingnowherefast »

I have great respect for PilotDAR. He is smart, capable, humble and willing to help others. You on the other hand are arrogant and are rarely helpful. You take every opportunity to brag and belittle. My point is that you may not have bent any tin, but that means very little about you or your career. PilotDAR was in a very unfortunate situation, but I consider him one of the great posters on this site. Polar opposite to my opinion of you.

Now you will claim that you don't care about my opinion of you. However you took the effort to look up my history on avcanada and take the effort to constantly argue with me. Clearly you are concerned with my opinion of you.
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

Post by YYZSaabGuy »

Cat Driver wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:49 am
So atphat and the rest of you why don't you post something you have done that would show you accomplished something out of the ordinary you can be proud of?

For instance I had a really interesting opportunity to spend time in Athens Greece as a guest of the Greek CAA in the capacity of an adviser in the setting up of a Twin Otter airline operation and they paid for all my wife's expenses as part of the deal.
Cat, that's just wonderful. Good for you.

And since we're swapping out-of-the-ordinary accomplishments, I'll just point out that I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once. So y'know, there's that. :roll:
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

Funny things is, this has really very little to do with the question of flight on one engine (and the enevitable "Cat fight" these threads tend to spawn) but more to do with mishandling the aircraft after landing. With the experience level of the captains on carriers like this one, this will become more commonplace. Assymetritic thrust and tiller steering can become a bit squirrely, especially when a wee bit too much reverse enters the equation. Things happen fast.
Was our friend PilotDar at the wheel?
Fly safe.
Illya
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

Post by Rockie »

Transport jets have very specific provisions in the MEL for gear down flight to ensure the required performance criteria are met. Do retractable turboprops not have something similar?
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

Post by goingnowherefast »

704 aircraft are required to be able to maintain a positive rate of climb on take-off with the gear down. The King Air 100 AFM has a notation on the accelerate-go performance charts that says the aircraft cannot climb with the gear down above a certain weight/altitude/temp combination.
This is also flight test data with new, properly rigged airframe and props that aren't chewed up by gravel. A 40,000 hour, beat to piss old plane won't perform the same.

To directly answer your question about the MEL, no there typically isn't anything. It is done under a ferry permit with no performance guarantees other than extrapolating 1st segment performance.
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

Post by Maynard »

Illya Kuryakin wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:10 am Funny things is, this has really very little to do with the question of flight on one engine (and the enevitable "Cat fight" these threads tend to spawn) but more to do with mishandling the aircraft after landing. With the experience level of the captains on carriers like this one, this will become more commonplace. Assymetritic thrust and tiller steering can become a bit squirrely, especially when a wee bit too much reverse enters the equation. Things happen fast.
Was our friend PilotDar at the wheel?
Fly safe.
Illya
The metro doesn't have tiller steering.
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

Post by VSF »

If they were on a ferry permit, gear down, because of a hydraulic issue, they could possibly have had no nose wheel steering whatsoever (other than castering).
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