how do kids afford this racket???

[spool up time]

It's been years since I went through flight training and from my seat on a 737 I am so out of touch with what the kids are doing these days...

i was posed this question by an Air Cadet in my squadron.

" I'm currently a grade 12 student and am looking into becoming a pilot. I have done many researches and called many universities about the pilot programs that they offer. The problem that I have run into is that, the flying part of the program is not covered under OSAP. Not only that but I can't even get a bank loan, because I don't have a strong cosigner, and I do not wish to work 2 years full time to build a line of credit. So if you could help me find some tricks or show me a pathway I can take towards my dream, that would mean the world to me. "

with the recent conditions in our industry, I can't help but think there has to be a way for someone in this individuals shoes to be able to get funding.

thanks all in advance for help in answering this question

[Bradley Tucker]

Pm me

[AOW]

While the university programs don't include flight training in their tuition, Confederation College and Sault College do. OSAP would be an option there.
Seneca College's degree program includes the flight training in the tuition too, I believe, but the tuition costs are much higher than the two other colleges, and I am not sure whether OSAP will cover this.

Good luck.

[lostaviator]

Aviation programs are a waste. They prey off young ones wanting to fly and sell them on fancy things like aviation management programs. Unless you have a masters or a phd, you're never going to manage anything.

Go get your licenses, get a flying job, get a degree online once your flying in an unrelated field (backup career). Get in on this wave of hiring while you can.

[Dockjock]

That is just straight up terrible advice.

Anyway here’s mine. Working for two years to save up for flight training could actually be a valid option because it implies that one would finish training without debt, or with far less debt. Entry level flying jobs won’t pay enough to begin reducing debt meaningfully, so it could be better from a cash perspective to do this. It ignores however the two year time deficit though, which could have meaningful implications in the future.
A college program is ideal. You can borrow against your enrolment, and it ticks the flying and post-secondary boxes (that many airlines require) at the same time, without you having to juggle the schedules and costs of two separate pursuits (an unrelated degree, and flight training).
Say what you will about the usefulness of an aviation management degree, but it is a valid way of gaining some industry and technical knowledge while also completing flight training. And being at college with several dozen aviation-mad classmates definitely primes your networking opportunities once you graduate.

[rookiepilot]

I do not wish to work 2 years full time to build a line of credit. So if you could help me find some tricks or show me a pathway

This is the problem line right here.

There is no "pathway" without hard work.

But I guess this is an old fashioned concept. Turn off Call of Duty and work nights / weekends. Do whatever it takes.

[digits_]

I do not wish to work 2 years full time to build a line of credit. So if you could help me find some tricks or show me a pathway

This is the problem line right here.

There is no "pathway" without hard work.

But I guess this is an old fashioned concept. Turn off Call of Duty and work nights / weekends. Do whatever it takes.

That's at least part of the problem yeah. By grade 12 you could probably have been working part time for 2-3 years. It depends on your personal situation as well of course. Some people need that money to survive or help family cover the bills, but I have a feeling that's not the case here.

So start working!

[HansDietrich]

I understand the predicament these kids are in. The reality of it is that some do find ways. Some are lucky enough to have parents with money, or parents that were disciplined enough to save money for their kids' tuition (something I'm struggling to do now) and some just worked to pay for their school.

I'll tell this to kids: "If you want to do it, you'll find a way. Nobody said you have to be a commercial pilot at the age of 20. If you can't afford it, straight out of high-school, do it at the age of 22, 24, 26, 28, 30... etc."

[rookiepilot]

One more thing:

Parents, get off the couch and mentor your kids on money. I'm doing this with my 15 year old. Don't know how, learn. I personally hate debt. But I'm old fashioned.

[ant_321]

That is just straight up terrible advice.

Anyway here’s mine. Working for two years to save up for flight training could actually be a valid option because it implies that one would finish training without debt, or with far less debt. Entry level flying jobs won’t pay enough to begin reducing debt meaningfully, so it could be better from a cash perspective to do this. It ignores however the two year time deficit though, which could have meaningful implications in the future.
A college program is ideal. You can borrow against your enrolment, and it ticks the flying and post-secondary boxes (that many airlines require) at the same time, without you having to juggle the schedules and costs of two separate pursuits (an unrelated degree, and flight training).
Say what you will about the usefulness of an aviation management degree, but it is a valid way of gaining some industry and technical knowledge while also completing flight training. And being at college with several dozen aviation-mad classmates definitely primes your networking opportunities once you graduate.

I don't think the previous advice is bad. Having an aviation management diploma or degree isn't going to help you much as a back up. Also as far as I know there is only one airline in Canada that really gives a crap about post secondary education.

[Mostly Harmless]

While the university programs don't include flight training in their tuition, Confederation College and Sault College do. OSAP would be an option there.
Seneca College's degree program includes the flight training in the tuition too, I believe, but the tuition costs are much higher than the two other colleges, and I am not sure whether OSAP will cover this.

Not everyone in Canada lives in Ontario. So what do the other 22.4 million Canadians who live without government subsidised flight training do?

[rookiepilot]

While the university programs don't include flight training in their tuition, Confederation College and Sault College do. OSAP would be an option there.
Seneca College's degree program includes the flight training in the tuition too, I believe, but the tuition costs are much higher than the two other colleges, and I am not sure whether OSAP will cover this.

Not everyone in Canada lives in Ontario. So what do the other 22.4 million Canadians who live without government subsidised flight training do?

Work. It's not complicated.

[Mostly Harmless]

Work. It's not complicated.

That is lovely advice. Since you have all the answers:

What's the going price for a licence these days?
If you are working low paying jobs is that a realistic option?
If your parents can't afford to fund you, how long would it take to save the required amount of money?

[rookiepilot]

Work. It's not complicated.

That is lovely advice. Since you have all the answers:

What's the going price for a licence these days?
If you are working low paying jobs is that a realistic option?
If your parents can't afford to fund you, how long would it take to save the required amount of money?

Look, sport.

No one is ENTITLED to the career of their choice, without waiting, without sacrifice. That word doesn't exist in my vocabulary, for starters. Novel concept, I know.

It will take whatever time is required to save the money desired. Again not complicated.

I was working part time stuff at age 10 --
Real jobs from 15. Evenings and weekends till 2 am sometimes. I'm talking the dirtiest crap jobs imaginable.
Full time + Multiple jobs from 18. No money to finish college. Supported myself entirely. Not a dime from parents. Living In Sh--hole basement suites. Eating the cheapest crap.
Almost no debt, though.
--------------------------------
Many others here, I'm sure have a similar path.
---------------------------
Run a successful business today. Maybe not a coincidence?

When kids are willing to all of that First -- Then I'll have more empathy. Until then forgive me if it's limited.

Edit -- want a piece of advice, kids? Don't buy a new car. Like, ever. Buy a cheap used POS and learn to fix it. Same for everything else. That's a start.

[Chris M]

Worked full time during the summer, 20-25 hours a week during the school year, lived cheap (no alcohol, smoking, bars, shopping, etc), earned some scholarships/bursaries, graduated (2011) with no debt and enough money in my pocket to move to my first place of work.

[rookiepilot]

Worked full time during the summer, 20-25 hours a week during the school year, lived cheap (no alcohol, smoking, bars, shopping, etc), earned some scholarships/bursaries, graduated (2011) with no debt and enough money in my pocket to move to my first place of work.

Well done. It's called "doing what it takes", which is a dirty word in this soft, entitled society.

Send me for "sensitivity training".

[LifeAt90Kts]

I funded flight school (outside of Ontario) with government student loans (mix of provincial and federal) and a bank student line of credit. I didn't have a cosigner for the bank line of credit, but they approved me anyway. They're generally a little more lenient on student stuff since you are after all educating yourself for employment. The government loan was actually pretty sweet. Based on my "financial need" they converted a portion of my loan to a grant that didn't need to be payed back. There's a 6 month grace period after you finish your studies, and then after that you only have to pay what you can afford based on your income. Making $30k I think I was paying $40 a month. The interest for both loans is ~4.5%

I worked while I studied to keep a roof over my head and semi-nutritious food in my fridge, and the loans covered my studies. It was by no means easy, but things worth having rarely are.

If I could do it all over again I probably would've taken a year to go work somewhere remote and squirrel away all the cash I could, but I was eager to fly, and when you're 20-something a year seems like a lifetime.

[Rockie]

Gotta agree with Rookie here, flying costs money regardless of which path you choose outside of the military. Even if you go to a subsidized college you still have to live and that costs money. So unless some kind hearted soul gives money to you for free you’re going to have to somehow get it yourself. The options as I see it are:

1. Loans
2. Work
3. Take up a life of crime.

[rookiepilot]

Sorry to churn the waters, but I also disagree with grants. But I disagree in principle with governments choosing winners and losers, as I've expressed before.

[JBI]

In the ten years since I wrote "So You Want to be a Pilot, Eh?", financing flight training has been one of the most asked questions. There's not a simple answer.

A few things to consider. Kids these days, and I fully blame their parents and rookie pilot's generation (though maybe not him personally), are pressured to have a career and life sorted out by the time they are in grade 11. I can't believe all the e-mails I would get from "helicopter parents" about what path was best for their little Billy or Johnny to be an Airline pilot by the time they were 21. Of the e-mails I got from students themselves, some were lazy kids but some were some of the most motivated impressive people that I've communicated with.

Nonetheless, I think most pilots on here who are flying for an airline would agree that the journey to get there was just as fun and interesting as the destination.

As mentioned, the Ontario Colleges are a good start if you're short of funds. My understanding is that they are not limited to Ontario High School students. I stand to be corrected on this. Regardless, I do know someone who, 15 years ago, moved to Ontario for a year to work and gain Ontario residency (and save money) and then got accepted into one of the programs. Moving to Thunder Bay, working on the ramp and earning money and getting to know people in the industry for a year and then doing flight training at Confed is a pretty good way to get started and, if they make a good impression, have a flying job right after college. Confed, Sault and Seneca are eligible for student loans.

The next thing to consider is to work part-time while flight training with a combo of loans and money earned from your job. There's a company called http://www.studentaviationfinancial.ca that does provide a small line of credit for flight training. I don't have any first hand experience with them so couldn't provide comment.

I don't mean to pick on this kid, but there aren't any "tricks" to get there. He/she has already joined air cadets so that's a great first start. As long as they have a general plan it will work out, it may just not be an instant thing. I.e. maybe they don't want to work for two years to get a line of credit, but maybe working two years at a small air carrier will not only help them save up money, get a line of credit but also a job after they're done. Not that it's a race, but working a year somewhere could actually put them ahead later on.

[Minimums]

Want the simplest, easy way, with no debt, a degree, and pilots license and a guaranteed job at Air Canada off the street when your done?

Join the military

You’ll also get paid, and be banking a pension while you are learnin.

I know blokes who worked at it in the bush, sluggged it out at a small operator and are just now gettin to the regionals hoping for an AC seat, some even got shot down (no degree), and all of’em got pennies for retirement, moved more than they have fingers on their hands, and are still chasin the dream, and they ain’t done yet.

Join the forces, make some comrades buddies, get taught, get paid, and in 15 years you’ll be farther ahead in life with waaaay cooler stories than those other blokes that mom and dad paid to go to school.

Oh, and you’ll be debt free and get to play with guns. I can’t see how it gets any better than that.

[Blakey]

If only there were some way an enterprising young Air Cadet could get some assistance with flight training.....

https://bc-aircadetleague.com/regional- ... t-courses/

[Mostly Harmless]

Look, sport.

No one is ENTITLED to the career of their choice, without waiting, without sacrifice. That word doesn't exist in my vocabulary, for starters. Novel concept, I know.

It will take whatever time is required to save the money desired. Again not complicated.

I was working part time stuff at age 10 --
Real jobs from 15. Evenings and weekends till 2 am sometimes. I'm talking the dirtiest crap jobs imaginable.
Full time + Multiple jobs from 18. No money to finish college. Supported myself entirely. Not a dime from parents. Living In Sh--hole basement suites. Eating the cheapest crap.
Almost no debt, though.
--------------------------------
Many others here, I'm sure have a similar path.
---------------------------
Run a successful business today. Maybe not a coincidence?

When kids are willing to all of that First -- Then I'll have more empathy. Until then forgive me if it's limited.

Edit -- want a piece of advice, kids? Don't buy a new car. Like, ever. Buy a cheap used POS and learn to fix it. Same for everything else. That's a start.

Sport.... ha, ha, ha, ha... that's a great one.

I never said anyone was entitled to anything. I paid for my licence, worked my time, had my own business too. I think you missed the point that:

1. A lot of the answers are Ontario-centric and do not apply to the rest of the country. It's the only province that pays to make pilots.
2. Your answer was not at all helpful. It was curt and useless.

If I had to do this whole thing over again, I wouldn't be able to afford it today. The relative cost of a MIFR/Comm licence is out of the reach of anyone who grew up in my income bracket. So, while it's lovely to read about how much harder you worked than everyone else, you need to look at things like inflation when you are basing your advice on your life experience. I'm told that the prices range from $105,000 to $120,000 for a college program these days.... to come out into a $20,000/year job. Frankly, my advice is to find something you love doing that isn't flying and go do that, then fly as a hobby.

Now, the new car advice.. that's at least somewhat helpful. I'm so far removed from flight training now that I have no idea what resources are available but someone here who does know could offer actual advice.

So, climb off the high horse so you don't have to look down on us sports.

[l_reason]

Buy a plane! Hear me out for a minute.

-Get a job, try to behave so you can live with mom and dad and save a few grand.
-buy a cheap Toyota car $1500 max
-Get a bank loan (20k) and find a cheap C-150 with a 1/2 time engine and a transponder, owner maintained or certified.
-If you are really smart you'll bust your ass to get a job sweeping the floors at an AMO.
-Maintenance will be cheap and the ppl you got in cadets will keep you in the air.
-Start the AME apprenticeship process, do the courses at the same time.
-Find an instructor/school that will teach you, night rating, CPL, IFR. Offer your plane to the instructor as payment, you may find someone that wants to use a plane on the side in lieu of cash.
-find a couple young Jazz/Porter/Encore/CMA/Georgian FO's to rent your C-150 ($80/hr dry) because they need PIC/night. They will be your references when you are job hunting later.
-finish the CPL & MIFR with the help of all the friends you've made.
-23-24 years old AME, CPL, MIFR, with 300+ hours in your log book.


The costs to own a C-150 look something like this.
20k loan $400/m, Tie down $40/m, insurance $1100/y full coverage, annual $1500, gas is $1.70/L X 20L/h=$34/h, Phillips oil is $80/case. The C-150 will still be worth 20K when you are done with it.

[rookiepilot]

Look, sport.

No one is ENTITLED to the career of their choice, without waiting, without sacrifice. That word doesn't exist in my vocabulary, for starters. Novel concept, I know.

It will take whatever time is required to save the money desired. Again not complicated.

I was working part time stuff at age 10 --
Real jobs from 15. Evenings and weekends till 2 am sometimes. I'm talking the dirtiest crap jobs imaginable.
Full time + Multiple jobs from 18. No money to finish college. Supported myself entirely. Not a dime from parents. Living In Sh--hole basement suites. Eating the cheapest crap.
Almost no debt, though.
--------------------------------
Many others here, I'm sure have a similar path.
---------------------------
Run a successful business today. Maybe not a coincidence?

When kids are willing to all of that First -- Then I'll have more empathy. Until then forgive me if it's limited.

Edit -- want a piece of advice, kids? Don't buy a new car. Like, ever. Buy a cheap used POS and learn to fix it. Same for everything else. That's a start.

Sport.... ha, ha, ha, ha... that's a great one.

I never said anyone was entitled to anything. I paid for my licence, worked my time, had my own business too. I think you missed the point that:

1. A lot of the answers are Ontario-centric and do not apply to the rest of the country. It's the only province that pays to make pilots.
2. Your answer was not at all helpful. It was curt and useless.

If I had to do this whole thing over again, I wouldn't be able to afford it today. The relative cost of a MIFR/Comm licence is out of the reach of anyone who grew up in my income bracket. So, while it's lovely to read about how much harder you worked than everyone else, you need to look at things like inflation when you are basing your advice on your life experience. I'm told that the prices range from $105,000 to $120,000 for a college program these days.... to come out into a $20,000/year job. Frankly, my advice is to find something you love doing that isn't flying and go do that, then fly as a hobby.

Now, the new car advice.. that's at least somewhat helpful. I'm so far removed from flight training now that I have no idea what resources are available but someone here who does know could offer actual advice.

So, climb off the high horse so you don't have to look down on us sports.

Mostly Harmless.

Many of us on this blog worked very hard to pay for licenses (and everything else in life)

Advocation of Working hard is not on any "high horse".

The entiltled, and by your comments you buy into that attitude, are really the ones on a high horse -- expecting others to pay for flights of fancy. I don't buy that, and I'm not shy about calling it as I see it. And that, my friend, is what kids need. Someone to be brutally honest, not the safe zones and mollycoddling that is acceptable today.

i have Zero patience for that.

What happened to the business you "had" BTW?

And finally more advice: A lot of post secondary education, and the outrageous amounts charged, by teachers who've never survived a day in the real world, is an unbelievable scam.

Just say no. Any employer who demands it, (A degree) isn't worth even applying, IMO.