Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

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Cliff Jumper
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

Post by Cliff Jumper »

Inverted2 wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:06 pm I've seen lots of sea planes that have flipped over on landing. Damaged yes but this one was completely destroyed. I doubt a factory built airplane would break up that badly on a landing mishap. Looks more like hitting water at high speed.
I have no idea what he was doing, but I disagree with this statement, especially regarding flying boats.

I seem to remember an account recently on this site about a flying boat landing mishap that ended quite badly.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

Post by pdw »

In thinking about what Cliff is saying there ... (and about "hitting the water at high speed") ..

The bulk of the drag of the fuselage area (its drag being a fair ways below the engine assembly) will naturally add some downturn-force when power added, and probably more pronounced when gotten S L O W (or relatively lower airspeed for a landing procedure). Seeing that the engine is centered heightwise about the middle of this wing means flaps-on drag (highest drag the wing itself can make) is produced approximately even with the engine centre thrust, ie: flaps thirty is the most drag up there so naturally counters some of the thrust the engine makes when full power is commanded. The downturn effect of more-sudden increase of thrust there at winglevel would be from power levered in the slowed approach to land (or inadvertantly S L O W E D at lowalt in low flight) where serious lowalt power-up requirement stems from unexpected IAS-bleedoff on account of NO FLAP DEPLOYMENT (ie April1/NTSB); seems to me such sudden power addition then frees exta thrust that adds downturn/downpitch on account of the resulting zero flaps-drag (the missing drag of mistaken flaps-up) ... ie: the full power/no flap in reduced drag up high happens while the slipstream-drag of the bulky boat-fuselage is still going on down low as usual.

EDIT (FOR GRAMMAR):
That better ?
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Last edited by pdw on Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:28 pm, edited 9 times in total.
'97 Tercel
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

Post by '97 Tercel »

Jeez, I feel dumb reading your posts...
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

'97 Tercel wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:55 pm Jeez, I feel dumb reading your posts...
Thank god. I was just confused!
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pdw
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

Post by pdw »

TeePeeCreeper wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:39 pm
'97 Tercel wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:55 pm Jeez, I feel dumb reading your posts...
Thank god. I was just confused!
Mainthing that's becoming clearer is being sure of upwind to land and with flap (and also if already so near the watersurface in just overflying) for a slower touch/touchdown, ie 30degflap stallspeed is established as "39kts" /NTSB report May8. Then hopefully won't see more "66kt" no-flap impacts in a downwind from a "lowalt" (seeing wx-records actually support inadvertant "downwind" entry for both past accidents) esp if production finds a suitable win win verbage for the subject of safety at the sales level.

How the aerodynamics behaved exactly when getting into the S L O W -flight-regimen/April1/NTSB with"no flap" and seeing there: then while recovering from said "too slow" and "close" went to "full power" input but to no avail .. which was IMO not really described 100% there either.

Now we can watch for the report of the "Nov 7" tragedy to have actual speed, impact angle and how it sets up. Judging by the previous NTSB work and the data supposedly retrievable from this aircraft's avionics, that information should all become available upon release.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

Post by PilotDAR »

It is true that an unexpected change in wind direction, the use or not of flaps, or the misunderstanding/awareness of stall speed may be factors in an accident. However, if any of those factors become causal in that accident, the pilot had already got themselves into a really bad place.

Pilots flying water aircraft must approach any over water or maneuvering type flying with a very different mindset than "land" pilots. There is a misconceived sense of freedom flying over the water, seemingly away from "airport" or other airspace which is overseen, allowing some freedom in maneuvering which is not there for landplane pilots - wrong! It is alarmingly easy to misjudge distance/altitude/attitude over water, or in canyon environments. 300 feet is nothing to an error in judgement, easy miss. Maneuvering an aircraft to within 300 feet of anything beyond the centerline of a runway is sadly difficult for most pilots. So a pilot who flies into a situation where his required precision for separation is 300 feet is a fool. They're already in too deep to receive the benefit of wind awareness, flap position, or stall speed awareness.

Stall speed is G dependent. A pilot who gets them self into trouble maneuvering in a tight area, or low altitude is going to pull. Pulling increases G, and stall speed. I defy a pilot to tell me the stall speed of their aircraft while they are pulling G, and not having a G meter - guesswork at best, complete unknown more likely.

It is not possible to prevent an accident by assuring that the pilot is aware and attentive to the winds, flap position, or stall speed, and yet they're ignoring the danger of their confined maneuvering environment. The pilot is going to have the accident anyway. A confined maneuvering environment may be simply low altitude, and nothing more. I do not have a table for a "safe" bank angle for 300 feet altitude, but 45 degree is not it for a low experience pilot. The fact that an aircraft manufacturer seems to normalize it does not make it safe. Enough training to begin to make a pilot safe doing this would most likely make that pilot afraid of doing it!

So, new, low experience pilots, particularly of water aircraft , do not think that you can low fly and maneuver at low altitude, and into canyons - doing that is dangerous. There are a number of accidents to prove this, and although the reports might mention winds, flap position, or stall speed, it is unlikely that these are causal factors, but low altitude ('could be because of low ceiling), confined areas, and aggressive maneuvering are often reported as factors. Pilots who survive, spend a lot of time overflying landing or maneuvering areas at altitude, and formulating safety plans. They conduct any maneuvering at a suitably high altitude, fly something like a circuit to approach for landing, and do not fly near the stall speed, much less increase it by pulling G.

There may be something like a jetski with wings, but such a machine has no business being maneuvered in three dimensions like a jetski. A pilot who flies such an aircraft as though it is a fighter is immature. If a pilot would like to fly aggressive maneuvering, there are aircraft designed for that - they don't land on the water. Pilots must make their choice: Low maneuvering, cautious at all times, careful landing on the water, of tumbling in the mirth at altitude in a plane designed to do it, with a G meter!
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

Post by Cat Driver »

Pilots must make their choice: Low maneuvering, cautious at all times, careful landing on the water, of tumbling in the mirth at altitude in a plane designed to do it, with a G meter !
Or even better a AOA indicator.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

Post by CL-Skadoo! »

That's the answer right there.
Unfortunately...
Do you think many pilots these days know what that is or the implications of having such a magical instrument?
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

Post by Cat Driver »

Good question.

I sure hope aviation training has not slipped so low that the basics of aerodynamics are not taught.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

Post by Heliian »

The AOA indicator is front and center on the a5 panel. I think they even mentioned it earlier in development as a key safety feature.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

Post by PilotDAR »

No cockpit indicator assures that a pilot who has placed the aircraft in a precarious situation will safely escape that. It may serve as a good oh sh*t when the pilot realizes that there is no reserve to pull into to save the day. But, by that point, their eyes are out, very big, and searching for a path out - which may not exist. These accidents are airmanship issues, not the failure of an airplane. Possibly, the low flying culture seemingly promoted by Icon lured these pilots into the situation, but ultimately, there are safe flying techniques available to pilots to prevent these unsafe situations. It seems that these good airmanship techniques were not being employed.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

Post by waterdog »

Black box data is out from the initial report of the NTSB.

3.3 meters off the water at 170 km/h before he goes into a steep climb and then looks like he stalled it and spun it in.....

Here is the link.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/mlb/r ... -1.4411166
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

Post by CpnCrunch »

I think Icon have only themselves to blame for selling this thing as a jetski with wings to low-time pilots and saying it's ok to fly it low. They really need to make the thing un-stallable if they want to do this. Although even then, someone is probably still going to crash it into a wire.

The Warrior/Archer wing is pretty stall proof, but I'm not sure what happens if you do a 45 degree climb.I suspect it isn't going to drop out of the sky. Or there's the Ercoupe, which apparently was un-stallable. Not quite as cool as the Icon though.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

Post by PilotDAR »

there's the Ercoupe, which apparently was un-stallable
During my days of adventure, I deliberately stalled and spun an unsuspecting Ercoupe. It's not easy to do, and you obviously can't hold it into the spin, but I got it to drop a wing. However, I had to maneuver it abusively steep climbing turn type stuff - sorta like I think I have seen in Icon flying....

It is responsible flying which is required - a good pilot attitude should assure good plane attitude.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

Post by pelmet »

PilotDAR wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:07 am
there's the Ercoupe, which apparently was un-stallable
During my days of adventure, I deliberately stalled and spun an unsuspecting Ercoupe. It's not easy to do, and you obviously can't hold it into the spin, but I got it to drop a wing. However, I had to maneuver it abusively steep climbing turn type stuff - sorta like I think I have seen in Icon flying....

It is responsible flying which is required - a good pilot attitude should assure good plane attitude.
I have flown an Ercoupe. It barely has any up elevator deflection. That being said, the instructor warned me about avoiding a high sink rate on final by keeping some power on. I suppose a high sink rate landing short of the runway that is not officially a stall might have similar results.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

Post by pdw »

waterdog wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:21 pmhe goes into a steep climb and then looks like he stalled it and spun it in.....
Here is the link.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/mlb/r ... -1.4411166
There's the reference in there again ... said it felt "like flying a figher jet" (mentioned a few times already / keeps coming up). Lucky stroke ...I've rechecked wx-records for the decreased performance shear event going on right there / right at noon .. closest working wx-station is Gulf Harbor Villas ONLY 2-3 miles east of the accident; easy to check/confirm for all to see. (The report gives KPIE weather 17NM southeast .. calm .. ... but that is too far away for the shear reference. The true numbers are pretty strong ... actually ...

Intrigued by this recurring fighter jet comment, I took another look at the fighter (TSB report) that tilted/spun also from 300agl July 23 2010/noon in practise for Lethbridge airshow (you know .. that moonwalk thing they like to do) :
The report says/records the F18 pilot (in that spilt second) had thought the initial sink maybe wx-related. I'm beginning to think he is correct to a point ... if an F18 fighter is also capable of doing that from 300ft when so close to its stall speed in similar screwy component conditions ...

Forget the Ercoup .. IMO we're now comparing a possible fighter jet maneuvre ...
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

Post by CpnCrunch »

pdw wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:39 pm The report says/records the F18 pilot (in that spilt second) had thought the initial sink maybe wx-related. I'm beginning to think he is correct to a point ... if an F18 fighter is also capable of doing that from 300ft when so close to its stall speed in similar screwy component conditions ...

Forget the Ercoup .. IMO we're now comparing a possible fighter jet maneuvre ...
Well it was actually caused by a stuck boost piston:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/na ... le6220481/

I guess that pilot had been reading too much avcanada and he thought his F-18 had just crashed due to some variable tailwinds. Nothing to do with this accident though...
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

Post by pdw »

It wasn't as simple as the spin in the news, but in the report ... the "piston" failure made the escape with AFB impossible once things went wrong at 300ft agl and had to abort. Wx-data too sparse to show what exactly going on (as per the wx-comment by the F18 pilot written into the report).

I think its right to take the closer looks to understand how exactly this happened there over the ocean ...

EDIT: (for "RookiePilot" below).
That's simply my attempt at due-diligence in not wanting to mis-identify the actual accident sequence .. for fear that's also going to risk hurting a "new pilot" who mis-reads .. where a unique shear-signature gets completely igored in a synopsis.

It's true, the 'burning around low over the water in all directions' (PIlotDar et al) is something to avoid all by itself ... something that so obviously led into this accident .. something that perhaps even every aspiring pilot might so wrongly be dreaming about, or have dreamt about doing, at one point or another ..

The best/closest shear indicator info for this accident time/location (on shore nearest the accident):
Surface WX-Station # KFLNEWP065 (Gulf Harbor Villas component)
11:58am - North at 8.7km
12:04pm - West at 4.3km
12:16pm -South at 10.8km
(air temp difference up to 10F )
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Last edited by pdw on Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:46 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

Post by rookiepilot »

pdw wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:12 pm It wasn't as simple as the spin in the news, but in the report ... the "piston" failure made the escape with AFB impossible once things went wrong at 300ft agl and had to abort. Wx-data too sparse to show what exactly going on (as per the wx-comment by the F18 pilot written into the report).

I think its right to take the closer looks to understand how exactly this happened there over the ocean ...

PDW. Sometimes things other than weather cause accidents.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

Post by PilotDAR »

Sometimes things other than weather cause accidents.
Agreed. In four decades of flying, I never thought to myself, "wow, that was close, that changing wind nearly got me". I have experienced varying winds, and I have errantly landed downwind. I just kept flying the plane, and it all worked.

Of course, the accident pilot would love to say to the investigator "Oooo, a totally unexpected tailwind caused the accident", but that does not mean that was a factor. The Icon accident under discussion was the result of a jetski pilot, flying as though he were zooming around the lake in all directions. The previous Icon accident was not a lot different - the experienced pilot, for whatever reason, ignored some of the basic wisdom of water flying and maneuvering, and succumbed as so many other have before. These accidents become recent, memorable events, useful for training:

"Hey, new pilot, these medium and high time pilots died doing very similar low altitude flying. What are you going to do differently?"

I hope new water pilots are really nervous about blundering into these circumstances, crashing and dying - I am! I'll observe the winds, fly with adequate caution and reserve of safety, but I won't be blaming the winds, should I have an accident (well, one where I was flying!).
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