how do kids afford this racket???

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Minimums
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Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by Minimums »

Want the simplest, easy way, with no debt, a degree, and pilots license and a guaranteed job at Air Canada off the street when your done?

Join the military

You’ll also get paid, and be banking a pension while you are learnin.

I know blokes who worked at it in the bush, sluggged it out at a small operator and are just now gettin to the regionals hoping for an AC seat, some even got shot down (no degree), and all of’em got pennies for retirement, moved more than they have fingers on their hands, and are still chasin the dream, and they ain’t done yet.

Join the forces, make some comrades buddies, get taught, get paid, and in 15 years you’ll be farther ahead in life with waaaay cooler stories than those other blokes that mom and dad paid to go to school.

Oh, and you’ll be debt free and get to play with guns. I can’t see how it gets any better than that.
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Blakey
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Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by Blakey »

If only there were some way an enterprising young Air Cadet could get some assistance with flight training.....

https://bc-aircadetleague.com/regional- ... t-courses/
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Mostly Harmless
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Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by Mostly Harmless »

rookiepilot wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:28 am Look, sport.

No one is ENTITLED to the career of their choice, without waiting, without sacrifice. That word doesn't exist in my vocabulary, for starters. Novel concept, I know.

It will take whatever time is required to save the money desired. Again not complicated.

I was working part time stuff at age 10 --
Real jobs from 15. Evenings and weekends till 2 am sometimes. I'm talking the dirtiest crap jobs imaginable.
Full time + Multiple jobs from 18. No money to finish college. Supported myself entirely. Not a dime from parents. Living In Sh--hole basement suites. Eating the cheapest crap.
Almost no debt, though.
--------------------------------
Many others here, I'm sure have a similar path.
---------------------------
Run a successful business today. Maybe not a coincidence?

When kids are willing to all of that First -- Then I'll have more empathy. Until then forgive me if it's limited.

Edit -- want a piece of advice, kids? Don't buy a new car. Like, ever. Buy a cheap used POS and learn to fix it. Same for everything else. That's a start.
Sport.... ha, ha, ha, ha... that's a great one.

I never said anyone was entitled to anything. I paid for my licence, worked my time, had my own business too. I think you missed the point that:

1. A lot of the answers are Ontario-centric and do not apply to the rest of the country. It's the only province that pays to make pilots.
2. Your answer was not at all helpful. It was curt and useless.

If I had to do this whole thing over again, I wouldn't be able to afford it today. The relative cost of a MIFR/Comm licence is out of the reach of anyone who grew up in my income bracket. So, while it's lovely to read about how much harder you worked than everyone else, you need to look at things like inflation when you are basing your advice on your life experience. I'm told that the prices range from $105,000 to $120,000 for a college program these days.... to come out into a $20,000/year job. Frankly, my advice is to find something you love doing that isn't flying and go do that, then fly as a hobby.

Now, the new car advice.. that's at least somewhat helpful. I'm so far removed from flight training now that I have no idea what resources are available but someone here who does know could offer actual advice.

So, climb off the high horse so you don't have to look down on us sports.
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l_reason
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Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by l_reason »

Buy a plane! Hear me out for a minute.

-Get a job, try to behave so you can live with mom and dad and save a few grand.
-buy a cheap Toyota car $1500 max
-Get a bank loan (20k) and find a cheap C-150 with a 1/2 time engine and a transponder, owner maintained or certified.
-If you are really smart you'll bust your ass to get a job sweeping the floors at an AMO.
-Maintenance will be cheap and the ppl you got in cadets will keep you in the air.
-Start the AME apprenticeship process, do the courses at the same time.
-Find an instructor/school that will teach you, night rating, CPL, IFR. Offer your plane to the instructor as payment, you may find someone that wants to use a plane on the side in lieu of cash.
-find a couple young Jazz/Porter/Encore/CMA/Georgian FO's to rent your C-150 ($80/hr dry) because they need PIC/night. They will be your references when you are job hunting later.
-finish the CPL & MIFR with the help of all the friends you've made.
-23-24 years old AME, CPL, MIFR, with 300+ hours in your log book.


The costs to own a C-150 look something like this.
20k loan $400/m, Tie down $40/m, insurance $1100/y full coverage, annual $1500, gas is $1.70/L X 20L/h=$34/h, Phillips oil is $80/case. The C-150 will still be worth 20K when you are done with it.
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rookiepilot
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Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by rookiepilot »

Mostly Harmless wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:43 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:28 am Look, sport.

No one is ENTITLED to the career of their choice, without waiting, without sacrifice. That word doesn't exist in my vocabulary, for starters. Novel concept, I know.

It will take whatever time is required to save the money desired. Again not complicated.

I was working part time stuff at age 10 --
Real jobs from 15. Evenings and weekends till 2 am sometimes. I'm talking the dirtiest crap jobs imaginable.
Full time + Multiple jobs from 18. No money to finish college. Supported myself entirely. Not a dime from parents. Living In Sh--hole basement suites. Eating the cheapest crap.
Almost no debt, though.
--------------------------------
Many others here, I'm sure have a similar path.
---------------------------
Run a successful business today. Maybe not a coincidence?

When kids are willing to all of that First -- Then I'll have more empathy. Until then forgive me if it's limited.

Edit -- want a piece of advice, kids? Don't buy a new car. Like, ever. Buy a cheap used POS and learn to fix it. Same for everything else. That's a start.
Sport.... ha, ha, ha, ha... that's a great one.

I never said anyone was entitled to anything. I paid for my licence, worked my time, had my own business too. I think you missed the point that:

1. A lot of the answers are Ontario-centric and do not apply to the rest of the country. It's the only province that pays to make pilots.
2. Your answer was not at all helpful. It was curt and useless.

If I had to do this whole thing over again, I wouldn't be able to afford it today. The relative cost of a MIFR/Comm licence is out of the reach of anyone who grew up in my income bracket. So, while it's lovely to read about how much harder you worked than everyone else, you need to look at things like inflation when you are basing your advice on your life experience. I'm told that the prices range from $105,000 to $120,000 for a college program these days.... to come out into a $20,000/year job. Frankly, my advice is to find something you love doing that isn't flying and go do that, then fly as a hobby.

Now, the new car advice.. that's at least somewhat helpful. I'm so far removed from flight training now that I have no idea what resources are available but someone here who does know could offer actual advice.

So, climb off the high horse so you don't have to look down on us sports.

Mostly Harmless.

Many of us on this blog worked very hard to pay for licenses (and everything else in life)

Advocation of Working hard is not on any "high horse".

The entiltled, and by your comments you buy into that attitude, are really the ones on a high horse -- expecting others to pay for flights of fancy. I don't buy that, and I'm not shy about calling it as I see it. And that, my friend, is what kids need. Someone to be brutally honest, not the safe zones and mollycoddling that is acceptable today.

i have Zero patience for that.

What happened to the business you "had" BTW?

And finally more advice: A lot of post secondary education, and the outrageous amounts charged, by teachers who've never survived a day in the real world, is an unbelievable scam.

Just say no. Any employer who demands it, (A degree) isn't worth even applying, IMO.
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Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by Cat Driver »

During my fifty one years as a working pilot I was never asked how much education I had.

Incidentally I don't have much but I obviously did not need much to be successful as a pilot.

As long as you can read and write you can fly anything that is out there.
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Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by plhought »

Honestly,

The few times I've been around the flying club/schools in the last year, after some brief chit-chat with students here & there - I would argue the majority of students are coming from quite affluent backgrounds, in which the majority of their schooling/lifestyle is supplemented by family funding.

That's fine and all really - can't fault someone for utilizing what is available for them.

I know we love the "rags-to-riches" story, but I honestly believe the flying profession is slowly becoming an exclusive prevue of the wealthy.
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Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by confusedalot »

Don't have much to contribute since the costs were different in my day, but here goes.

I was lucky enough to get accepted into a completely funded aviation college program, but it was far from home, so I had part time and summer jobs to fund myself.

After the program was finished, the industry was dead as a doornail, and a flying instructors rating seemed to be the only way to go, which was not provided by the college. Had a full time job, and strange as it sounds, it was luckily 4 to midnight or midnight to 8. Which left the day open to do my training.

That was a good 40 years ago mind you, ended up with zero debt after training. Got the entry level instructor job and after that, off to the races.

Once again, perhaps not much help in these times but perhaps, with some flexibility and a bit of luck, it can be managed.

Cheers,
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Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by rookiepilot »

Look, not to be sarcastic, but someone on here awhile back, their answer was a gofundme account. It's like hey, I don't want to work, so random strangers -- (please) give me money.

Gofundme has morphed from a way to help people in crisis, to essentially an online form of begging. Cause I'm entitled.


Great if it works. A question though.

When one succeeds in this way -- charity vs perseverance-- what does that do to ones character? How does this approach in helping overcome much bigger personal and professional challenges in the future -- when on the first one -- its "give me money"?
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Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by HansDietrich »

I came here from Europe with nothing, except a suitcase and dreams. I do have an university degree and I was able to work fairly good paying jobs. I had a room mate, saved money had a shit car and the girlfriend left me because I was working full time in the office and flight training in the weekends. It took me 4 years to finish all my licenses and ratings, because I didn't want to borrow money... for the most part (a few small loans to accelerate training). I've been debt free almost from the day I started working as pilot, which guess what? IT WASN'T AT THE AGE OF 22. So, like I said before, IF your mom can't help you, if the banks won't help you, if your girlfriend won't help you, shut the hell up, go to work, stop spending money and work hard for that dream you really claim you want.

You think life gets easier when you're done your CPL and MUlti IFR? Trying living with kids and making 40K a year... Don't tell me it can't be done. Don't find excuses for your laziness and short sighted character. Instant gratification is something all these new kids seem to demand! I hate when people tell me "Oh man you're so lucky to be a pilot" Lucky??? I worked my ass off to be a pilot. I'm not lucky... I'm hard working and I didn't give up.
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Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by rookiepilot »

Woman walks up to a famous violinist after he plays a magnificent concerto.

"Sir, I'd give everything to be able to play as you do".

He replies, "madam, I did".

--------------------

People ask me what the secret to success in business is. Listen carefully -- it's really complicated, but if you can pull it off, you will forever have little competition.

Outwork everyone, and outlast the adversity.
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Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by PROC_HDG »

HansDietrich wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:42 pm You think life gets easier when you're done your CPL and MUlti IFR? Try Flying A Classic Dash-8!!
oops, wrong thread

PROC_HDG
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Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by AOW »

Mostly Harmless wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:26 am
While the university programs don't include flight training in their tuition, Confederation College and Sault College do. OSAP would be an option there.
Seneca College's degree program includes the flight training in the tuition too, I believe, but the tuition costs are much higher than the two other colleges, and I am not sure whether OSAP will cover this.


Not everyone in Canada lives in Ontario. So what do the other 22.4 million Canadians who live without government subsidised flight training do?
Since the OP mentioned OSAP, I made the assumption they were in Ontario. I was trying to answer a specific question, rather than the general case.

If one of the subsidized programs is not available to you, and you can't afford to pay as you go at a flight school, then the military is probably the best option.

Or do what I did and marry someone with a little more money, and preferably a family airplane. I wonder if that appears in any Tinder profiles...
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Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by TailwheelPilot »

Mostly Harmless wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:43 pmI'm told that the prices range from $105,000 to $120,000 for a college program these days.... to come out into a $20,000/year job.
How about $18,008 excluding accommodation and food to come out into a $20,000/year job?
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Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by HansDietrich »

PROC_HDG wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:48 pm
HansDietrich wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:42 pm You think life gets easier when you're done your CPL and MUlti IFR? Try Flying A Classic Dash-8!!
oops, wrong thread

PROC_HDG
I think your "Quote option" may have malfunctioned, but none the less, point taken :D Flying the Classic is like driving a Dodge Shadow; sure it gets you places, but not very exciting...
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Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by cgzro »

i remember paying for about 200 hours over 3 years by working 3 nights a week as a busboy then waiter in a restaurant. Lived at home and did not have a car. Was very hard work to get an hour or two each week. i think it worked out to two nights of work for one hour of dual or something like that and of course no car meant reduced dating.

There is no short cut, its a tough slog but as with a lot of education, if you can get it while staying at home you are way ahead.
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Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by complexintentions »

My favourite is recreational pilots giving advice to pilots intending to make a living at it.

Yes, the tremendous sacrifice it took to get that PPL is totally analogous to slogging it out for years at the lower end of the industry wage spectrum until you hold an ATPL and a collection of ratings at an airline.

Financially totally the same. :roll:

Actually I wouldn't mind if it was just well-intentioned advice, but when it's basically just an excuse to rant and humble-brag a bit about their perilous life-path, *yawn*...
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Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by youhavecontrol »

For those of you sitting back right now offering your "Just work, it's good for ya!" "builds character.." Here's some thoughts on that from my experience:

I did not have a wealthy family, grew up in rural Alberta and lived far away from the Air Cadet program bases. I wanted as little debt as possible because I knew that initial aviation jobs had low pay.

I worked in the oil patch for about 5 years total to pay for my tuition. Why did it take that long so save up money? ...mostly because I was also paying to live in the mean-time, and I wasn't very smart with my money.. like most youth. Plus, the down-turn in the economy I had to switch jobs part-way through because the one company I was with could not keep me busy enough. I was working in the oil patch, but the most I ever made per hour was $28, because I wasn't committed to staying with that company... basically, they knew I was going to leave for flight training so there was no point in training me for heavy equipment operation ($$)

Oh yeah, and I did work part time jobs while in high-school, as early as 14. ..but do you seriously think that the $8 an hour for 4 hours, 3 times a week was enough to save up anything substantial? It had barely enough McCash to pay for my crappo car to travel to work, buy my first laptop, and that was about it.

Consider this.. how many kids can actually get a job that allows them to put back the $60-70k needed for tuition right out of high-school in less than two years? While still paying to live on their own? Without choosing a dangerous job?

One of my work friends was a pilot who worked the oilfield to help pay off his tuition costs. He was killed on the job and I saw it happen. I was 19 when I saw it happen.

Like others have said, there really is no easy option. For me, it was hard work... and yes it did build character, but it did take a lot of time and definitely wasn't some simple, easy thing. I remember the burst of motivation I got while looking up as the pipe-line patrol aircraft would fly overhead. Some days, seeing that Citabria fly over was a joy... while other days it was agony.
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Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by rookiepilot »

complexintentions wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:16 am My favourite is recreational pilots giving advice to pilots intending to make a living at it.

Yes, the tremendous sacrifice it took to get that PPL is totally analogous to slogging it out for years at the lower end of the industry wage spectrum until you hold an ATPL and a collection of ratings at an airline.

Financially totally the same. :roll:

Actually I wouldn't mind if it was just well-intentioned advice, but when it's basically just an excuse to rant and humble-brag a bit about their perilous life-path, *yawn*...
Haters always gotta hate people who have achieved in life. Don't like my comments, don't have to read, just shut up then. And FWIW, Happen to have a CPL, Loser.

Edit ----

Here's a link useful for the next downturn, when the "ATPL and collection of ratings at an airline" -- you SO love to trumpet -- is reduced to squares of TP.

https://www.gofundme.com/?pc=thrive_goo ... gLUf_D_BwE
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by atphat »

complexintentions wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:16 am My favourite is recreational pilots giving advice to pilots intending to make a living at it.

Yes, the tremendous sacrifice it took to get that PPL is totally analogous to slogging it out for years at the lower end of the industry wage spectrum until you hold an ATPL and a collection of ratings at an airline.

Financially totally the same. :roll:

Actually I wouldn't mind if it was just well-intentioned advice, but when it's basically just an excuse to rant and humble-brag a bit about their perilous life-path, *yawn*...
Yawn indeed.
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