Missing airplane on flight from Penticton to Edmonton

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Notapilot1
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Re: Missing airplane on flight from Penticton to Edmonton

Post by Notapilot1 »

IMG_0143.jpg
IMG_0143.jpg (555.75 KiB) Viewed 3041 times
I just received this map, it may be helpful.
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Missing airplane on flight from Penticton to Edmonton

Post by CpnCrunch »

Yeah, I think the weather is very different today. Right now there's a high pressure system, so it's probably mostly ground fog. The GFA is saying the clouds are topping out at 6000ft. You could in theory go over that layer today, but you'd need to make sure you had sufficient fuel and that Golden is clear (or wherever you have fuel to get to with a reserve).

I think on the day in question it was more of a low pressure system blowing in moisture from the Pacific, which will tend to generate clouds as it blows up the valleys. More dangerous as you will tend to be under the clouds, which could suddenly close up in the valleys. (I'm not a weather forecaster, so please correct me if I've got this wrong).
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Notapilot1
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Re: Missing airplane on flight from Penticton to Edmonton

Post by Notapilot1 »

Wheeler Hut and surrounding area is being searched today.
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Notapilot1
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Re: Missing airplane on flight from Penticton to Edmonton

Post by Notapilot1 »

Is Revelstoke Airport unmanned?
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cncpc
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Re: Missing airplane on flight from Penticton to Edmonton

Post by cncpc »

CpnCrunch wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:09 am Yeah, I think the weather is very different today. Right now there's a high pressure system, so it's probably mostly ground fog. The GFA is saying the clouds are topping out at 6000ft. You could in theory go over that layer today, but you'd need to make sure you had sufficient fuel and that Golden is clear (or wherever you have fuel to get to with a reserve).

I think on the day in question it was more of a low pressure system blowing in moisture from the Pacific, which will tend to generate clouds as it blows up the valleys. More dangerous as you will tend to be under the clouds, which could suddenly close up in the valleys. (I'm not a weather forecaster, so please correct me if I've got this wrong).
You've got in right.
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cncpc
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Re: Missing airplane on flight from Penticton to Edmonton

Post by cncpc »

Notapilot1 wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:28 pm Is Revelstoke Airport unmanned?
If you mean communications, yes. I think Dave and Ed from Silvertip manage the airport.
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pdw
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Re: Missing airplane on flight from Penticton to Edmonton

Post by pdw »

FYI Notapilot:
The simple Azimuth Card technique works for every witness sighting of a moving object above, for the most reliable numbers in the abscence of tracking data. What direction (facing) when suddenly looking over the shoulder and seeing/hearing etc etc. Accurate positioning, speed data, direction(s) and time-data comes clearer when using the carefully filled-in info. Experienced searchers can always revisit a proper detail of that data for other/better calculation, when knowing it is documented as correctly as possible.
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dazednconfused
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Re: Missing airplane on flight from Penticton to Edmonton

Post by dazednconfused »

Notapilot1 wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:16 am Thanks, dazednconfused. If you look at the map I posted previously it shows that the tower at Fidelity Mountain was pinged at 10:32 and 10:36.
Sorry, my fault. I did not realize there were cell phone pings at Fidelity into the evening.
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Notapilot1
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Re: Missing airplane on flight from Penticton to Edmonton

Post by Notapilot1 »

Quite alright, there is a lot of information being provided.
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cncpc
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Re: Missing airplane on flight from Penticton to Edmonton

Post by cncpc »

Notapilot1 wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:32 pm Quite alright, there is a lot of information being provided.
Small update. It seems that it is not known what tower pinged or received reply around 10:30. Fidelity tower received a connection with one of the phones on board at a time when the aircraft was likely still in the air.
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Missing airplane on flight from Penticton to Edmonton

Post by CpnCrunch »

cncpc wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:48 pm Small update. It seems that it is not known what tower pinged or received reply around 10:30. Fidelity tower received a connection with one of the phones on board at a time when the aircraft was likely still in the air.
That would seem to be pretty crucial information for search and rescue.
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cncpc
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Re: Missing airplane on flight from Penticton to Edmonton

Post by cncpc »

CpnCrunch wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:05 pm
cncpc wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:48 pm Small update. It seems that it is not known what tower pinged or received reply around 10:30. Fidelity tower received a connection with one of the phones on board at a time when the aircraft was likely still in the air.
That would seem to be pretty crucial information for search and rescue.
They are aware of it.
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anofly
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Re: Missing airplane on flight from Penticton to Edmonton

Post by anofly »

is there any info that indicates they had turned around and headed back towards revelstoke? man i would love to have a chat with the folks at the hut, and the snowmobilers.... Somehow i tend to think if they went by the hut,low, and ended say south of the hut somewhere, the cell would not have been picked up at 10:30 ish...
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pdw
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Re: Missing airplane on flight from Penticton to Edmonton

Post by pdw »

snowmobilers
at Arthur Canyon / Canyon Hot Springs at "3:30pm".
Wheeler Hut
(sighting)

Calculations in groundspeed places this particular sighting/location IN TIME about 16-18 minutes after that snowmobiler sighting. The time range translates to a neigbourhood of 3:47pm, then can add some distance for the turnaround, if passing somewhere overhead the WH witness before turning the opposite direction back to re-establish contact with the lost TCH (perhaps aimed more northwest or west to intercept) ie in poor vis .. or you're thinkng maybe chose to return / the reciprocal ? There's at least another 5nm/ 3min before reaching the highway westbound, ie if successfully skirting that entire inside space of the W Hut's dead-end valley(s) before negotiating the northerly path out of there again. So that is 3:51 .. or 3:52pm at that point, if that is verified somehow ..

EDIT (for Notapilot) re "conclusion":
Your doing everything in your power to find the aircraft; incredible. Those efforts make clearer that poor visibility developed around higher mountain elevations they were forced to fly if to get through the pass; and that idea has become very difficult ... and esp without information further along.
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Last edited by pdw on Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Notapilot1
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Re: Missing airplane on flight from Penticton to Edmonton

Post by Notapilot1 »

So in conclusion PDW, you’re saying what exactly?
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crazy horse
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Re: Missing airplane on flight from Penticton to Edmonton

Post by crazy horse »

CpnCrunch wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:09 am
I think on the day in question it was more of a low pressure system blowing in moisture from the Pacific, which will tend to generate clouds as it blows up the valleys. More dangerous as you will tend to be under the clouds, which could suddenly close up in the valleys. (I'm not a weather forecaster, so please correct me if I've got this wrong).
This is an important point.

Remember, a GFA is a forecast product (made hours in advance) and the METAR is automated.
The flow, moisture content, and winds aloft matter.
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RatherBeFlying
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Re: Missing airplane on flight from Penticton to Edmonton

Post by RatherBeFlying »

There's four Alpine Club of Canada huts in Roger's Pass. Besides Wheeler, there's Sapphire Col, Asulkan and Hermit. The last three are high up and access is subject to avalanche hazard and heavy snowfall (a Roger's Pass specialty) - quite possibly nobody there on Nov 25. The ACC National office knows who, if anybody, was booked there. Parties do turn back when conditions don't allow access.

http://www.alpineclubofcanada.ca

The sharp turn North about ½ mile NW Wheeler hut ends up over a steep grade of the TCH and possibly presented a climb blocked by cloud. Turning South takes you toward the Illecillewaet and Asulkan Glaciers. Whiteout conditions over glaciers and snowfields are commonplace.

Balu Pass tops out about 6600' and cuts the corner off the zigzag. I've hiked it, but haven't flown it.

Avalanche hazard and snowpack persist well into the Spring. It could be July before the glaciers and snow fields are bare. Come May or June I'd put up posters at Wheeler hut, Canyon Hot Springs and the trailheads asking people to keep their eyes open.

Until road access to Wheeler is open, you need avalanche training and gear to go there.
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Jagfarms
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Re: Missing airplane on flight from Penticton to Edmonton

Post by Jagfarms »

If the cell phone pinged a tower it should have gave its location if location was not turned off. If it pinged at 10:30 pm the plane should have been down at that time.

You can access the location from google timeline from any computer if you know the log in info. If you don’t know the log in info would RCMP someone be able to get it from the cell phone provider?

Also lots of apps track cell phones and i think when a phone pings it Sends your location to the app.


I cut and paste info below about google timeline.

You can see how far you travelled and the way you travelled from place to place, like walking, biking, driving, or public transportation. Whether your timeline measures distances in miles or kilometers is based on your country.

On your computer, open Google Maps
Sign in with the same Google Account you use on your mobile device.
In the top left, click Menu Menu.
Click Your timeline Timeline.
To see another day or month, at the top, click DAY.
Choose the day you’d like to view.
Tip: To see places that you've visited recently, click Menu Menu and then Your places and then Visited.

Edit your timeline
If a place is wrong on your timeline, you can edit the location and when you were there.

On your computer, go to your timeline.
Find the place you want to change on your timeline and click the Down arrow Down Arrow.
Choose the correct place or search for a place in the search box.
To edit when you were there, click the time.
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Jagfarms
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Re: Missing airplane on flight from Penticton to Edmonton

Post by Jagfarms »

If the cell phone pinged a tower it should have gave its location if location was not turned off. If it pinged at 10:30 pm the plane should have been down at that time.

You can access the location from google timeline from any computer if you know the log in info. If you don’t know the log in info would RCMP someone be able to get it from the cell phone provider?

Also lots of apps track cell phones and i think when a phone pings it Sends your location to the app.


I cut and paste info below about google timeline.

You can see how far you travelled and the way you travelled from place to place, like walking, biking, driving, or public transportation. Whether your timeline measures distances in miles or kilometers is based on your country.

On your computer, open Google Maps
Sign in with the same Google Account you use on your mobile device.
In the top left, click Menu Menu.
Click Your timeline Timeline.
To see another day or month, at the top, click DAY.
Choose the day you’d like to view.
Tip: To see places that you've visited recently, click Menu Menu and then Your places and then Visited.

Edit your timeline
If a place is wrong on your timeline, you can edit the location and when you were there.

On your computer, go to your timeline.
Find the place you want to change on your timeline and click the Down arrow Down Arrow.
Choose the correct place or search for a place in the search box.
To edit when you were there, click the time.
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Notapilot1
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Re: Missing airplane on flight from Penticton to Edmonton

Post by Notapilot1 »

I called Asulkan and Wheeler, they couldn't release the witness information to me and had already given that info to Parks Canada. Same with the witness at Canyon Hot Springs. We were tying to get in touch with them to ask more specific questions but have so far, not been able to get their information. Tangier Road and area has been searched due to that being a logical place to put down a plane as the witness reported the plane flying very close to the tree tops. Nothing was found. Cougar Mountain is the next area to be searched as long as a helicopter can be brought back in. I believe they need a permit for this area though, so I think that's a bit of a delay.

We have tried certain things with phone tracking and gmail accounts and so far, none have worked. I will certainly pass on that information though, as anything is worth a shot. We are also waiting (3 days now) for relevant highway cam and mountain cam footage.

Drones have also been out for the last two days and we are currently waiting on footage.

I will also pass along the Illecillewaet theory as that was brought up a while back, and I do have it pinned on my map.

Thank you all.
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