Georgian Upgrades

[xlwing]

I should clarify. I was in fact referring to the Beech, not the RJ. And to state that GGN has a robust training and mentor program? Come on now. Some of their training captains are guys with less than 6 months in the seat, and there's no such mentor program in effect, anymore. They plop a 200h cadet with any line captain with no guidance. Training program? I hear they're pumping guys out faster than they know what airplane they're on. Crap training plus unguided training captains plus inexperience plus rushed operation = flying straight through all the holes in the swiss cheese. These upgraded cadets can't get ATPLs cause they're literally not old enough to acquire one! They're fresh highschool students flying command positions (graduated 2014). Add the one year of PPL and CPL training, and that's less than 2 years of experience total. I'm sorry but that is just wrong...

And are you speaking from experience or just hearsay? Cause if that's the case I could tell you about just about every operators training program. Get facts straight before posting please

I've worked there and can substantiate all of that. Don't know about their graduation dates though haha.

[infiniteregulus]

Some friends of mine told me this info. Maybe I just didn't want to believe it thus why I asked on here if it were true or not. But it's shaping out to be so.

Got linked their facebook profiles with their grad dates

[confusedalot]

Stating the obvious, of course an RJ left seat is out of reach without an atpl. And also stating the obvious, a king air is not out of reach for a commercial level pilot.

I'm an old guy, and king airs were a luxury in my time, navajos were the norm, king airs were a rare sight. Having said that, I had a whopping total of 1000 hours when I got my single pilot IFR navajo job. Had a whopping 300 hours for aztecs, beech barons, senecas, and so on. That was circa 1981 and on-wards.

When you think about it, not much difference between a navajo and a king air. Yeah I know, blah blah blah, turbine time, only astronauts can do it......the reality is that flying a turbine powered prop is no more difficult than a piston. It is just a bit different and easily adaptable to a piston driver.

So I am not surprised at all that a king air would be an entry level (or almost) aircraft.

Sign of the times though, things are booming. Take advantage of it.

[AuxBatOn]

I have time in Piston, Turboprops and Jets and engine management is generally much easier in Turboprops than pistons, and easier in jets than turboprops.

The relative difficulty with jets when conpared to props is energy management (altitude and airspeed) and staying ahead of the aircraft in busy phases of flight.

[Stan Darsh]

an established mentor program and a robust training department such as GGN's should be able to cope.

Wow, I had to read that like 3 times. I'm still laughing

Well, they've been doing it since 2000-whatever so I'd say it's established, no? My point still stands. Glad you could finally decipher it.

[gtanorth]

Some friends of mine told me this info. Maybe I just didn't want to believe it thus why I asked on here if it were true or not. But it's shaping out to be so.

Got linked their facebook profiles with their grad dates

I think you are discounting the quality and relevance of their experience not to mention the quality of training and candidate.

[Tanker299]

You need an ATPL to be a left seater on the 1900 in airline operations. It very clearly states in the AFM that the aircraft is 2 crew with more then 9 seats installed. It's only single pilot when certain conditions are met.

[AuxBatOn]

The AFM doesn't legally define the minimum crew requirement. The Aircraft Type Certificate Data Sheet does. It depends what it says for the 1900. If it doesn't state tha minimim crew is 2 then an ATPL isn't required.

[infiniteregulus]

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... 7-1396.htm

The type designation states minimum 1 pilot. One would have to define "airline" op as well as it would fall under 704 Commuter, not 705. Not sure on the legalities, but regardless, they're operating as such now, so there's obviously an approval by TC.

Some friends of mine told me this info. Maybe I just didn't want to believe it thus why I asked on here if it were true or not. But it's shaping out to be so.

Got linked their facebook profiles with their grad dates

I think you are discounting the quality and relevance of their experience not to mention the quality of training and candidate.

I've personally met a few of these "candidates" flying as a pax many times and in the airports. To be honest, they had the professionalism and maturity level of, well, literally a teenager. Non-issued uniform parts, goofing off, impersonal customer service, use of cell phones on the ramp and in the cockpit (you can see everything in the Beech), etc.. Obviously all my remarks are opinion and really the only outcome is the fact that I, along with friends and family, will now refuse to sit on any aircraft operated by Georgian. I've been in enough scenarios in my career to which I had to draw upon past flying experience, airmanship, and life experience to overcome, and I just don't feel comfortable with their operation anymore. Just my thoughts. That's all.

[gtanorth]

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... 7-1396.htm

The type designation states minimum 1 pilot. One would have to define "airline" op as well as it would fall under 704 Commuter, not 705. Not sure on the legalities, but regardless, they're operating as such now, so there's obviously an approval by TC.

Some friends of mine told me this info. Maybe I just didn't want to believe it thus why I asked on here if it were true or not. But it's shaping out to be so.

Got linked their facebook profiles with their grad dates

I think you are discounting the quality and relevance of their experience not to mention the quality of training and candidate.

I've personally met a few of these "candidates" flying as a pax many times and in the airports. To be honest, they had the professionalism and maturity level of, well, literally a teenager. Non-issued uniform parts, goofing off, impersonal customer service, use of cell phones on the ramp and in the cockpit (you can see everything in the Beech), etc.. Obviously all my remarks are opinion and really the only outcome is the fact that I, along with friends and family, will now refuse to sit on any aircraft operated by Georgian. I've been in enough scenarios in my career to which I had to draw upon past flying experience, airmanship, and life experience to overcome, and I just don't feel comfortable with their operation anymore. Just my thoughts. That's all.

Guess we won't see you on any Jazz ac either. Don't think about traveling in Europe ... I think if you were being honest you would say that you were a bit jealous - a quick review of your posts (all negative) seem to indicate that you are a bit frustrated with your career progression "I feel like my whole career is a stepping stone " Don't hold it against these young pilots that they have progressed really fast. In any case, they will be at AC within 6 - 10 months anyway so its a pretty moot point.

[infiniteregulus]

Oh I'm well aware about other airlines and you're right, I avoid those airlines as well if I can, however, there's a difference in that they operate 705, have resources to support a cadet program, and are much more regulated and monitored. And I'm quite content with my career. Thank you for the ridiculous speculation. I'm not even going to entertain 90% of your comments as you are a questionable entity who's sole purpose on Avcanada is the biased defence of Georgian. I'm frankly just tired of talking with you, both here and previous threads, cause it's like talking to a parrot or a brick wall.

[gtanorth]

Oh I'm well aware about other airlines and you're right, I avoid those airlines as well if I can, however, there's a difference in that they operate 705, have resources to support a cadet program, and are much more regulated and monitored. And I'm quite content with my career. Thank you for the ridiculous speculation. I'm not even going to entertain 90% of your comments as you are a questionable entity who's sole purpose on Avcanada is the biased defence of Georgian. I'm frankly just tired of talking with you, both here and previous threads, cause it's like talking to a parrot or a brick wall.

Do you really think there are operators in Canada more regulated or monitored than any of the AC EXpress companies? Resources --- ummmm AGL is a 705 operator... Odd comment. Re career I was just reposting what you wrote - sorry it hurt. And to be fair to AGL you should at least say that you are boycotting Jazz and AGL.. You should kick in Sunwing for their cadet program as well.

[xlwing]

Who in their right mind would be jealous of working for georgian????

I think if you were being honest you would say that you were a bit jealous

[aviator242]

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... 7-1396.htm

The type designation states minimum 1 pilot. One would have to define "airline" op as well as it would fall under 704 Commuter, not 705. Not sure on the legalities, but regardless, they're operating as such now, so there's obviously an approval by TC.

Some friends of mine told me this info. Maybe I just didn't want to believe it thus why I asked on here if it were true or not. But it's shaping out to be so.

Got linked their facebook profiles with their grad dates

I think you are discounting the quality and relevance of their experience not to mention the quality of training and candidate.

I've personally met a few of these "candidates" flying as a pax many times and in the airports. To be honest, they had the professionalism and maturity level of, well, literally a teenager. Non-issued uniform parts, goofing off, impersonal customer service, use of cell phones on the ramp and in the cockpit (you can see everything in the Beech), etc.. Obviously all my remarks are opinion and really the only outcome is the fact that I, along with friends and family, will now refuse to sit on any aircraft operated by Georgian. I've been in enough scenarios in my career to which I had to draw upon past flying experience, airmanship, and life experience to overcome, and I just don't feel comfortable with their operation anymore. Just my thoughts. That's all.

Do I take it that you will then refuse to fly on an air Canada aircraft then when hey might be over to mainline as per their contract? I will agree with you that there is nothing better then past experience in a number of scenarios to help you in your career but to say these cadets are inexperienced isn't correct. They have 1500 plus hours and can assure you they have seen a multitude of different issues as fos. With the "pilot shortage" coming I'm afraid that this way of gaining experience will be more common. There are plenty of others at ggn that were hired wih no experience and went on to make great captains... never heard you complain about them. Just these cadets.

[gtanorth]

Who in their right mind would be jealous of working for georgian????

I think if you were being honest you would say that you were a bit jealous

I suspect a lot of people would like to be in the shoes of the cadets. Air Canada at 21. AGL just announced another cadet program as well so it is a sign of the times... For what it is worth when I started I was Capt on a King Air flying charters all over with 1500 hrs with much less support and structure than the guys at AGL have. Not sure what journey the OP took but I take it he is a bit bitter about it.

[CL-Skadoo!]

Or perhaps this individual really cares about the direction of our industry and is frustrated about its current situation.

[avpride]

Or perhaps this individual really cares about the direction of our industry and is frustrated about its current situation.

No, it was just Georgian bashing as he likes to do. If he cared about the industry he would have listed the many operators doing the same thing and not just pointed to one or at least phrased it as an industry concern not huff and puff about one company boasting that he is concerned for his safety on this one airline. Georgian has had a mentor program since 2000 - why complain now? I suspect he is more upset that he did not have the opportunity these cadets do....I think that is his actual issue with the industry

[xlwing]

To be fair, the op did question the state of the industry as a whole in his/her first post with the news of georgian's policy change being the catalyst.

[FL-280]

Or perhaps this individual really cares about the direction of our industry and is frustrated about its current situation.

Georgian has had a mentor program since 2000 - why complain now? I suspect he is more upset that he did not have the opportunity these cadets do....I think that is his actual issue with the industry

Because they have taken away flying from a great operator by whoring themselves out at a ludicrous cost.

[infiniteregulus]

I've had a good long career, with a couple jobs better than others, but I don't regret anything, and frankly not everyone is in a mad race to work for an airline. I've worked in nearly all the facets of aviation, minus military, all over the world, and much appreciate the experiences I've received. Good on the younglings in having an accelerated career path. I don't deny that their opportunity is fortunate. If someone is dead-set on working for an airline, than that's a fortunate path. However, not everyone wants that path, and more importantly, there are MUCH better jobs out there. I considered Canadian airlines at one point, but chose not to pursue it, as I had better opportunities elsewhere in the private sector (flying "airliners" no less). But to each their own.

There's certain individuals on here that only come to defend GGN. The amount of voracity in their posts can only indicate that they have a particular agenda; HR, management (current or ex)... The methods of interdiction within their rhetoric could be psychologically analyzed as basic defence mechanisms:

Compensation: Counter balancing weaknesses with perceived strengths in other areas
Rationalization: Changing the reality of the situation to reflect in one's desired perceptions
Denial: Refusal to accept reality
etc...

In running this show, they are creating a mask in which they wish to deflect the spotlight on them and in turn bash those that try presenting a platform of change or discussion. Do not silence opposition by cutting their tongue, (or calling them jealous...come on, get off the high horse), but rather lets discuss improvements. As a human being, not just a pilot, I want what everybody wants, which is safety. As a business, companies want money. Can there not be a common ground without jeopardizing either or both? I'm not here to bash. I'm just one who's noticing nothing but a downward trend in the data; a degradation in industry-wide standards. Not to say there haven't been improvements in other areas. If GGN's policy is to silence those who question their operation, then I'm sorry, but they have something to hide. Sorry for calling a spade a spade. I fully realize me writing ANY comments here is meaningless in the grand scheme of things, so I don't know why I even bother. Robots will be flying our planes in the future and THAT will make this all moot