First year U.S. regional FO makes more than fourth year Air Canada FO

[confusedalot]

I'm retired you poor fool. And 19000 in time is no big feat for a 58 year old, it's only normal time. It's actually even less than normal since I had training and admin duties, and stuck behind a desk for 5 years. So no bragging here. Should be more like 24K as a normal line driver.

Since you are an elitist white anglo saxon protestant, here's even more for ya to bash.......you like bashing others to put yourself at a higher plane, right? Get this, I was turned down by the AC gods 3, yep, 3, times........ Once at 26 and 4000 hours, once at 40 and 14000 hours, and once through a skyregional
flowthrough thingie at 56.

That should make your day. I am a total &*?%up cuz I don't work for Air Canadaz. By extension, anybody who does not work for air canadaz are inferior, right? Are you at orgasm level yet?

As i said before, sure am adept at fooling others, except air canadaz of course, since I was gainfully employed despite numerous bankruptcies and mass layoffs, all the while passing countless interviews just to get back on my feet again and survive, with direct entry jobs to boot. Man those companies are fools Luckiest man in the world since I have zero incidents to my name.

So have at it, white anglo saxon protestant, more british than that horrible bloodline based british class system that everybody despises. You are superior by birth and are therefore entitled to pass judgement on persons you have zero clue about. Sad that we inferiors need to even interact with bluebloods in this business.

I wrote a simple off the cuff comment about a pedestrian issue of beancounting through the best knowledge from the horses mouth of what I was told, and what do you do? You use a forum to crush a person to the maximum, a sure sign of your true nature. Because I had some fantastic opportunity ahead of me at 56? What?

And, I don't have an amex card, too poor to have one. So don't worry about any high falutin lounges, can't afford them.

From a humble hard worker who gets abused by the superior beings of this canadian business. As for you, I'll be on the lookout for an arrogant 4 striper who walks on water and who's #$%? don't stink. Some things never change, it's always been like that.

Can you leave me alone now??

[short bus]

Dude, serenity now...

[confusedalot]

I know, you are right. Few get under my skin but this guy.....expert at pushing just about every single button with uncanny ease.....and likes it.

Life is life, just roll with it is what I really want to do at the end of the day.

Too late now, should have stayed expat flying the world.....

[aV1aTOr]

As far as your numbers, Airline Pilot Central might not be the best source. My year 4 income at AC was 6 figures as a mainline FO. That's T4 taxable income, not perdiums, pension etc. Rouge guys will do better than that.

I was told that flat pay of about 50K for 4 years at AC was the norm, and this from AC HR during a feeder airline interview..........

Please tell us how you doubled that rate in your 4th year. Is AC HR lying?

Seriously dude, I feel next to zero need to justify any income numbers to you. If HR told you that you'd be making 50k for 4 years, then yes you were misinformed. And you employed absolutely no critical thinking on your own part. 50k in year one, yes. But as has been explained here, the pay at AC is far more complicated than hourly wage quoted by some website or recruiting staff member, and it goes up quickly. If you want to disbelieve that fact to make yourself feel better, go ahead.

[confusedalot]

Hey, I am like anybody else, I like money as in, the more I get the more I like it. So, what's your problem? I innocently stated that big red told me 50K flat, plus a few incremental bits over the first 4 years. Call me stupid, but incremental does not translate to 72K (or whatever it is) 3 years later Tell me why I would lie about that. And yes, you poor fool, I am more aware of the ''complexities'' of formula pay.

One other thing, since I am a naive sort, I did not think about scanning every single avcanada thread before talking to them, I am, once again, the naive sort that takes people at their word, you know like the oldtimers who sign contracts on a handshake and trust?

I don't need to make myself feel better, unlike yourself.

Sheesh, this internet business sure is nasty.................

[SuperchargedRS]

For one there is no pilot shortage, we have more than enough pilots with the experience required, the SHORTAGE is in PAY, no one with that level of experience wants to work for crap, and unlike in Canada, they won't.

The regionals dont actually pay that much, all you can count on for pay is what's protected in your union CBA, the bonuses that the management use to get the pay to those artificial numbers can and will come and go at the whims on management.

Real world, for being responsible for the lives of 100 people and a $15,000,000.00USD jet, the pay should be a CLEAN (as in per the CBA) $100k USD STARTING, as in year 1 FO, until they start putting numbers out there like that they will have staffing issues.

As far as Canadians coming here to work, good luck with that lol

[Sharklasers]

For one there is no pilot shortage, we have more than enough pilots with the experience required, the SHORTAGE is in PAY, no one with that level of experience wants to work for crap, and unlike in Canada, they won't.

The regionals dont actually pay that much, all you can count on for pay is what's protected in your union CBA, the bonuses that the management use to get the pay to those artificial numbers can and will come and go at the whims on management.

Real world, for being responsible for the lives of 100 people and a $15,000,000.00USD jet, the pay should be a CLEAN (as in per the CBA) $100k USD STARTING, as in year 1 FO, until they start putting numbers out there like that they will have staffing issues.

As far as Canadians coming here to work, good luck with that lol

Finally something I can agree on with Supercharged, I fly with people all the time taking about how we will soon be able to go south and steal American mainline jobs. It won't and shouldn't happen and here's why.

The Americans require a degree if you don't come from their regional flow period, full stop. You can count on both hands the amount of mainline OTS hires in the States hired without degree in the last 15 years since 9/11. You can be the captain of the A380 and without that slip of paper your going to Envoy, it's been tried.

There is not now nor will ever be a shortage of American pilots trying to get to a mainline carrier, they will gradually lower the requirements in terms of total time and education as needed but they will never not fill a groundschool. The airline shortage will effect their regionals and I know I won't quit my mainline A320 job to go sling gear in an RJ in and out of LGA all day.

I get mad when I see people yammering on about how the Americans are dying to have us and we will all walk into mainline gigs because for the most part these are the same dinks that shit bricks at the prospect of the russkies coming in here as TFWs to do all our sun'n'fun flying. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, pick a side @$$holes.

[confusedalot]

Bit of a historical thing......

In the ancient times where I come from, I know that there was a commuter carrier in the US that was willing to hire canadian pilots wth the restraint of getting some sort of restricted work permit only to that airline. Sorry, I cannot remember the name of the place, but they were operating F27 and Twin Otter, in the northeasern US, circa 1980-1982. The place of course has been bought out by someone and no longer exists in it's former state.

Way before my time, I had heard of ex rcaf pilots being hired at United. Somewhere around the 60's.

So....it has happened, but....they are not that hard up south of the border yet.

Meybe it will happen in the future, maybe not; don't hold your breath though.

[atphat]

Don’t hold your breath is right. The Americans will never need us to fly at their mainline carriers. Never. If you are a Canadian pilot with relevant time and looking to make bank it’s off to Asia for you. Maybe even the sandbox but to a lesser degree.

[altiplano]

I agree that anyone counting that the US will just throw the doors open is dreaming. There may be some hiring at some point, there has been in the past, but it will be metered and targeted and minimal.

That's why we need to focus on wages here.

We can no longer accept substandard pay increases or concessionary bargaining in Canada while our peers to the south make record contract gains and take home double what we do for the same job.

Heck, not just to the south, most of the airlines in the world have significantly better contracts and higher pay than even our best airlines.

Enough is enough.

[1000islander]

"but they were operating F27 and Twin Otter, in the northeasern US, circa 1980-1982."

Would that have been Pilgrim Airlines??? They used to fly in to YOW,based in Groton, Conn

[garfield]

For one there is no pilot shortage, we have more than enough pilots with the experience required, the SHORTAGE is in PAY, no one with that level of experience wants to work for crap, and unlike in Canada, they won't.

The regionals dont actually pay that much, all you can count on for pay is what's protected in your union CBA, the bonuses that the management use to get the pay to those artificial numbers can and will come and go at the whims on management.

Real world, for being responsible for the lives of 100 people and a $15,000,000.00USD jet, the pay should be a CLEAN (as in per the CBA) $100k USD STARTING, as in year 1 FO, until they start putting numbers out there like that they will have staffing issues.

As far as Canadians coming here to work, good luck with that lol

Finally something I can agree on with Supercharged, I fly with people all the time taking about how we will soon be able to go south and steal American mainline jobs. It won't and shouldn't happen and here's why.

The Americans require a degree if you don't come from their regional flow period, full stop. You can count on both hands the amount of mainline OTS hires in the States hired without degree in the last 15 years since 9/11. You can be the captain of the A380 and without that slip of paper your going to Envoy, it's been tried.

There is not now nor will ever be a shortage of American pilots trying to get to a mainline carrier, they will gradually lower the requirements in terms of total time and education as needed but they will never not fill a groundschool. The airline shortage will effect their regionals and I know I won't quit my mainline A320 job to go sling gear in an RJ in and out of LGA all day.

I get mad when I see people yammering on about how the Americans are dying to have us and we will all walk into mainline gigs because for the most part these are the same dinks that shit bricks at the prospect of the russkies coming in here as TFWs to do all our sun'n'fun flying. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, pick a side @$$holes.

So if a canadian regional pilot with a degree do a FAA conversion what are the stakes of getting hired at a mainline U.S. carrier?

[SuperchargedRS]

Unless he already has a right to work in the US, like a dual citizen or something, I'd say about.......zero.

[confusedalot]

"but they were operating F27 and Twin Otter, in the northeasern US, circa 1980-1982."

Would that have been Pilgrim Airlines??? They used to fly in to YOW,based in Groton, Conn

Yes, that's the one, thanks for refreshing my memory.

[rudder]

I agree that anyone counting that the US will just throw the doors open is dreaming. There may be some hiring at some point, there has been in the past, but it will be metered and targeted and minimal.

That's why we need to focus on wages here.

We can no longer accept substandard pay increases or concessionary bargaining in Canada while our peers to the south make record contract gains and take home double what we do for the same job.

Heck, not just to the south, most of the airlines in the world have significantly better contracts and higher pay than even our best airlines.

Enough is enough.

Agreed. Yet two of the largest pilot groups in Canada are in decade long collective agreements with locked in pay rates/COLA.

I believe the start to jacking up the house is getting everybody in the house. Good progress is being made with the unionization at WJ/W) Encore, but ultimately we need all airline pilots under a union banner (preferably the same one). The pilot groups going in to bargaining have a chance to set benchmark pay rates.

Next, for the locked in pilots the number one bargaining issue must be wages. So any time the employer comes with an ask, the answer should be we want to talk about adjusting pay rates. If the employer says that issue is not negotiable, then the answer should be that then there is nothing to talk about. The AA pilots got the employer to come to them with an early offer of increased pay rates. No reason that cannot be duplicated here.

NB CA pay in the US is approaching US$300k. WB CA pay is approaching US$400k. Company pension contribution levels 16-16.5%. Without exchange rate adjustments there is nearly a 20% cost advantage in pilot costs Canada vs US. Including exchange rates it may be as high as 50%. There is lots of room for CDN employers to make adjustments and still be at a significant pilot cost advantage.

Our American counterparts have figured out how to leverage the pilot supply shortage. We need to do the same.

[mbav8r]

Rudder, would you agree the catalyst and continuation of the increased pay south of the border is because of the 1500 hour rule.
In Canada with no such rule Jazz has been able to put fresh grads in the right seat and now other regionals are implementing that to fill their needs, until such a time where this is not allowed we will continue to lag behind our neighbors.
For what it’s worth, there are companies putting very low time pilots in the left seat of King Air 200s and alike and caravan operators offering up 100g, so while lagging we are seeing the effects of the shortage at the 703/704 level, should work it’s way up to regionals soon.
To your point about the 10 year contract, agreed that there will be no give without a take, I believe that if Jazz can no longer fill their ground schools, they will be looking at the pay. Problem, until our competitors raise theirs, we risk losing work to them if we become too expensive again.
Question, is GGN able to fill their classes?

[rudder]

1500 hour rule or no rule - every regional carrier in Canada is competing for these same 500 hour pilots. So you can offer $36k with a video interview at AC or you can offer more than $36k with or without the interview. Ultimately, market forces will prevail. The first company to cancel flights for lack of crew will be the first to improve their offer to the prospective new-hires.

With current mobility and promotion opportunities, the regionals should be hiring pilots that are close to upgrade ready. Instead, many are hiring pilots that meet the bare regulatory minimum to occupy a seat in a part 705 aircraft. For these carriers, the current offer is generally not attracting the most qualified candidates.

Status quo cannot prevail. What will be interesting is to see what change looks like. Pilots can sit back and see what management comes up with, or they can act collectively and proactively for a model that benefits both their respective air carrier network and the profession.

[Dockjock]

No current Canadian airline pilot will go to the US, but if the option was there may future ones would. And that would open Canadian carriers to competition on labour, which would drive up wages. If you had 1500 hrs and could work at Jazz, Sky, Envoy, or Endeavor, where do you go? If your future max earnings are USD$400 vs CAD$280...it's not at all about what you make in year one or two.

[TG]

Real world, for being responsible for the lives of 100 people and a $15,000,000.00USD jet, the pay should be a CLEAN (as in per the CBA) $100k USD STARTING, as in year 1 FO, until they start putting numbers out there like that they will have staffing issues.

Except it's Captains who are ultimately responsable and on top of that they may have to "baby sit" super green F/O's if this trend continue.


Good luck with those figures.

[Rupert.Pupkin]

and that first year FO probably has way better reserve conditions compared to AC's reserve rules. Their rules are almost as bad as medivac schedules flying in northern Ontario...