New Pilots

Got a hot employment or interview tip to help a fellow aviator find a job or looking for a little job advice place your posting here.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

Skysurfer_1980
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:50 pm

Re: New Pilots

Post by Skysurfer_1980 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:10 pm

Sean,

Just work hard getting your CV out there, get known by the companies and start getting to know people. Never burn bridges.

I was very lucky in this industry. It's partly luck and hard work. It's also who you know!! That's what gave me my break, but I was a flight attendant for 4 years and because of that relationship I had with co-workers, years later paid off as I was thought of for a flying position.

I did the North, I side seated on the 727 and now back up North!! I never instructed, but just happened to be at the right place at the time I was supposed to be. Not as fast and easy as others. Took me YEARS. Working different roles at companies gets your name out there, you meet people and some of those people you meet might have a job for you.

Work hard, keep up with the ATPL studies, as you'll be tested on interviews. Make sure you have 200 Hours PIC (To get your ATPL) (I wish someone told me that or better yet research you have done everything to make yourself marketable in the industry), apply apply apply. You could have 1000 hours and not the right PIC time and said company might not hire you if they don't have a PIC US program. Make sure your IATRA is current!!

There are plenty of outfits out there that will hire low timers, but be prepared to work...HARD. I've done ramp, flight attending, gate agent, operations etc etc etc, I surely appreciate others roles having back ground knowledge.

Never give up the dream...it will happen, not if but when.

Good Luck Skysurfer
---------- ADS -----------
  

Sean Brown
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:33 pm

Re: New Pilots

Post by Sean Brown » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:12 pm

DanWEC wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:19 pm
Can’t for the life of me figure out why nobody would hire you, maybe you made the mistake of letting your personality come out...
my personality ? can you tell me how you know my personality when you throw my resume to garbage the second you find out I have 250 hours? what you see is not my personality, it is the reaction of dealing with rude chief pilots.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Sean Brown
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:33 pm

Re: New Pilots

Post by Sean Brown » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:20 pm

Skysurfer_1980 wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:10 pm
Sean,

Just work hard getting your CV out there, get known by the companies and start getting to know people. Never burn bridges.

I was very lucky in this industry. It's partly luck and hard work. It's also who you know!! That's what gave me my break, but I was a flight attendant for 4 years and because of that relationship I had with co-workers, years later paid off as I was thought of for a flying position.

I did the North, I side seated on the 727 and now back up North!! I never instructed, but just happened to be at the right place at the time I was supposed to be. Not as fast and easy as others. Took me YEARS. Working different roles at companies gets your name out there, you meet people and some of those people you meet might have a job for you.

Work hard, keep up with the ATPL studies, as you'll be tested on interviews. Make sure you have 200 Hours PIC (To get your ATPL) (I wish someone told me that or better yet research you have done everything to make yourself marketable in the industry), apply apply apply. You could have 1000 hours and not the right PIC time and said company might not hire you if they don't have a PIC US program. Make sure your IATRA is current!!

There are plenty of outfits out there that will hire low timers, but be prepared to work...HARD. I've done ramp, flight attending, gate agent, operations etc etc etc, I surely appreciate others roles having back ground knowledge.

Never give up the dream...it will happen, not if but when.

Good Luck Skysurfer
Thank you so much, it was the best answer so far! I will try and try and try. I will achieve the dream or die trying
---------- ADS -----------
  

Sean Brown
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:33 pm

Re: New Pilots

Post by Sean Brown » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:48 pm

fish4life wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:44 am
You seem very entitled and it’s probably a big reason you won’t get a job. I hope you realize that almost every first job flying requires you to do more than just flying. If I was looking to hire you I wouldn’t have any confidence that you would crawl under the plane on some muddy sloppy parking spot to unload bags from the pod or after spending a night on a reserve spend 3 hours shovelling snow away from the plane. Flying up north involves a lot more than flying, I can’t count the number of times I’ve had to come up with a plan and a solution to a problem that had nothing to do with actually flying the airplane. These are some of the reasons companies get guys to work the ramp, it might not make them a better pilot but if they see someone that just bitches and whines anytime something doesn’t go smoothly then they don’t want them to be problem solving up north.
The reality is I am ready for any kind of jobs, but what I see. you give me a flying job and expect me to anything. I will shovel, unload cleanup the washroom anything, but don't tell me to do all of this and then after a year, you might consider me. The reality is the companies want me to work my ass off for a year and same time they are hiring other guys with 700 hours to be the Fo, so we can say they need ground crews but no one is coming there to do that job. So why not take an advantage of a new pilot who desperately wants to fly. Again I would do anything to get that Job but no one even considering me.
---------- ADS -----------
  

digits_
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2532
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: New Pilots

Post by digits_ » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:48 pm

Sean Brown wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:12 pm
my personality ? can you tell me how you know my personality when you throw my resume to garbage the second you find out I have 250 hours? what you see is not my personality, it is the reaction of dealing with rude chief pilots.
Can you describe what you consider a rude chief pilot?
---------- ADS -----------
  
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship

Diadem
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 897
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: A sigma left of the top of the bell curve

Re: New Pilots

Post by Diadem » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:05 pm

Sean Brown wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:48 pm
The reality is I am ready for any kind of jobs, but what I see. you give me a flying job and expect me to anything. I will shovel, unload cleanup the washroom anything, but don't tell me to do all of this and then after a year, you might consider me. The reality is the companies want me to work my ass off for a year and same time they are hiring other guys with 700 hours to be the Fo, so we can say they need ground crews but no one is coming there to do that job. So why not take an advantage of a new pilot who desperately wants to fly. Again I would do anything to get that Job but no one even considering me.
Why would they hire you to fly when you have 250 hours and the other guy has 700? The reason they want you to shovel and throw bags is because they haven't seen that you have anything that sets you apart from any of the other fresh CPLs. That 700-hour pilot has three times the amount of experience as you do, and probably started out loading bags and cleaning shitters, so when the chief pilots look at his/her resume they know that he/she has the work ethic and skills to do the job as it needs to be done. When you show up and say "I'll only work as a pilot" they take that to mean that you aren't willing to do all the crap besides flying, because if you're not willing to do it as a rampie then they have no way of knowing whether you'll do it as a pilot. They want to see that you have that work ethic before they give you a plane in the winter with a full load of cargo, and saying that you'll do that stuff isn't enough. There's no reason they should be hiring someone with 250 hours in the first place if there are 700-hour pilots available, but they're willing to give you a chance if you'll prove that you can manage all the crap that goes along with the job; they're saying that they'll hire you, even though you're under-qualified compared to the other applicants, but they need to know they can trust you first. It sucks, and no doubt a lot of posters here will freak out about the idea of taking a ramp job, but the reality is that the pilots who are getting hired still have three times as much experience as you, so you're not in a position to be demanding anything. Either you need to prove to someone that you're capable of doing the job even though you're less qualified, or you need to become more qualified.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Sean Brown
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:33 pm

Re: New Pilots

Post by Sean Brown » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:41 pm

Diadem wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:05 pm
Sean Brown wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:48 pm
The reality is I am ready for any kind of jobs, but what I see. you give me a flying job and expect me to anything. I will shovel, unload cleanup the washroom anything, but don't tell me to do all of this and then after a year, you might consider me. The reality is the companies want me to work my ass off for a year and same time they are hiring other guys with 700 hours to be the Fo, so we can say they need ground crews but no one is coming there to do that job. So why not take an advantage of a new pilot who desperately wants to fly. Again I would do anything to get that Job but no one even considering me.
Why would they hire you to fly when you have 250 hours and the other guy has 700? The reason they want you to shovel and throw bags is because they haven't seen that you have anything that sets you apart from any of the other fresh CPLs. That 700-hour pilot has three times the amount of experience as you do, and probably started out loading bags and cleaning shitters, so when the chief pilots look at his/her resume they know that he/she has the work ethic and skills to do the job as it needs to be done. When you show up and say "I'll only work as a pilot" they take that to mean that you aren't willing to do all the crap besides flying, because if you're not willing to do it as a rampie then they have no way of knowing whether you'll do it as a pilot. They want to see that you have that work ethic before they give you a plane in the winter with a full load of cargo, and saying that you'll do that stuff isn't enough. There's no reason they should be hiring someone with 250 hours in the first place if there are 700-hour pilots available, but they're willing to give you a chance if you'll prove that you can manage all the crap that goes along with the job; they're saying that they'll hire you, even though you're under-qualified compared to the other applicants, but they need to know they can trust you first. It sucks, and no doubt a lot of posters here will freak out about the idea of taking a ramp job, but the reality is that the pilots who are getting hired still have three times as much experience as you, so you're not in a position to be demanding anything. Either you need to prove to someone that you're capable of doing the job even though you're less qualified, or you need to become more qualified.
My roommate and I graduated from the same college, for him and some passing theories was extremely hard. I had to teach them 20 hours a week( don't get me wrong he is my best friend, I have his permission to say this). At the end of the college, he had enough money to do his instructor rating, and I started to look for any Pilot In Waiting job. I didn't find anything by now and he just start working, I am so happy for him, but let's say you hire me tomorrow for your ramp, 6 months from now you will have Fo job opening and you have 2 choices me and him, who is getting the job? Him why? he has more hours, and also you don't like to give up the rampy to the flight line and hire another one. That 10000 $ he can spend to get his instructor rating is the most important thing. BTW I didn't say "I'll only work as a pilot" . I am saying hire me put me on the ram for 3 months, let me try. What kind experienced person you are if you are not able to find out my work ethics in 3 or 6 months? I will still do all you want, shoveling, cleaning, everything. What if I work for you for a year and you don't want me anymore? what If you yourself get laid off? what if what happened to West Wind happen to your company( the company had been sold and transwest kicked out 3 of ours, who worked 9 months on the ramp). You see it is not just me being risky, you are a big gamble. It should be as the way if a year from now for any reason you don't want the new pilot he/ she have a few hundred hours, so he/she will be able to get another job. A flying job!!
---------- ADS -----------
  

Diadem
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 897
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: A sigma left of the top of the bell curve

Re: New Pilots

Post by Diadem » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:28 am

Sean Brown wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:41 pm
BTW I didn't say "I'll only work as a pilot" .
No? Because that's what I get from this: "all a person like me looking for is a Job a flying Job...all I am looking for is a job related to what I trained for, what I have its certificate and college diploma ?" And this: "we pay a lot of money and hardworking to get our license with Candian high standard, and then have to work in MacDonald and flip burgers or work on the ramp for a year or more to have a chance to fly a single engine and log SIC. can you please clarify for me how towing planes and not flying for so long makes us a considerable candidate?" And this: "I totally agree with you, the plane should be grounded rather than having the wrong person on controls, but could you please tell me how, working on the ramp making me a better pilot?" Even if you're willing to work the ramp for a short period, that sure doesn't come off from what you've said, and it's likely that people who are hiring are taking that away as well. Besides, setting a cap on how long you're willing to work the ramp is almost as bad as declaring that you're only willing to perform specific duties: it says you have expectations about the way the job is going to go, and if your demands aren't met then you aren't going to grace them with your remarkable skills. Why would they hire you with a guarantee of a flying spot after a set period of time if they don't know if that job will be open when it comes? They would end up with more pilots than they need, and have to pay more wages than they should, all because you demanded to only work the ramp for a set length of time.
Here's how I've always viewed working the ramp, and how I would treat it if I were a CP: if you come in and introduce yourself, we talk, maybe even have a formal interview, and I decide that I would like to hire you, but I don't have any openings right now, I'll give you three options. One, you leave and look for work elsewhere. Two, you get a job flipping burgers in town, and when a pilot quits I'll call you if I don't have a better candidate. Three, you come work for the company in another capacity, because we have job openings and you need a job anyway. Option two means you're still an unknown entity coming in off the street, and an applicant with twice your experience would obviously be preferable. Option three lets me see your work ethic, and you get to know the operation, learn the SOPs, and maybe take some ground schools; I would be more willing to put you into a cockpit if I saw that you worked hard and put in the effort to learn the material needed to get a PPC, even if you came in with less experience. Unfortunately, I can't make a guarantee as to how long it will be before you'll be flying, because I have no idea when one of the pilots might quit, and I won't promise you that if you stay for three or six months I'll get you flying; hell, I might decide that you're a lazy, entitled sack of crap after all that. I, personally, wouldn't hire outside applicants over current employees, but I can't speak for others; perhaps there are contract requirements that mean the rampies won't be able to fly some trips, whereas a more experienced pilot would be able to, or perhaps they're intended as quick upgrades.
As for layoffs and companies shutting down, that's the reality of working in any industry. You provide labour, and in exchange your employer pays your wages. They don't owe you anything, and you don't owe them anything. That's why the relationship can be terminated by either party with two weeks' notice. When you're hired as a rampie, you work as a rampie, and if you're so lucky as to get flying that's when you become a pilot, not a moment before, so don't ever expect that the company owes you hours because you have a pilot's licence; you're hired as a rampie who happens to be a pilot, just like if you were hired to flip burgers you couldn't start demanding to be made the restaurant's accountant simply because you took some business courses, and your role in the company will only change if management agrees to it. If they hire a non-pilot to be a rampie, then when that person gets laid off they have nothing to show for it other than the money they made. You aren't entitled to career progression because you went to flight school. Get over yourself. Seriously, have you ever worked a real job, or is the offer to pay for your training an indication that you're an entitled rich kid? This schtick is getting old.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Sean Brown
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:33 pm

Re: New Pilots

Post by Sean Brown » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:11 am

Diadem wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:28 am
Sean Brown wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:41 pm
BTW I didn't say "I'll only work as a pilot" .
No? Because that's what I get from this: "all a person like me looking for is a Job a flying Job...all I am looking for is a job related to what I trained for, what I have its certificate and college diploma ?" And this: "we pay a lot of money and hardworking to get our license with Candian high standard, and then have to work in MacDonald and flip burgers or work on the ramp for a year or more to have a chance to fly a single engine and log SIC. can you please clarify for me how towing planes and not flying for so long makes us a considerable candidate?" And this: "I totally agree with you, the plane should be grounded rather than having the wrong person on controls, but could you please tell me how, working on the ramp making me a better pilot?" Even if you're willing to work the ramp for a short period, that sure doesn't come off from what you've said, and it's likely that people who are hiring are taking that away as well. Besides, setting a cap on how long you're willing to work the ramp is almost as bad as declaring that you're only willing to perform specific duties: it says you have expectations about the way the job is going to go, and if your demands aren't met then you aren't going to grace them with your remarkable skills. Why would they hire you with a guarantee of a flying spot after a set period of time if they don't know if that job will be open when it comes? They would end up with more pilots than they need, and have to pay more wages than they should, all because you demanded to only work the ramp for a set length of time.
Here's how I've always viewed working the ramp, and how I would treat it if I were a CP: if you come in and introduce yourself, we talk, maybe even have a formal interview, and I decide that I would like to hire you, but I don't have any openings right now, I'll give you three options. One, you leave and look for work elsewhere. Two, you get a job flipping burgers in town, and when a pilot quits I'll call you if I don't have a better candidate. Three, you come work for the company in another capacity, because we have job openings and you need a job anyway. Option two means you're still an unknown entity coming in off the street, and an applicant with twice your experience would obviously be preferable. Option three lets me see your work ethic, and you get to know the operation, learn the SOPs, and maybe take some ground schools; I would be more willing to put you into a cockpit if I saw that you worked hard and put in the effort to learn the material needed to get a PPC, even if you came in with less experience. Unfortunately, I can't make a guarantee as to how long it will be before you'll be flying, because I have no idea when one of the pilots might quit, and I won't promise you that if you stay for three or six months I'll get you flying; hell, I might decide that you're a lazy, entitled sack of crap after all that. I, personally, wouldn't hire outside applicants over current employees, but I can't speak for others; perhaps there are contract requirements that mean the rampies won't be able to fly some trips, whereas a more experienced pilot would be able to, or perhaps they're intended as quick upgrades.
As for layoffs and companies shutting down, that's the reality of working in any industry. You provide labour, and in exchange your employer pays your wages. They don't owe you anything, and you don't owe them anything. That's why the relationship can be terminated by either party with two weeks' notice. When you're hired as a rampie, you work as a rampie, and if you're so lucky as to get flying that's when you become a pilot, not a moment before, so don't ever expect that the company owes you hours because you have a pilot's licence; you're hired as a rampie who happens to be a pilot, just like if you were hired to flip burgers you couldn't start demanding to be made the restaurant's accountant simply because you took some business courses, and your role in the company will only change if management agrees to it. If they hire a non-pilot to be a rampie, then when that person gets laid off they have nothing to show for it other than the money they made. You aren't entitled to career progression because you went to flight school. Get over yourself. Seriously, have you ever worked a real job, or is the offer to pay for your training an indication that you're an entitled rich kid? This schtick is getting old.
I really like this post and its comment because it is actually teaching me things that I never could learn in flight school, but 3 things.
1. I am not a rich kid, if I was, I could afford instructor rating, the whole 2 years of college I gave people free lessons on, ground schools, prepare them for flight test ground portion, peer tutored in math, computer, physics, ethics, dispatch, and mechanics, to help people and make myself a good future instructor. but this is what it is in aviation how wealthy you are is important.
2. I don't want to say you would not be able to hire just rampie, but why a person( non-pilot) should go to the middle of nowhere base to do the ramp job. for minimum payment? but it is hard to believe. That's when the whole trapping system is beginning. You see this not a simple providing job and getting paid. I did not disrespect ramp job. all I am saying is there is a lot of company out there that hire pilots as rampie even when they know they don't want them.
3. What you say you do with the applicants is fair, what company is this? :D
---------- ADS -----------
  

TG
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1672
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:32 am
Location: Around

Re: New Pilots

Post by TG » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:28 am

Loner wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:03 am
TG wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:13 am
So they compensate this lack of flying experience by a strong level of theory to get an ATPL.

It’s the other way around in North America. Lots of ways to build up your flying experience but a very weak ATP theory. Hence this requirement of... flying experience to be able to fly an airliner.
(Not talking about guys or gals out of military in both cases)
I hold JAAR FCL, FAA and TC licenses, books do not “compensate” for lack of experience. My 2 cents...
Sean’s complaint/incomprehension was that “back home” you might be at the helm of an ATR, A320 or else with little or no experience while in Canada you have to build experience.
Of course but JAAR’s exams level act as a weed out for newbies.
TC or FAA’s ones are a joke.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
HansDietrich
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 453
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:33 am

Re: New Pilots

Post by HansDietrich » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:40 am

Oh man. Another out of touch kid. All right. Let old uncle Hans tell you a few things.

I also come from the "old country", where indeed most pilots end up in the right seat of an A320 as a first job. Do I think that's safe? No. Not until those guys get a few years behind the controls.

I'm not sure what school you went to and where your "international student" buddies came from. I can tell you one thing for sure. None of them were from Europe. I'm willing to bet they were either from China or India. If you want to go fly for Lucky Air or SpiceJet, be my guest. I would rather quit flying that do that. Not exactly the safest places to work. The European kids that get on, say hmmm I don't know, Swiss International Airlines, go thorough some very thorough training, in the US and Switzerland. They are top of the line boys and girls with exceptional intelligence, work ethics and results. Even with that, I still think it's bonkers to put someone with 200 hrs behind the seat of a jet with 150 people in the back.

So as an European that actually flies in Canada and did it the "old fashion" way, in the North, I like seeing Dash F/Os with 1500 hrs and Captains with 25,000 hrs.Sadly that too is going away.

Now back to you... Work hard, make friends, and drop that "entitled" attitude! Once you get to be my age, you can start being crusty...
---------- ADS -----------
  
Das ist mir wurst...

Loner
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:14 pm

Re: New Pilots

Post by Loner » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:43 am

HansDietrich wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:40 am
Oh man. Another out of touch kid. All right. Let old uncle Hans tell you a few things.

I also come from the "old country", where indeed most pilots end up in the right seat of an A320 as a first job. Do I think that's safe? No. Not until those guys get a few years behind the controls.

I'm not sure what school you went to and where your "international student" buddies came from. I can tell you one thing for sure. None of them were from Europe. I'm willing to bet they were either from China or India. If you want to go fly for Lucky Air or SpiceJet, be my guest. I would rather quit flying that do that. Not exactly the safest places to work. The European kids that get on, say hmmm I don't know, Swiss International Airlines, go thorough some very thorough training, in the US and Switzerland. They are top of the line boys and girls with exceptional intelligence, work ethics and results. Even with that, I still think it's bonkers to put someone with 200 hrs behind the seat of a jet with 150 people in the back.

So as an European that actually flies in Canada and did it the "old fashion" way, in the North, I like seeing Dash F/Os with 1500 hrs and Captains with 25,000 hrs.Sadly that too is going away.

Now back to you... Work hard, make friends, and drop that "entitled" attitude! Once you get to be my age, you can start being crusty...
Hear Hear!
I too am from the “old country” probably younger than uncle Hans...Sean, listen to his wise words, don’t take everything too personal and don’t spend your time on the defense. You have to accept the idea to read opinions that are opposite to what you’d like. Don’t use the Émile Coué’s Method of “Conscious Autosuggestion”
Don’t worry, trim your attitude, be positive and blue skies
---------- ADS -----------
  

altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3792
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: New Pilots

Post by altiplano » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:57 am

You need to differentiate yourself at this point.

You have nothing special, nothing is owed to you. You might be a nice guy and smart and willing to learn and would do a great job... but how does anyone know?

This is how it generally goes:
Chief Pilot opens his drawer of resumes when he needs someone and he looks for flight experience, and work history...
After he gets to the bottom of that pile, he calls his buddy here and another there to see if they know any experienced guys looking for work...
Then he maybe gives the rampie or swamper a shot...
When that's exhausted, and he realizes there is really nobody experienced available, he decides he has to give a 200-300 hour newbie a try in the right seat of the King Air or maybe on the 206, he looks for something that really makes them stand out... because he's F-n worried - it's his ass on the line if he hires a tool who dings the plane...
Maybe it's education or work history or a reference...
or maybe that's the guy who drove up to Fort Nowhere and introduced himself and got a quick hangar tour last week and was really enthusiastic about joining and able to start right away...

You are just one of many in a pile... I've been there and I was there for f-n years trying to catch a break... roadtrip, phonecalls, CP visits, every day you have to go get it, because it's not just going to roll in your front door because you have a CPL and emailed a resume.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Roar
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 225
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:14 pm

Re: New Pilots

Post by Roar » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:58 pm

Sean,
You face the challenge we all have had to deal with. The old catch 22 of how to get a job when you need experience but how to get experience without a job. This is nothing new it's been this way for a hundred years.
The fact that you have a CPL although an admirable personal achievement accounts for exactly nothing in the industry, at 250hrs you know zero about flying In the real world, that's not a personal attack on you it's just reality, everyone of us responding to you on this thread have been in your shoes with 250hrs looking for our break and wondering why no one will give us a chance.
Whether you see it or not, you are most assuredly coming across on this thread as an entitled whiner and for your own sake I'd urge you to step back do some introspection and gain some perspective on your situation. The industry is small and CP's do read these forms and with your attitude demonstrated here I can tell you if your resume came across my desk and I saw the name Sean Brown, right now it would go in the garbage bin.
At this particular time it's about the least difficult to break into the industry as it's ever been, that's not to say it's easy just not as hard as it has been, heck when I started out the minimum hour requirement for a Navajo captain was 5000hrs.
Be humble, Be determined, be enthusiastic, be patient and IT WILL happen.
Cheers.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: New Pilots

Post by Cat Driver » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:10 pm

why these Hr guys and chief pilots looking for 1500 for their King Air or 1000 for their Cessna caravan?


Because that is their company policy for minimum hours.
is there anyone out there who is willing to go middle of nowhere to fly a King Air if they have 1500H?
Yes, there are many who would love to get that opportunity, I know I would if I were in that position.
I have 250TT and group one
Which gives you the opportunity to get a job with a company that is willing to train you to become a commercial pilot.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

User avatar
Stan Darsh
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:44 pm
Location: America's Hat

Re: New Pilots

Post by Stan Darsh » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:25 pm

As others have said, there is a shortage of pilots - a shortage of qualified pilots. At 250hrs you simply are not a commodity. If you want advice, here's mine: stop worrying about how your peers are doing. It's not a race. Opportunities arrive and disappear, the industry is unpredictable. Not a working pilot today in Canada has had the same career path. Use your friends and contacts to get a job, but don't compare theirs to yours. When you have even a small amount of operational experience the job market doesn't seem so barren.
---------- ADS -----------
  

fish4life
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1731
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: New Pilots

Post by fish4life » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:23 pm

You seem to mention how well you did on “theory” as well, most of flying doesn’t require someone to know every single page of every manual by heart. I’d rather take a kid that might not have the greatest theory knowledge but grew up fooling around with machinery and fixing stuff he broke than some brilliantly book smart guy that can’t figure out how to operate a clutch on a dirt bike because at the end of the day flying a plane is just operating machinery and some people are naturally much better machinery operators than others.

Another thing that separates you from your peer isn’t $10000, it is an instructor rating which he has and you don’t. Did you ever think about doing time building on a tail dragger or getting a float rating? That would have helped and if you did any research prior to getting your license it would have been obvious.
---------- ADS -----------
  

mixturerich
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:04 pm

Re: New Pilots

Post by mixturerich » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:24 pm

what you see is not my personality, it is the reaction of dealing with rude chief pilots.
Oh man. How you ever heard the expression, “if everyone else is an asshole, you’re probably an asshole?”

As other guys have said, there is a shortage of experienced pilots, not fresh CPL’s. Flying in remote locations (where most 703 flying is) quite often demands a lot more skill and problem-solving abilities than the flying itself - this is the knowledge you learn as a rampie. You have a lot to learn, my friend, so stop wasting time and go find yourself a ramp job if you want to achieve your dreams, it worked for everyone else.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Diadem
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 897
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: A sigma left of the top of the bell curve

Re: New Pilots

Post by Diadem » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:50 pm

mixturerich wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:24 pm
Oh man. How you ever heard the expression, “if everyone else is an asshole, you’re probably an asshole?”
I like "If it smells like shit everywhere you go, check your shoes".
---------- ADS -----------
  

shimmydampner
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1571
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:59 pm

Re: New Pilots

Post by shimmydampner » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:22 am

Indeed.
There has never, in recent memory, been more opportunities for pilots of all experience levels. If you can’t find a job, one way or another, the problem is YOU.
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: New Pilots

Post by C.W.E. » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:21 pm

Everyone here missed his biggest opportunity for getting hired.

He should have went to top management and informed them they had a rude chief pilot and sold himself as the obvious candidate for the position of Chief Pilot.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Loner
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:14 pm

Re: New Pilots

Post by Loner » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:54 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:21 pm
Everyone here missed his biggest opportunity for getting hired.

He should have went to top management and informed them they had a rude chief pilot and sold himself as the obvious candidate for the position of Chief Pilot.
:lol:
---------- ADS -----------
  

2ndGenAviator
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:03 am

Re: New Pilots

Post by 2ndGenAviator » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:47 pm

Lol welcome to the aviation industry. Bet you wish you had figured this part out before flight college eh? ;P
---------- ADS -----------
  

AirDoan
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:33 pm

Re: New Pilots

Post by AirDoan » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:44 am

shimmydampner wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:22 am
Indeed.
There has never, in recent memory, been more opportunities for pilots of all experience levels. If you can’t find a job, one way or another, the problem is YOU.
It's funny. I've had my CPL and Float rating for over a year. I have not found a job yet despite trying to network and doing what I from here in Victoria. I can't afford to group 1 nor instructor ratings with my current job. But this doesn't mean I blame the industry. I think not being able to get a student load for ratings is ridiculous, but I don't blame my potential employers for not hiring me when someone with their group 1 is also applying. Ultimately they are more qualified. I know I need to be in the right place and meet the right people at the right time.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Tiberius
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:39 am

Re: New Pilots

Post by Tiberius » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:15 am

I'm not a pilot, but this same conundrum is what contributed to my quitting training altogether and studying something else. I believe I can provide some outside perspective:

The original poster does have a point to some degree. He's invested in his training, he is, for better or worse, qualified to fly, at least on paper. Most companies that I've worked for (engineering and development consulting) have a 3 to 6 month probationary period, after which, either party can decide if the arrangement is right for them. During this period, I'm assessing my employer as much as they are assessing me. But at the end of this period, a decision is made. Either the relationship is continued or it is terminated. Assuming that both parties are honest, feedback should be open and transparent. The key is that the probationary period is finite and definitive. If it is not working, neither party is being strung along for too long.

The original poster is essentially saying that if he ramps, he feels that he should have some assurances that he'll get an honest shot at flying. I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation, but there are expectations and then there's reality.

Welcome to the world of aviation indeed.

But on the other side, I also understand the need for operators to assess the work ethic of new hires, particularly with those fresh out of school. Not just from a safety perspective, but from a business one itself, you want people who will treat the business like it's their own and not just as some pit-stop in their career. But if someone is not going to work out, then they should be let go and not kept on ramp indefinitely, especially if they're not cut out to progress in your company. As it has been pointed out, there are plenty of fresh pilot grads who will jump at the opportunity.

In the field that I'm in, I've had my share of dead-end jobs and and jobs that weren't as advertised. These were mostly corporate gigs that functioned mostly on B.S. and office politics. But I've had great success with small businesses where I was assessed on the quality of my work and my "work ethic". I didn't make as much, but I learned a lot more and I was progressively given more responsibilities as time went on. In the interviews, I dealt with the business owners (as opposed to corporate recruiters) and I got a feel for what sort of characters they were, which factored heavily into my decision to stay on. You want to work for someone who will deal with you openly and honestly (even if they are a hard-ass), and this is where you have to trust your gut. Taking the first offer you get may not be the best answer and you should be given time to make a decision if the offer is serious. I've turned down better offers to stay where I presently am. Interviews where I'm pressured to make a decision then and there, well I turn those offers down because I know they're just trying to fill a seat.

I can't really give advice here, but if it were me, I would try a similar approach. Try and interview with the owner, get a sense of who they are in terms of character, and I would make it known at the interview as to what my industry / career goals are and see how they react and if they show a personal interest in that sense. But I would strongly advise against the either / or approach, particularly when you don't have the cards to play. I would hope that there would be some sort of definitive / probationary period in an offer with feedback or evaluations, but if not, then I myself may have to decide on my own terms what that period may be. If after 3 or 6 months there isn't any progression (in terms of assigned responsibilities), then it may be time to reassess the situation.

But again, I'm an outsider, so I can't really give advice here. But I've met guys I trained with years back who were still ramping 10 years on, still waiting for "their shot"...
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Employment Forum”