Westwind
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore
- Cat Driver
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Re: Westwind
So far there does not seem to be any idea of why it ended up there.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Westwind
Simmer down, and stop putting words into my mouth. Nowhere did I say that you're a liar - we're simply having a difference of opinion about the accuracy of TSB investigations. I think that your contention that the "chances are we will be no closer to knowing the true cause than the day it happened" is BS. As I'm understanding your words, you are saying that based on your experience with one case - 40 years ago- (and a few others, perhaps?) out of literally thousands of accident investigations, the chances are - so in a significant number of cases - the TSB will get it wrong. I simply don't think that's the case..Cat Driver wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:21 pm
Now to this comment by you:
You are basically calling me a liar and I am not prepared to accept such a comment from anyone.That's pure bullshit, Cat, and you know it.
Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
- rookiepilot
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Re: Westwind
Investigators....or Lobbyists in everything but title?170 to xray wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:55 am Many years ago I had lunch with a retired accident investigator. I asked how he liked working for the the NTSB. His respones was, "I didn't work for the NTSB, I worked for IACO."
He explained to me that when an accident happens 'teams' of investigators are sent to investigate the accident. Engine manufacturers, tire manufacturers, air plane manufacturers, avionics manufacturer..you get the point...they all send investigators to the accident. He said that they were all there to investigate their components, as experts to help the NTSB.
He also said that they were there to show that it wasn't their component that contributed to the accident, unofficially of course.
He was there to represent the pilots. He felt that the experts from industry were too eager to blame the two dead pilots and call it pilot error.
Is any of it true? I have know idea, but that's how it was told to me.
Awwww....I should behave and believe everyone has the best of altruist intentions.....always safety above (Cough) the mighty dollar.........
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Re: Westwind
Did they fuel up before leaving? Have to imagine that losing both engines after takeoff could have been from a fuel contamination issue.
Re: Westwind
What is the difference between a hard landing and a crash?Maybe it'll be classified as a hard landing and not a crash.
- rookiepilot
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Re: Westwind
Ice in the fuel?PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:01 pm Did they fuel up before leaving? Have to imagine that losing both engines after takeoff could have been from a fuel contamination issue.
Re: Westwind
Northshore, I took the NTSB reports as gospel up until I read the Air Canada "hard landing" report.
I can not believe how "white washed" that report is, when compared to a private independent report that was published.
That topic is available to read on this site, I just can't recall exactly where, but boy, what an eye opener!
I can not believe how "white washed" that report is, when compared to a private independent report that was published.
That topic is available to read on this site, I just can't recall exactly where, but boy, what an eye opener!
Last edited by EPR on Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Keep the dirty side down.
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Re: Westwind
Here is a link to the AC624 A320 "hard landing" accident critique of the TSB report that blew me away!
http://www.picma.info/sites/default/fil ... %201_4.pdf
http://www.picma.info/sites/default/fil ... %201_4.pdf
Keep the dirty side down.
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Re: Westwind
I guess If you crash onto a runway it's a hard landing.
And if you do a hard landing anywhere else it's a crash.
And if you do a hard landing anywhere else it's a crash.
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Re: Westwind
I agree that that this report put a nasty dent in the TSB's credibility.........EPR wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:27 pm Here is a link to the AC624 A320 "hard landing" accident critique of the TSB report that blew me away!
http://www.picma.info/sites/default/fil ... %201_4.pdf
Re: Westwind
I had a look at that critique, and a lot of the comments don't seem to make much sense (like the cold correction, which is above the altimeter setting source, not above sea level). Anyway, it's thread drift, so I'd suggest starting a new thread to discuss it.Gilles Hudicourt wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:01 amI agree that that this report put a nasty dent in the TSB's credibility.........EPR wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:27 pm Here is a link to the AC624 A320 "hard landing" accident critique of the TSB report that blew me away!
http://www.picma.info/sites/default/fil ... %201_4.pdf
Re: Westwind
Not so likely if all fuel around there was WAY below zero all week; unless moisture along from previous/warmer departure (where nearby Airpts South or West are 5C at-the-time) already in the tanks. That's (the only way IMO) possible for making freezing H20 at Fond-du-lac (-9C in wx-hist).. or if topping with some minus 10-15C fuel (holds chill from previous nights -20/-30).rookiepilot wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:02 pmIce in the fuel?PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:01 pm Did they fuel up before leaving? Have to imagine that losing both engines after takeoff could have been from a fuel contamination issue.
Seeing impact angle must have been fairly shallow (800ft debris field/TSB) it still could be that when weedwacking along, starting with smaller branches of the tallest treetops, that would eventually stop props anyway ... wouldn't it ? At which point in this accident sequence would the pilot have shut off the fuel (as per forced approach lesson / flying 101) when pending touchdown among trees became clear ?
- schnitzel2k3
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Re: Westwind
Only fuel that far north is Stony. So they would've had one full 20 minute cycle.rookiepilot wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:02 pmIce in the fuel?PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:01 pm Did they fuel up before leaving? Have to imagine that losing both engines after takeoff could have been from a fuel contamination issue.
S.
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Re: Westwind
Uh, no... What about points North or ZFD? Havent been to either in awhile mind you...schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:07 pmOnly fuel that far north is Stony. So they would've had one full 20 minute cycle.rookiepilot wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:02 pmIce in the fuel?PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:01 pm Did they fuel up before leaving? Have to imagine that losing both engines after takeoff could have been from a fuel contamination issue.
S.
Re: Westwind
PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:42 pmUh, no... What about points North or ZFD? Havent been to either in awhile mind you...schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:07 pmOnly fuel that far north is Stony. So they would've had one full 20 minute cycle.
S.
Fuel in points, stony and the mines but not fon du lac (zfd)
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Re: Westwind
All the Cameco mines had the same fuel provider from what I remember, I think even Points shared with Collins Gay. Oops I meant bay..
Is it unreasonable to think that they took on fuel and when the poured the coals to 'er she shit the bed just after rotation? Everyone is focused on icing but what about the gas, man?
Is it unreasonable to think that they took on fuel and when the poured the coals to 'er she shit the bed just after rotation? Everyone is focused on icing but what about the gas, man?
- schnitzel2k3
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Re: Westwind
Apologies, Points has fuel, but it's not as far north as Stony. La Ronge - besides the mines - is the next furtherst north, then comes Buffalo Narrows.PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:42 pmUh, no... What about points North or ZFD? Havent been to either in awhile mind you...schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:07 pmOnly fuel that far north is Stony. So they would've had one full 20 minute cycle.
S.
ZFD = Fond Du Lac - no fuel last I was there - unless you meant a different airport.
I would be surprised if it was a fuel icing / contamination issue. All I hope is that it was not a crew or mx related malfunction.
Tough for it not to be because those ATRs are pretty bullet proof.
Cheers.
S.
Re: Westwind
Only fuel that far north is Stony. So they would've had one full 20 minute cycle.
According to their schedule, the previous stop for WEW280 was LaRonge. Stony Rapids was their next stop.
According to their schedule, the previous stop for WEW280 was LaRonge. Stony Rapids was their next stop.
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Re: Westwind
Both engines were turning at the time of the crash:
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/sask ... -1.4458032
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/sask ... -1.4458032