Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

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altiplano
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

Post by altiplano »

I'm not making excuses.

They screwed up. Multiple people have screwed up at these points and they keep doing it.

But apparently they are all experienced, reasonable professionals not looking to cause an incursion... they are all aware to hold short, but miss the line, at the same place over and over. Why?
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pelmet
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

Post by pelmet »

altiplano wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:45 am I'm not making excuses.

They screwed up. Multiple people have screwed up at these points and they keep doing it.

But apparently they are all experienced, reasonable professionals not looking to cause an incursion... they are all aware to hold short, but miss the line, at the same place over and over. Why?
I think that these things happen at places other than YYZ. If you look at 24R landing in LAX to hold short of 24L, it is the same situation. Same with 28R in SFO to hold short 28L..

Perhaps there is a rushed feeling to fully exit the runway while still planning to hold short of the parallel and the hold short line appears while still moving fairly quickly. But then again, the wig-wags should be obvious.

Is there a written procedure at your company stating that the after landing flow/checklist can only be done such as after receiving a clearance to taxi in from ground? This is how it is done where I work. I hope you answer this question in the name of safety as this could be a cause factor worth looking into.

Even if you decide not to let us know, I suggest to everyone that this procedure be applied. It may not be 100% effective but it is designed to keep pilots looking outside at potentially critical moments.
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Rockie
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

Post by Rockie »

pelmet wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:45 am Is there a written procedure at your company stating that the after landing flow/checklist can only be done such as after receiving a clearance to taxi in from ground?
Without going into specifics we have a procedure and we also are placing great emphasis on avoiding these types of incursions where ever they may occur. We are also open to changing our procedures if we find something else is more effective.

Tell us about some procedures at your company that could use improvement.
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pelmet
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

Post by pelmet »

Rockie wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:05 am
pelmet wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:45 am Is there a written procedure at your company stating that the after landing flow/checklist can only be done such as after receiving a clearance to taxi in from ground?
Without going into specifics we have a procedure and we also are placing great emphasis on avoiding these types of incursions where ever they may occur. We are also open to changing our procedures if we find something else is more effective.

Tell us about some procedures at your company that could use improvement.
Rockie, have you ever landed in LAX on 24R to hold short 24L and while holding short on the angled taxiway(which really doesn't allow you to see whats departing) and a huge widebody speeds by you filling your windscreen. I'm sure you have and is not much different than YYZ or SFO, ANC and quite likely other airports. These hold short areas are a major disaster waiting to happen with similar results as Tenerife.

How about we discuss the specifics of what may be causing these incursions instead of wanting to change the subject to "some procedures at my company that could use improvement". I think I may have identified one of the reasons why we are having these near disasters. I have mentioned a policy at my company. Who knows, this thread could save 583 lives(the Tenerife toll). I think that is a little more important than keeping a company policy(or lack of) secret. Maybe it is time to decide what is more important. Your family could be the ones riding on Zed tickets somewhere for a vacation when someone from another carrier doesn't hold short due distractions from unnecessary after landing procedures being performed at an inappropriate time.

Keeping the lights on, flaps and speed brakes extended, and both pilots looking outside the cockpit window seems likely to reduce the chances of accidentally crossing a hold short line and passing by/over hold short lights.
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Last edited by pelmet on Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
Rockie
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

Post by Rockie »

I asked you what procedures at your company are inadequate, not which ones are. You can sleep easy tonight knowing Air Canada procedures are designed to prevent this kind of occurrance, yet as you well know nothing is 100% effective because despite our best efforts sometimes distractions and other things occur to erode the safety chain. That is not a dismissal of those events that do happen. This game is a constant battle to stay safe, and sitting back relaxing because we think we've hit on the perfect solution for anything is a mistake nobody should make.

But telling you specifically what our procedures are isn't going to make anything safer. If you really want to know what our procedures are I'll give you an address at flight operations you can write to and ask.
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pelmet
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

Post by pelmet »

pelmet wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:42 am I have mentioned a policy at my company. Who knows, this thread could save 583 lives(the Tenerife toll). I think that is a little more important than keeping a company policy(or lack of) secret. Maybe it is time to decide what is more important. Your family could be the ones riding on Zed tickets somewhere for a vacation when someone from another carrier doesn't hold short due distractions from unnecessary after landing procedures being performed at an inappropriate time.
Rockie wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:05 am But telling you specifically what our procedures are isn't going to make anything safer. If you really want to know what our procedures are I'll give you an address at flight operations you can write to and ask.
I suppose then...you have made your decision.

Thanks for the offer to give an address to me.
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Rockie
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

Post by Rockie »

Decision? What decision is that?

The thing about procedures is that once you design a procedure to protect yourself from something life comes along and shifts the goal posts a few feet to render that solution inadequate. Like I said it's a constant battle. I applaud your efforts to generate safety related discussions Pelmet, but your focus on Air Canada here is missplaced when the problem effects everybody.
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altiplano
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

Post by altiplano »

I think Rockie is right that: "the problem affects everybody."

I think that Pelmet is right that: "Perhaps there is a rushed feeling to fully exit the runway while still planning to hold short of the parallel and the hold short line appears while still moving fairly quickly."

So you end up cruising by a hold line which is 25-50 meters earlier - up to half a football field - than what you typically see. The picture is different than usual. You're still well back from the standard 90meters possibly expecting another line just ahead?

I would be interested to know how far over the line these incursions typically are? Maybe Cliff Jumper knows? And why doesn't Nav Canada change the marking to a standard distance? Put in an embedded, lit stop bar? How much you want to bet it would stop the incursions? Or does the GTAA need another bobble or display in the terminal instead?
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Cliff Jumper
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

Post by Cliff Jumper »

altiplano wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:57 am why doesn't Nav Canada put in an embedded, lit stop bar? How much you want to bet it would stop the incursions?
I'll take the bet, for as much money as you feel like donating (pick a charity of your choice).

I don't know how to reiterate without sounding condescending.

They already do, and have had for more than a decade.

Google Earth?
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altiplano
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

Post by altiplano »

The 'bet' comment was a figure of speech. Certainly you can never completely stop every eventuality.

Instead of being condescending how about joining the conversation on how to solve it? Again, I'll reiterate... multiple experienced professionals made the same mistake, guys who were trying their best and wanted to do a good job. Why did they miss the line? Were they just reckless F-ups?

Do you believe the layout can't somehow be improved?

I don't remember red stop bars embedded? Are you saying they are there? Maybe my memory is faulty, I don't take notes...

Can you answer my questions?

Why isn't the hold line placement standard?

How much over the stop line were the incursions?
Did anyone get onto the runway? Or just past the line and still less than the 90meter ICAO standard?
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pelmet
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

Post by pelmet »

altiplano wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:21 pmInstead of being condescending how about joining the conversation on how to solve it? Again, I'll reiterate... multiple experienced professionals made the same mistake, guys who were trying their best and wanted to do a good job. Why did they miss the line?
I think I have already answered that with a viable theory. Of course we have had the usual circling of wagons with accusations that I am focusing on AC but the other two airlines used as examples in this thread almost certainly don't have pilots on this forum to ask about their procedures. So I thought our AC guys could help resolve the very important question you keep asking. Unfortunately, they are not willing to participate.

Hold short lines can be in various locations. According to my Jepp chart for YYZ, there are even hold short lines on 24R/06L to hold short of the approach on 33R. But if you aren't looking for them, you won't see them. The question is...what is distractihg pilots enough to not see painted lines with hold short lights and wig-wags. I understand that the pilot taxiing might be concentrating on taxiing but what is the PNF/PM doing to miss this sort of thing. See my earlier posts as a possibility.
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Last edited by pelmet on Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Rockie
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

Post by Rockie »

pelmet wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:41 pm So I thought our AC guys could help resolve the very important question you keep asking. Unfortunately, they are not willing to participate.
AC's procedures are consistent with other airlines, spelling them out to you will not answer the question why there have been excursions. You'd have to read an investigative report to know that which I haven't. Maybe when you ask our ops to tell you our procedures they'll also tell you what they've found in that regard.

It's not an unwillingness to participate, it's an unwillingness to answer specific questions about our procedures especially when it gains nothing but pointlessly opening AC up to criticism from the peanut gallery.
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pelmet
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

Post by pelmet »

Rockie wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:57 pmAC's procedures are consistent with other airlines, spelling them out to you will not answer the question why there have been excursions. You'd have to read an investigative report to know that which I haven't.
I have my doubts about that. There are likely many differences from airline to airline when it come to "procedures". Anyways, we're not going to get the requested info from you or others and that is what it is. And one certainly doesn't need to read a report to come up with a viable reason in general for a situation like this.

As a further note....I have just looked at Google earth as suggested and see that the enhanced taxiway centerline markings are also used to notify the crew of an approaching hold short line. The only answer I can come up with is "not aware/forgot/not looking".

These things can happen. Back in my private pilot days, I crossed an active runway without clearance more than 20 years ago due to forgetting to hold short. I could get defensive and make excuses but the reality is....I forgot.
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Rockie
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

Post by Rockie »

pelmet wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:04 pm I have my doubts about that.
Feel free to doubt all you like without benefit of any facts whatsoever. Knowing our procedures would bring you no closer to understanding why a crew would cross the hold line at AC any more than it would some other carrier. If whatever procedures had been followed in any of these incidents they wouldn't have happened don't you think? Unless you think AC's procedures are to ignore ATC instructions...
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Cliff Jumper
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

Post by Cliff Jumper »

pelmet wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:45 am
Is there a written procedure at your company stating that the after landing flow/checklist can only be done such as after receiving a clearance to taxi in from ground? This is how it is done where I work.
I'm not into fighting on avcanada, or picking sides, but I'm genuinely interested in this procedure, that you say is already in place. Could you provide the exact verbiage? or a copy of the page? you can redact the name to remain anonymous.
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pelmet
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

Post by pelmet »

Cliff Jumper wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:56 pm
pelmet wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:45 am
Is there a written procedure at your company stating that the after landing flow/checklist can only be done such as after receiving a clearance to taxi in from ground? This is how it is done where I work.
I'm not into fighting on avcanada, or picking sides, but I'm genuinely interested in this procedure, that you say is already in place. Could you provide the exact verbiage? or a copy of the page? you can redact the name to remain anonymous.
Like most companies, we have an ops manual. As well, there are memos on certain procedures the company wants us to follow. Part of the statement on vacating runways in the manual states..."No switch or lever shall be repositioned after landing until clear of the active runway unless necessary for the safe control of the aircraft." After a incident similar to what has been posted on this thread involving close parallel runways with a hold short clearance which was caused by the captain becoming distracted by the copilot operating the landing lights, a memo was produced about including close parallel runways being included in this practice. Therefore in my experience we always have a taxi clearance prior to the after landing flow. It is just the way it always works out.

Based on the non-answers I got from Rockie(which actually are a fairly clear answer), that alone is different from the procedure at his airline. Of course there are other major airlines that have significant differences in procedures as we all know. I could name one or two off the top of my head but it is pointless to the discussion of how to prevent incusions.
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cossack
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

Post by cossack »

Hold lines are 200' from the runway edge. ICAO does refer to distances from the runway centreline, but since some runways are 150'/45m wide and others (incl. YYZ) are 200'/60m wide, I don't believe that distance is used. If the distances at YYZ are more than this, then that's down to the GTAA, as its their airport.

I've said this before: there are lit red stop bars at every exit from 06R/24L which are on maximum brilliancy during the day and one setting higher than all other lights at night.

If the hold line is a few metres (not 25-50m) closer than expected, there is still no excuse for not seeing the lit bar. Most of the incursions are at speeds of less than 15kt after a correct readback of the "hold short" instruction which tells me that you know there's a line coming up but for some reason, at the most critical time, you weren't looking outside.

The stop bars are alarmed and the incursions are usually less than an aircraft length over the line as a further "stop" instruction is issued.

All the controllers here have had aircraft call 121.9 while between the runways even though no frequency change was given.
We've heard calls to company frequency on guard from an aircraft in between the runways, sometimes while the aircraft is still moving. Really! You have to make that call right now?

The D6 exit from 24L is shorter than the others so that line can creep up on you but since it 8000' down a 9000' runway, you're not going in there at 50kt.

Fly safe and taxi safe.
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Rockie
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

Post by Rockie »

pelmet wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:35 pm Based on the non-answers I got from Rockie(which actually are a fairly clear answer), that alone is different from the procedure at his airline.
You apparently missed the part where I said our procedures are consistent with other operators, and that includes yours. You are also missing the fact that despite those procedures these events still happen suggesting that something caused those procedures to either not be followed, or ineffective under the specific circumstance.

What? You think your company is unique Pelmet? Your company alone has it all figured out?
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pelmet
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

Post by pelmet »

Rockie wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:03 pm What? You think your company is unique Pelmet? Your company alone has it all figured out?
Looks like I do anyways...Merry Christmas.
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Rockie
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

Post by Rockie »

pelmet wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:04 pm Looks like I do anyways...Merry Christmas.
So you think...until you don't.

Merry Christmas to you too.
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