PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

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pelmet
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PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#1 Post by pelmet » Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:38 am

"C-FAUA, a Piper PA-34-200T aircraft operated by Montair Aviation, was on a local training flight from Pitt Meadows, BC (CYPK) with an instructor and a student pilot on board. During the takeoff roll, the aircraft reached takeoff speed but did not become airborne. The instructor elected to abort the takeoff, however was unable to stop the aircraft before it exited the paved surface. The aircraft travelled a short distance and came to an abrupt stop in soft grass. There were no injuries, however the aircraft sustained damage to the nose landing gear and both propellers."

Would be curious to know why this one couldn't get airborne.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#2 Post by C.W.E. » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:01 pm

That is weird.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#3 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:27 pm

I’d be interested in WX conditions. Surface contamination? I’d also be interested in how they know somebody not on board would know if they reached takeoff speed?
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#4 Post by 7ECA » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:21 pm

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/c ... d2017P2231

November 23, was a nice day in the Lower Mainland. No surface contamination, not a chance.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#5 Post by YYZSaabGuy » Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:17 am

Elevator control lock not removed during pre-flight?
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#6 Post by pdw » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:25 pm

pelmet wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:38 am
Would be curious to know why this one couldn't get airborne.
I've read a few times where "control lock" left on .. can be fatal (e.g. one early USA Caravan accident).

To rule out runway shear, need nearest applicable METAR(s). That can be on "nice day"s esp, when not expecting an llws ( airspeed-gain interrupted).
the aircraft reached take-off speed but did not become airborne

That's where it says 'the instructor pulled the power' ... for whatever was amiss.
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Last edited by pdw on Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:58 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#7 Post by AuxBatOn » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:41 pm

Windshear on the takeoff roll, really? Better be a 50kts shear... Otherwise, you'll accelerate through it.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#8 Post by GyvAir » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:44 pm

pdw wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:25 pm
pelmet wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:38 am
Would be curious to know why this one couldn't get airborne.
To rule out runway shear, get nearest applicable METAR(s).
the aircraft reached take-off speed but did not become airborne (ie: instructor pulled power for something amiss)
\

I remember Doc asking you once something to the effect of "Have you had ever even had a ride in an airplane before?"
The question still bears asking.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#9 Post by rookiepilot » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:50 pm

I experienced substantial positive headwind shear on my drive home last night after Christmas dinner.

Substantially affected airspeed, gas pedal pressure, and noise from the A pillars on the van.

Groundspeed remained constant. :mrgreen:
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#10 Post by GyvAir » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:26 pm

I guess runway shear could slow you down..

Image
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#11 Post by rookiepilot » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:32 pm

GyvAir wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:26 pm
I guess runway shear could slow you down..

Image

That would.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#12 Post by HiFlyChick » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:09 pm

7ECA wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:21 pm
http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/c ... d2017P2231

November 23, was a nice day in the Lower Mainland. No surface contamination, not a chance.
Contamination on the wings was my first thought too....

I'm not familiar with that airport so I looked up the specs, and the runway they took off on was 5000 ft long. I wonder if they made an intersection departure? 5000 ft is a lot of room to accelerate to T/O speed and abort, so there's definitely some details missing.

Accidental downwind T/O?
Was that what that whole weird wind shear discussion was trying to suggest...? Glad you guys will call out posters that are "talking through their hat" - I may be experienced in flying (at least in the light twin/703 category), but I'm terribly gullible in general. I'm not always quick to pick up on guys that are just making stuff up :)
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#13 Post by rookiepilot » Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:08 pm

A 30 knot tailwind must have suddenly appeared. So suddenly it didn't get measured nor show on the sock.

Cause of every accident. Dissolve the TSB.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#14 Post by pdw » Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:09 pm

Shear accidents are so often fatal; so they make the news more IMO, that's all. No more than 5% .. and usually something else too. I'd say even a 10-15kt difference could hesitate an airspeed to be noticeable as described ... for 3 or 4 seconds ...

Just wanted to say in answer to Pelmet's opening post that if an instructor was overly sharp and was paying attention to accelerate stop on a shorter runway .. maybe that's a possibility. Try checking it out for yourself .. if that kind of thing is going on there or not ? I won't bother this time.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#15 Post by rookiepilot » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:32 pm

pdw wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:09 pm
Shear accidents are so often fatal; so they make the news more IMO, that's all. No more than 5% .. and usually something else too. I'd say even a 10-15kt difference could hesitate an airspeed to be noticeable as described ... for 3 or 4 seconds ...

Just wanted to say in answer to Pelmet's opening post that if an instructor was overly sharp and was paying attention to accelerate stop on a shorter runway .. maybe that's a possibility. Try checking it out for yourself .. if that kind of thing is going on there or not ? I won't bother this time.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
PDW,

No one forces anyone to make a takeoff decision, in a strong tailwind, storm, icing, too short a runway, inappropriate weather, with insufficient fuel, daylight, experience, visibility, or too much weight.

Strong, or gusty wind conditions, or anything else like the above, are to be compensated for the pilot in command, or to decide to takeoff or not takeoff. Period.

I've had actual wind shear on one landing in mountainous terrain in gusty wind conditions. In one second airspeed went from Normal approach + 15 knots, to the stall warning activating loudly. I estimate I lost 25 to 30 knots instantly. Landing short would have meant hitting the side of the plateau the runway was located on.

Probably, in hindsight, wind was too strong for my experience and that particular airport on that day. So, my responsibility in the end. I was prepared for the possibility due to the terrain and conditions, and jammed on the power.

Yes, on that, having ones hand on the throttle on final is a good idea. Good thing I did.

My impression is such severe incidents are pretty rare. 10 knots should not be an issue in any light aircraft.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#16 Post by 7ECA » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:41 pm

HiFlyChick wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:09 pm
Contamination on the wings was my first thought too....

I'm not familiar with that airport so I looked up the specs, and the runway they took off on was 5000 ft long. I wonder if they made an intersection departure? 5000 ft is a lot of room to accelerate to T/O speed and abort, so there's definitely some details missing.

Accidental downwind T/O?
Was that what that whole weird wind shear discussion was trying to suggest...? Glad you guys will call out posters that are "talking through their hat" - I may be experienced in flying (at least in the light twin/703 category), but I'm terribly gullible in general. I'm not always quick to pick up on guys that are just making stuff up :)
From what I remember, and I could be wrong - the temperature was something like 8°C that afternoon. Surface/runway contamination - not even remotely likely.

The takeoff was made on 26L, from Alpha - so darn near as close to the full 5000' as you're going to get. The aircraft ended up off the end of the runway and in the grass on the 08R side. A downwind takeoff is extremely unlikely, as Pitt is controlled - and they've got a reputation for switching runways as soon as the wind even considers changing directions.

Just ball parking the Accelerate/Stop distance for a Seneca (POH I have is for a Seneca III), at MTOW/Sea Level, 10°C, calm winds), you need around 3000' or so of runway.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#17 Post by Redneck_pilot86 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:14 pm

Any idea where on the runway the take-off attempt was aborted? Seems to me it either wasn't making full power, or the brakes were on.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#18 Post by pdw » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:44 pm

To a newbie the pronounced slowing of airspeed in this type of shear description (lost airspeed/gained groundspeed) might seem like brakes are applied for the seconds it lasts; the groundspeed increases thoughout the event. Departs in Westerly-component/11degC on rwy26 (275T) and cuts into 'ESE 16deg C' (some stations south/southeast of the airport .. max 17C) when well past the airport buildings (the hangar/wind-indicator at the East end of field). The warmer overrunning ESE component might cut "10kts" airspeed very smoothly yet sharply over short distance/seconds at rotation; an actual 15-20kts left-tailquartering (past 90deg left crosswind) is the surprise .. and the issue is said to be just at rotation. A student is taught to cut power if something starts to feel too unstable; so yes, maybe some confusion where losing some seconds in deceleration when an instructor/coach takes over ? (This is in the warm sector of a LO, a system centered at the time nearby/northwest towards Prince Rupert).

8degC air is possible over the Fraser River there (a very wide waterway located alongside the Airport's main runway) which contains the very cold runoff from the snow-melt in the mountains. A westerly flow is evident across Burnaby area too .. which must be underpinning that inflow of WARM (the warm sector). The lowest temp that day at the airport is 9C.

GyvAir/ Illya, feel free to dig up the account of my own personal aviation incident in landing North/downhill at Jordan Valley ON. "Powering thru" risked fatality if not having killed power when realizing uncertainty of how much runway left beyond the knoll. With a WNW windsock down low (northend), mine turned out a new component was SOUTH flowing just above the valley. The sock changed gradually after, but on the knoll was already SOUTH.

Is there any up slope on Pitt Meadows rwy26 .. to put the twin a little higher about midpoint ?
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#19 Post by Diadem » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:11 pm

... :?
What? That was complete gibberish. Are you saying a system in Prince Rupert caused an airplane to run off the end of the runway in Pitt Meadows?
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#20 Post by pdw » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:07 pm

The eye is north and the atmosphere at Pitt meadows Airport is in that system, with effects of terrain. By the looks of it not a weak LO. If looked like "nice day", a warm south-easterly air-current .. just saying ..would have easily been a bit of a surprise on this westerly take-off for the lowtime pilot.

Maybe Pelmet can confirm a precise time for this incident ?
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#21 Post by GyvAir » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:16 pm

Occurrence Date:
2017-11-23
Occurrence Time:
2245 Z
Local Time:
14:45

Pitt Meadows Weather:
Pitt Meadows.png
Pitt Meadows.png (32.36 KiB) Viewed 3213 times
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#22 Post by AuxBatOn » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:27 pm

Every accident has a freak windshear at the worst possible moment.

How much aviation experience do you have pdw? How many types have you flown, how many hours and when did you get a license?
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#23 Post by pelmet » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:33 pm

It almost seems like he wants to blame his incident on the winds and make it the unavoidable cause of every accident. Which, would be a very unsafe thing to promote for most accidents.

I truly hope that someone with knowledge of the YPK incident comes forth with the actual cause so we can finally debunk this faulty theory which I fear could be creating more hazard than it is decreasing hazard based on inexperienced people reading this kind of info..
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Last edited by pelmet on Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#24 Post by GyvAir » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:51 pm

PDW's posts on these forums related to aviation accidents really ought to come with disclaimers preceding and following them, just in case they are ever taken seriously.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#25 Post by rookiepilot » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:51 pm

GyvAir wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:16 pm
Occurrence Date:
2017-11-23
Occurrence Time:
2245 Z
Local Time:
14:45

Pitt Meadows Weather:
Pitt Meadows.png

I'm looking for that 20 knot quartering tailwind.
I can't even...... :roll: ......done here.

Let's assume you're correct, PDW, for fun.

I've taken off with variable, 15-20 knot crosswinds moving from a slight headwind to tailwind, and back again. In a light single. Actually watched the sock for a few minutes to decide which way. Then just went. Wasn't a big deal with the inputs put in.

In a twin, I'd imagine it would be far less of a deal. All FWIW, of course.

And YPK is no big deal at all. Long, wide runway, no terrain.
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