Westwind

[tps8903]

Deleted.

[rookiepilot]

they will also tell you not to talk to the investigators as well.....it's your right to keep you mouth shut....and the smart thing to do.

Wow. A crew involved in a major accident can actually refuse to help investigators learn the cause, as to prevent future accidents?

Or would even choose to do so?

[Cliff Jumper]

Wow. A crew involved in a major accident can actually refuse to help investigators learn the cause, as to prevent future accidents?

Not really. CTAISB Act Quotes..... ( http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts ... lText.html )

(9) An investigator who is investigating a transportation occurrence may
(a) (i) by notice in writing signed by the investigator, require the person to produce the information to the investigator or to attend before the investigator and give a statement referred to in section 30, under oath or solemn affirmation if required by the investigator, and

Plus, why would you want to withhold the truth? It's completely protected....

(7) A statement shall not be used against the person who made it in any legal or other proceedings except in a prosecution for perjury or for giving contradictory evidence or a prosecution under section 35.

[FlyGy]

I've seen the WW ATR around. It's pretty much an all pax operation....at least it used to be, it's why it was so desired. Hence my question.

Have you flown on it? I've been on both Transwest and Westwind many times over the years, often there is freight strapped down on passenger seats because the cargo hold was full. I've been told that this flight was no different.

[atphat]

I've seen the WW ATR around. It's pretty much an all pax operation....at least it used to be, it's why it was so desired. Hence my question.

Have you flown on it? I've been on both Transwest and Westwind many times over the years, often there is freight strapped down on passenger seats because the cargo hold was full. I've been told that this flight was no different.

I have not. Fair enough.

[Cat Driver]

Thanks for giving us all the good advice tps8903 it makes reading this forum all that much more important for me to learn what to do and what not to do.

So in a nut shell if you are involved in a serious accident do not co-operate with the accident investigators let a lawyer talk to them. For sure if something in the airplane did not work and it was the main cause for crashing do not tell anyone so as to protect myself, yeh that makes perfect sense to me.

How about if I damage something in the airplane that makes it highly likely that it may eventually kill someone unless it is fixed, would your advice be don't tell anyone?

By the way what do they put in your water in Newfoundland now that makes you so much smarter than the rest of us?

[tps8903]

I've deleted my original post. I stand by my post, however have no interest in engaging with a troll online. I love debating, but when people start commenting on where I live and how smart I think I am, well I'm just wasting my time and it angers me. WOOOO SAAAA.

[C.W.E.]

deleted

[rookiepilot]

I've deleted my original post. I stand by my post, however have no interest in engaging with a troll online. I love debating, but when people start commenting on where I live and how smart I think I am, well I'm just wasting my time and it angers me. WOOOO SAAAA.

You stand by counselling a pilot to disregard the law? Is that correct?

" CTAISB Act Quotes..... ( http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts ... lText.html )

(9) An investigator who is investigating a transportation occurrence may
(a) (i) by notice in writing signed by the investigator, require the person to produce the information to the investigator or to attend before the investigator and give a statement referred to in section 30, under oath or solemn affirmation if required by the investigator."

Pretty clear it is NOT optional to cooperate.

"(10) No person shall refuse or fail to produce information to an investigator, or to attend before an investigator and give a statement, in accordance with a requirement imposed under paragraph (9)(a), or to provide information in accordance with a requirement imposed under paragraph (9)(c)"

[tps8903]

I've deleted my original post. I stand by my post, however have no interest in engaging with a troll online. I love debating, but when people start commenting on where I live and how smart I think I am, well I'm just wasting my time and it angers me. WOOOO SAAAA.

You stand by counselling a pilot to disregard the law? Is that correct?

" CTAISB Act Quotes..... ( http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts ... lText.html )

(9) An investigator who is investigating a transportation occurrence may
(a) (i) by notice in writing signed by the investigator, require the person to produce the information to the investigator or to attend before the investigator and give a statement referred to in section 30, under oath or solemn affirmation if required by the investigator."

Pretty clear it is NOT optional to cooperate.

"(10) No person shall refuse or fail to produce information to an investigator, or to attend before an investigator and give a statement, in accordance with a requirement imposed under paragraph (9)(a), or to provide information in accordance with a requirement imposed under paragraph (9)(c)"

I stand by the fact that you are guaranteed the right to silence in this country. The Charter is the Supreme law of this country.

I did not counsel any one to disregard a law.

[rookiepilot]

TPS,

That position in my opinion may imperil the safety of others.

Individual rights in aviation, or any position of high public trust or position of safety, are totally subservient to the rights of the public.

And that is what the law, rightly, is saying.

[Loner]

I've deleted my original post. I stand by my post, however have no interest in engaging with a troll online. I love debating, but when people start commenting on where I live and how smart I think I am, well I'm just wasting my time and it angers me. WOOOO SAAAA.

You stand by counselling a pilot to disregard the law? Is that correct?

" CTAISB Act Quotes..... ( http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts ... lText.html )

(9) An investigator who is investigating a transportation occurrence may
(a) (i) by notice in writing signed by the investigator, require the person to produce the information to the investigator or to attend before the investigator and give a statement referred to in section 30, under oath or solemn affirmation if required by the investigator."

Pretty clear it is NOT optional to cooperate.

"(10) No person shall refuse or fail to produce information to an investigator, or to attend before an investigator and give a statement, in accordance with a requirement imposed under paragraph (9)(a), or to provide information in accordance with a requirement imposed under paragraph (9)(c)"

I stand by the fact that you are guaranteed the right to silence in this country. The Charter is the Supreme law of this country.

I did not counsel any one to disregard a law.

TPS...Is this the kind of moral and ethics you have been taught as a kid? Do you consider yourself as someone with integrity?

[bald seagull]

So I decided to look up the ATR-42-320 numbers, because I've never flown one (used 'basic')......

- MTOW: 36,817 lbs

- Operational Empty Weight = 24,030 lbs (typical in service)
- Max Fuel Load = 9,921 lbs
- 22 pax x 188 lbs (avg male / female even split) = 4,136 lbs

Takeoff weight no cargo or luggage = 38,087 (1,270 lbs over MTOW)

Takeoff distance @ MTOW - ISA - SL = 3,953
Fond du Lac runway length = 3,805

Will be interested to see what their fuel load was......

As mentioned, I've never flown the aircraft type, so if my numbers are off, jump in those who have flown the type.


http://www.atraircraft.com/products_app ... re2014.pdf

[schnitzel2k3]

...

[schnitzel2k3]

Pretty sure we don't abide by the 5th.

Also pretty sure they didn't depart max fuel.

Good luck to all pleading the 5th.

S.

[RatherBeFlying]

If you're a cop and kill somebody in the line of duty, you get to keep your mouth shut.

If you're a pilot and kill one or more pax in an aviation accident, you are required to report the facts to TSB, but as noted your testimony to TSB is protected.

Guess who has the more powerful union.

[leftoftrack]

Is there fuel in fond du lac? Do the have de-icing facilities? Is their crew rest facilities if they duty out?

[schnitzel2k3]

No. No. Sort of.

[Wonderdog]

Temp -4, Dew point -5, freezing rain, any aircraft.

Someone reread - From the Ground Up.

Condolence's from all to all involved.

This shit should NOT happen at home, if anywhere. Again!

Be well,

Wonderdog

[RatherBeFlying]

Maybe they had been getting away with whichever lapse(s) had become commonplace until the flight path got into the trees.

Lots of possibilities:

Not using entire runway
Not checking performance against charts, especially engine out
Tolerating a bit of frost or frozen precip
No access to check and/or deice wing and tailplane
Black hole and illusions

Interestingly the current issue of the Aviation Safety Letter discusses an accident where a C-182 pilot flew into the ground shortly after a night takeoff out of Parry Sound. Taking off at night, I'm on the artificial horizon from shortly after rotate until I have 500'.