10 year take home pay

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DropTanks
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#26 Post by DropTanks » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:01 pm

His math works. Take the $216k and subtract the total tax, ESP, and other line items. Then divide by 26 and you get roughly $2176 net per pay. It's shocking I know. That's what happens when you have to defer 20% of your pay AND pay tax on an extra 20%. Ouch! But it's simple math. Nobody's getting ripped off, nobody's paying more taxes than any other citizen.

The part that always seems to be forgotten and I have no idea why is that in the mentioned example at the end of the year this guy has $76000 at his disposal in his ESP. He didn't get to take it home every two weeks, he had to wait but it's there nonetheless. That's a huge amount of cash each and every year to play with and anybody should be able to figure out how to work with $2176/pay PLUS $76000 cash per year. If they can't well then they're doing it wrong.

IMHO people making the above money should be using that $76000 as follows...

$25000/yr investment in RRSP maximum allowed
$11000/yr in his and hers TSFA maximum investments
That's retirement taken care of.

That leaves $40000/yr to spend as follows...
$10000/yr for new his/hers vehicles every 10 yrs paid in CASH! ($50k per vehicle)
$30000/yr for home renos, pay down mortgage, investment properties, kids college fund or whatever floats your boat. Oh right! Don't forget the boat!

So as you can see the so called "meager take home" every two weeks doesn't have to cover half the stuff most regular folks need to cover with just $2176. No car payments, no retirement contributions, or any other big ticket items.

Ps: Don't forget the profit share and stock options too. They're not guaranteed of course but it sure is nice to gross another $10000 or so here and there.

The challenge people have at WJ is not a "total cash" problem...it's a "cash flow" problem. Those who have it figured out are just cruising, those that don't have it figured out seem to be suffering.

Pps: This last comment doesn't mean we are paid fairly compared to our comparators. We are not! We are way behind A/C in every way. But we're working on it. I'm just tired of hearing "I'm broke because we are underpaid!" When the truth is "no, you're broke because you can't manage your cash flow". You make over $200k ffs! It's an insult to people trying to scrape by on $50k/yr when you say you can't do it on $200k.
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#27 Post by Bede » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:07 pm

Droptanks pretty much nailed it.
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#28 Post by North Shore » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:59 pm

DropTanks wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:01 pm
His math works. Take the $216k and subtract the total tax, ESP, and other line items. Then divide by 26 and you get roughly $2176 net per pay. It's shocking I know. That's what happens when you have to defer 20% of your pay AND pay tax on an extra 20%. Ouch! But it's simple math. Nobody's getting ripped off, nobody's paying more taxes than any other citizen.
:oops: forgot to carry the one.. :oops:
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#29 Post by Duke15 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:58 pm

His math is wrong, the eesp contribution would be about 43000$ per year not the 76000$ he said, don’t have time to check the rest but I can guarantee you it’s not correct as I work for the conmpany. Not trying to defend it as I am very vocal within the company about how low the wages are but they are definitly not this low.
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#30 Post by DropTanks » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:31 pm

Duke15 wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:58 pm
His math is wrong, the eesp contribution would be about 43000$ per year not the 76000$ he said, don’t have time to check the rest but I can guarantee you it’s not correct as I work for the conmpany. Not trying to defend it as I am very vocal within the company about how low the wages are but they are definitly not this low.
🤔 Nope, the math works. We're not talking about just the company's match here. We're talking about the total in the ESP account at the end of the year...roughly $76000 per year if doing full 20% ESP in the example. I guess in your case if you're contributing $43000 then the company matched another $43000 that's $86000 per year in ESP account.
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#31 Post by Duke15 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:17 pm

DropTanks wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:31 pm
Duke15 wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:58 pm
His math is wrong, the eesp contribution would be about 43000$ per year not the 76000$ he said, don’t have time to check the rest but I can guarantee you it’s not correct as I work for the conmpany. Not trying to defend it as I am very vocal within the company about how low the wages are but they are definitly not this low.
🤔 Nope, the math works. We're not talking about just the company's match here. We're talking about the total in the ESP account at the end of the year...roughly $76000 per year if doing full 20% ESP in the example. I guess in your case if you're contributing $43000 then the company matched another $43000 that's $86000 per year in ESP account.
It’s not correct, for starters esp is based on pre tax income. His number is no where near the 20% you contribute or even that plus what the company matches, I’ve been here for three years and take home more than that every two weeks with maybe 300$ in perform as I do single days. He’s not even close to the correct number. How did he determine std/Ltd etc.
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#32 Post by DropTanks » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:16 pm

Duke15 wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:17 pm
DropTanks wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:31 pm
Duke15 wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:58 pm
His math is wrong, the eesp contribution would be about 43000$ per year not the 76000$ he said, don’t have time to check the rest but I can guarantee you it’s not correct as I work for the conmpany. Not trying to defend it as I am very vocal within the company about how low the wages are but they are definitly not this low.
🤔 Nope, the math works. We're not talking about just the company's match here. We're talking about the total in the ESP account at the end of the year...roughly $76000 per year if doing full 20% ESP in the example. I guess in your case if you're contributing $43000 then the company matched another $43000 that's $86000 per year in ESP account.
It’s not correct, for starters esp is based on pre tax income. His number is no where near the 20% you contribute or even that plus what the company matches, I’ve been here for three years and take home more than that every two weeks with maybe 300$ in perform as I do single days. He’s not even close to the correct number. How did he determine std/Ltd etc.
Dude I don't know what to tell you because the numbers don't lie. He used top Captain hourly rate x 77.5 x12 months. Take that x 1.2 to include ESP from company then subtract the taxes etc. Its all correct. I've been here three years as well and use this simple math every year to determine my ESP contribution for payroll reducing tax at source. Always bang on. What I can say is that IF you take home more than $2176/pay during the regular year, not after maxing EI and CPP like this time of year...I'm talking like early on, IF you're taking home more than that then I'm betting you're not doing full 20% ESP. There's just no way. That's the only way your take home could be that high while claiming the example ESP numbers are way too high. Check your pay stub, the ESP portion for a 3rd yr F/O should be around $580 and the same for company match = $1160/pay x26 = $30160 (3rd year F/O). The OP was for a 10yr Cpt making about $196/hr or whatever it is these days. Same calculation results in his ESP contribution of $1400, matched by company makes it $2800/pay x26 pays = $72800 total ESP/yr for 10yr Cpt. That's based on min 77.5hrs per month. Hope that clears it up a bit.
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#33 Post by Duke15 » Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:28 am

DropTanks wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:16 pm
Duke15 wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:17 pm
DropTanks wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:31 pm


🤔 Nope, the math works. We're not talking about just the company's match here. We're talking about the total in the ESP account at the end of the year...roughly $76000 per year if doing full 20% ESP in the example. I guess in your case if you're contributing $43000 then the company matched another $43000 that's $86000 per year in ESP account.
It’s not correct, for starters esp is based on pre tax income. His number is no where near the 20% you contribute or even that plus what the company matches, I’ve been here for three years and take home more than that every two weeks with maybe 300$ in perform as I do single days. He’s not even close to the correct number. How did he determine std/Ltd etc.
Dude I don't know what to tell you because the numbers don't lie. He used top Captain hourly rate x 77.5 x12 months. Take that x 1.2 to include ESP from company then subtract the taxes etc. Its all correct. I've been here three years as well and use this simple math every year to determine my ESP contribution for payroll reducing tax at source. Always bang on. What I can say is that IF you take home more than $2176/pay during the regular year, not after maxing EI and CPP like this time of year...I'm talking like early on, IF you're taking home more than that then I'm betting you're not doing full 20% ESP. There's just no way. That's the only way your take home could be that high while claiming the example ESP numbers are way too high. Check your pay stub, the ESP portion for a 3rd yr F/O should be around $580 and the same for company match = $1160/pay x26 = $30160 (3rd year F/O). The OP was for a 10yr Cpt making about $196/hr or whatever it is these days. Same calculation results in his ESP contribution of $1400, matched by company makes it $2800/pay x26 pays = $72800 total ESP/yr for 10yr Cpt. That's based on min 77.5hrs per month. Hope that clears it up a bit.
I am doing the full percentage, and my hourly isn’t even half of 193, and your telling me that doubling my hourly I’ll oblt be pulling in 2100$ every two weeks... Encore captains make more than that granted it’s only 10%. The take home pay is significantly higher than 2100$ every two weeks. After espp contribution it’s 5983$ remaining minus tax and the rest. You are not loosing out on 66% of that pay.
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#34 Post by aerobod » Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:15 am

I think you are all closer than you think, it comes down to how the ESPP amount matures and how that is incorporated into the bi-weekly earnings. If we assume that after 15 months of employment the ESPP portion that is not kept in an RRSP is then cashed quarterly and the amount that is obtained is divided equally over 6.5 paycheques and we look at 2 scenarios to give a range; A single person who takes the benefit plan options to minimise medical coverage and maximise cash, so that after tax cash is enough to cover LTD payments (the company covers STD in the default selection), this person is assumed to live in Alberta. The second scenario is a person living in Ontario who uses all the standard benefits coverage for a family and pays the full LTD of approximately $3,000 per year and saves the maximum 2017 $26,010 RRSP contribution within the ESPP.

The average figures for a $193/hr captain working 77.5 hours per month with no overtime would be close to this:
Alberta Scenario
Gross base salary: $179,490
ESPP contribution: $35,898 (maximum 20% of base)
Gross Income: $215,388
EI/CPP: $3,400
RRSP Contribution: $0
Taxable Incoime: $211,988
Federal & Alberta Tax: $69,983 (average tax rate 33.0%, marginal 47.0%)
LTD $0 (covered by benefits plan taxable cash)
Bi-Weekly Net pay: $5,461 ($2,700 base + $2,761 ESPP cashed in)

Ontario Scenario
Gross base salary: $179,490
ESPP contribution: $35,898 (maximum 20% of base)
Gross Income: $215,388
EI/CPP: $3,400
RRSP Contribution: $26,010
Taxable Incoime: $185,978
Federal & Ontario Tax: $64,123 (average tax rate 34.5%, marginal 48.0%)
LTD $3,000
Bi-Weekly Net pay: $4,571 ($2,810 base + $1,761 ESPP cashed in) + $1,000 RRSP Contribution
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#35 Post by Soixante-Neuf » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:16 am

*Everyone needs to understand the poster directly above is fuddling with the numbers. He is including what is essentially your retirement income into your bi-weekly take-home pay to make the numbers look better. The numbers below are AC take-home, and retirement income is completely separate -- as it should be.*

-----

AC year 5 E190 Captain (5 years total company service) with no contribution to your optional ESOP (but obviously including your pension contributions and full deductions off your cheque) and including per diem is taking home $8,500 to $9,500 a month money in your bank account with zero overtime.

A year 5 E190 FO, no ESOP, with per diem, would take home roughly $5,000 to $6,000 a month into their bank accounts, no overtime.

For roughly the same years of service (5 or 6), a 320 Captain would take home roughly $1,000 to $1,500 more than an E190 Captain; certainly north of $10,000/month, maybe sometimes closer to $11,000/month into the bank account, no overtime.

The $1,000 range varies based on where you are in your CPP/EI contributions for the year, and slight hourly fluctuations (almost always 80-85 hour months for the Captain seat) and slight per diem fluctuations to do with which kind of pairings you are flying, and also day vs. night rates and the seasonality of that.

This does not include profit share which is a separate cheque in April. Minimum pre-tax profit share per pilot is roughly $9,000/year (most junior pilot) with a maximum profit share of around $20,000 a year for a 777 Captain.

The reason in the massive disparity between WJ and AC take home pay is that WJ pilots do not have a pension plan and have to contribute to their ESOP (20%) for any money in retirement, and ESOP is taxable. AC also pays 100% of your entire family benefit package (health/drug/dental) and 100% of your short & long term disability benefit package, which makes a massive difference in take home pay. This is why a top-scale 12 year WJ Captain on a 737 takes home roughly the same pay as a 5 year E190 FO at AC.

The pension in retirement (both defined benefit and the new target benefit plan for new hires) on a full career at AC with normal career progression should be around $165,000 to $170,000 a year pre-tax until death, with a survivor benefit for your spouse.
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#36 Post by aerobod » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:37 am

Soixante-Neuf wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:16 am
*Everyone needs to understand the poster directly above is fuddling with the numbers. He is including what is essentially your retirement income into your bi-weekly take-home pay to make the numbers look better. The numbers below are AC take-home, and retirement income is completely separate -- as it should be.*
I'm sorry, but you have a fundamental mis-understanding of what the ESPP at WestJet is for. It is not purely for retirement purposes. My "fuddling with the numbers" (sic) is based on 2 scenarios, the second which goes to the maximum tax-free RRSP contribution allowed at the 2017 level i.e. 14.5% of annual gross salary at the example earning rate. However much you make in retirement is going to depend on how wisely you invest that 14.5%, but at 2017 rates across a 45 year career, how much could be earned on the $1.17 million invested and what the retirement payments would be are going to be dependent on your own investment choices.

Also the example bi-weekly salary of $4,571 (equivalent to $9,903 monthly) does not include any profit share, RSU or stock option income. Profit share has been around 10% the past couple of years, but has ranged from 3% to 20% of salary in the past 10 years. RSU and stock option earnings are extremely difficult to predict, but could vary from a few percent to several tens of percent depending on stock performance and timing of stock sales.
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#37 Post by 4Stroke » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:54 am

Soixante-Neuf:

BANG ON!!! :prayer:

No matter who/what tries to spin things, the reality is a true eye-opener.

But this is all academic, as no WJ pilots are leaving to AC.



.
:wink:
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#38 Post by Lemon » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:52 pm

4Stroke wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:54 am


But this is all academic, as no WJ pilots are leaving to AC.
There’s been at least a half dozen in the last few months.
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#39 Post by DropTanks » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:57 am

It occurred to me this morning as I compiled my annual tax reduction at source. In order to compare apples to apples for take home pay we must also consider the tax return on the $26000 contributed to the WJ pilots RRSP. Should account for another $1000/month take home.
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#40 Post by brooks » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:19 pm

Lemon wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:52 pm
4Stroke wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:54 am


But this is all academic, as no WJ pilots are leaving to AC.
There’s been at least a half dozen in the last few months.
I heard its more like 30 have gone with 500+ WJ resumes at AC.
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#41 Post by DaveP » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:49 pm

Hi B
10 have left from WJ since Aug/Sept.
All pretty junior guys n a couple gals (mostly 25/26000 emp numbers) with the exception of two that had a few years service in. Sorry for the thread drift!
Cheers
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#42 Post by privateer » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:15 pm

When does swoop plan to start service?
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#43 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:24 am

I don't know what my average take home pay is as I rarely work my posted schedule, but as a 15 year employee and 13 year captain on the NG Flica says I worked (FACT) 739 hours and fifty nine minutes of hard time in 2017, and though I have a hard time deciphering my pay stub, it does state that I had (FACT) 147,531.00 in income tax deducted in 2017. I'm guessing, but my T4 should be around (GUESS) $370? Who knows, maybe I'm under paid. If so, bring it on!!
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#44 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:22 pm

.
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#45 Post by Bede » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:23 pm

DropTanks wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:44 am
Here's the catch...there IS no retirement program at all at WJ. Nada. Zip. Zilch. The ESP is simply a pay scheme in the form of WJ stock. If you're willing and able to contribute up to 20% of your bi-weekly earnings to buy WJ stock then the company will match it. Like getting another 20% pay. Entirely optional although you'd be pretty stupid to leave that money on the table. You can't turn around and sell for one year.

As for retirement at WJ...we'll it's up to each of us to invest in our own. Simple as that.

Some folks find it all too difficult financially to do full ESP and also figure out a retirement plan so they want a real pension. Personally I love the ESP system.
If you keep ~15% ESP and invest it, you end up with a somewhat equivalent pension to AC's DB plan.

So basically, add 25% of your ESP cash to your take-home and then you will get a fair comparison between AC and WJ.
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#46 Post by jjj » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:20 pm

What Bede said.

What new commercial pilot said.

I'll take my ESP program over a pension any day of the week.

I liquidate the WS shares at a profit then I roll the cash into a managed fund - like a pension. The beauty is that when I croak - the fund isn't chopped in half.

It ain't all roses over here but it isn't all that bad either.

Cheers and happy new year!

JJJ
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#47 Post by lostaviator » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:52 am

I'll stick with ESP over pension any day.

I transfer out of wj stock every quarter and put it in my managed portfolio. I don't even look at the price anymore. Maybe that's a bad position to take, but I've personally decided my personal products out-perform our unpredictable stock that likes to go down on good news day. :? :rolleyes:

It is a hit to take-home pay but only for the first year of employment, but after that you do have access to a pool of money on a money basis. If there is a month that I want to make a purchase I have no regrets withdrawing some of my non-registered to make the purchase. At my age and desired retirement age, keeping 20% in there is more than enough.
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#48 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:10 am

I'm a guy who likes facts. Maybe there's others out there who like facts, and not just propaganda. One of the facts that I really like is the fact that my taxable gross income for the 14 day period that ended 5 January 2018 was $25,153.34. As a line pilot. For 14 days of work. Of course this was money earned under that sub-par WJPA negotiated pilot agreement so who knows what will be achieveable once that ALPA crowd negotiates that first CBA. Solidarity brothers and sisters!

Of course just in case ALPA doesn't get me that jammy seniority driven schedule with uber-high salary in their first CBA, I'm working on a second revenue stream. The following blog is about the work I was doing in the last six months while enduring that sub-par schedule (730 hours hard time) and sub-par salary ($370K).

https://blog.adafruit.com/2018/01/10/wh ... l-of-tech/
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#49 Post by Mustard » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:15 pm

Newcommercialpilot you don’t know your take home pay? It’s easy. Look at what they deposit in your account. And 370k on 740hrs? That’s a better rate than I thought wj paid.
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Re: 10 year take home pay

#50 Post by Dangerous Goods » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:41 pm

BAHAHAHAHA!!! Oh John, you're awesome!


Image

Caption that photo:

"MOM! I don't want to put up this tent!! I want to play laser tag with my friends!!"

I'm glad to see that wingsuit flying brings you so much joy!! Look at that smile!! lol

Sorry dude, I'm sure you have tons of cool wing suit videos but that picture is priceless!
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