CBC: Pilot shortage

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florch
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

Post by florch »

bobcaygeon wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:19 am

Why 702/703/704?? Your dreaming if these types of operations are making huge amounts of money. Why not 705 operators like AC or WJ re-invest in the ground roots and stop stealing pilots.

Nobody is stealing pilots. They aren't property, they are people. If a pilot makes a choice to go another employer, don't blame the pilot or the other employer. Compete for their services!
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fish4life
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

Post by fish4life »

Exactly if the 702/3/4 jobs offered good pay and lifestyle they wouldn’t have to worry about the big 705 companies because guys would stay and not jump ship ASAP
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bobcaygeon
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

Post by bobcaygeon »

fish4life wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:00 am Exactly if the 702/3/4 jobs offered good pay and lifestyle they wouldn’t have to worry about the big 705 companies because guys would stay and not jump ship ASAP
Really??? Good luck with matching AC/WJ pay and schedule. Like it or not, that's what most have their eye on that prize. You can make 6 figures on a 705 aircraft and be home every night in this country and still lose those people as DEC to Encore and the have to commute to YYC and YYZ.

"Stealing" might not be the right word but the concept is the same. Large carriers should be investing the resources vs harvesting the crop that others have put the time, money, and energy into developing. AC should be using a cadet type program to supplement their staff. It's done world wide. British Airways, Lufthansa and KLM type carriers aren't exactly "fly by night operators"
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digits_
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

Post by digits_ »

bobcaygeon wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:19 am
confusedalot wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:14 pm That is my point exactly, maybe the time has come to invest in ''training'' even at the 702/703/704 level. Easy to say I know, and many operators may have to close their doors, but remember that this shortage, or whatever some may want to call it, is not a phenomenon that has not been experienced in other countries/jurisdictions. It just caught up to canada.
Why 702/703/704?? Your dreaming if these types of operations are making huge amounts of money.
If they don't want to, that's fine, but don't cry about a pilot shortage. The pilots are there. Lots of 250 hour pilots without jobs. The training could actually save them money, if the alternative is grounding planes/cancelling flights or hiring pilots that go to the regionals after 6 months.
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gtanorth
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

Post by gtanorth »

digits_ wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:03 am
bobcaygeon wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:19 am
confusedalot wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:14 pm That is my point exactly, maybe the time has come to invest in ''training'' even at the 702/703/704 level. Easy to say I know, and many operators may have to close their doors, but remember that this shortage, or whatever some may want to call it, is not a phenomenon that has not been experienced in other countries/jurisdictions. It just caught up to canada.
Why 702/703/704?? Your dreaming if these types of operations are making huge amounts of money.
If they don't want to, that's fine, but don't cry about a pilot shortage. The pilots are there. Lots of 250 hour pilots without jobs. The training could actually save them money, if the alternative is grounding planes/cancelling flights or hiring pilots that go to the regionals after 6 months.
The largest hurdle there is Insurance. That is an often overlooked player. In general they determine the floor for experience.
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gtanorth
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

Post by gtanorth »

bobcaygeon wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:54 am
fish4life wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:00 am Exactly if the 702/3/4 jobs offered good pay and lifestyle they wouldn’t have to worry about the big 705 companies because guys would stay and not jump ship ASAP
Really??? Good luck with matching AC/WJ pay and schedule. Like it or not, that's what most have their eye on that prize. You can make 6 figures on a 705 aircraft and be home every night in this country and still lose those people as DEC to Encore and the have to commute to YYC and YYZ.

"Stealing" might not be the right word but the concept is the same. Large carriers should be investing the resources vs harvesting the crop that others have put the time, money, and energy into developing. AC should be using a cadet type program to supplement their staff. It's done world wide. British Airways, Lufthansa and KLM type carriers aren't exactly "fly by night operators"
The first group of 12 cadets from Air Georgian move to Air Canada in a couple months, those are the cadets of the now defunct AGL/AC joint program. Air Georgian also just introduced a new cadet program, for better or worse, this is the Air Canada program via the PML. Or perhaps it is more appropriate to say the PML at all express carriers is Air Canada's version of a cadet program. Air Canada does not have a problem hiring pilots, they have a surplus of applicants who are qualified so it would be very tough to convince them to set up a cadet program without it going through their express system.
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Last edited by gtanorth on Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
digits_
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

Post by digits_ »

gtanorth wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:28 am The largest hurdle there is Insurance. That is an often overlooked player. In general they determine the floor for experience.
I disagree. Getting insurance is easy. Getting the cheapest possible insurance is hard.

If you can insure one 250 hour pilot, you can insure all of them. Some of those companies in the article have hired 250 hour pilots, but they prefer 500 or 1000 hour pilots for the experience/lower training costs etc. That proves that they can get insurance for 250 hour pilots.

Hell, airlines get insurance for 250 hour co pilots, then any 703/704 company should be able to get insurance for a dash 8, navajo, metro, ... If they don't, maybe their safety record or training program sucks.

I really don't see the issue here. As long as there is a huge pool of 250 hour pilots available for the jobs, there is no pilot shortage. Train them, and 2-3 years later you'll have captains.
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

Post by fish4life »

bobcaygeon wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:54 am
fish4life wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:00 am Exactly if the 702/3/4 jobs offered good pay and lifestyle they wouldn’t have to worry about the big 705 companies because guys would stay and not jump ship ASAP
Really??? Good luck with matching AC/WJ pay and schedule. Like it or not, that's what most have their eye on that prize. You can make 6 figures on a 705 aircraft and be home every night in this country and still lose those people as DEC to Encore and the have to commute to YYC and YYZ.

"Stealing" might not be the right word but the concept is the same. Large carriers should be investing the resources vs harvesting the crop that others have put the time, money, and energy into developing. AC should be using a cadet type program to supplement their staff. It's done world wide. British Airways, Lufthansa and KLM type carriers aren't exactly "fly by night operators"
That exact attitude is the problem, work me 15 days a month for 150-175 and you will have experienced pilots stick around and probable even a bunch leave the regionals to fly there.
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Gino Under
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

Post by Gino Under »

Actually, it’s a simple matter of premiums.
If AC/WJ and others reach a point in time when they have to lower the experience floor, they’ll pay the higher premium and hiring 250 hour CPL/ME/IR would be no problem. Insurance premiums in Europe, where they hire 250 CPL/ME/IR Pilots is subject to the same insurance concerns. The insurance argument only goes so far and applies only to a certain degree.
The reality is likely to be that these carriers (AC/WJ and others) will eventually hire foreign pilots with the higher level of qualifications and experience they seek, choosing instead to overlook the option of paying increased insurance costs needed to hire Canadians.
Anyone seen that already?

Gino Under :drinkers:
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

Post by confusedalot »

The big guys in Europe put cadets into airliners and do not seem to suffer all that much.

Hey, I don't like it, but it is a road well traveled.
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

Post by av8ts »

confusedalot wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:44 pm The big guys in Europe put cadets into airliners and do not seem to suffer all that much.

Hey, I don't like it, but it is a road well traveled.
The training those cadets get is a lot different than the training a pilot in a Canadian flight school gets
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

Post by RocksAndProps »

av8ts wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:12 am
confusedalot wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:44 pm The big guys in Europe put cadets into airliners and do not seem to suffer all that much.

Hey, I don't like it, but it is a road well traveled.
The training those cadets get is a lot different than the training a pilot in a Canadian flight school gets
Well then why don't the two majors start running their own zero-to-hero programs? It's clear they have the profits to do so. WJ's record-setting load factors are going to drop like a rock when they have no more to draw from, same with AC's billion-dollar revenue.
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

Post by Mostly Harmless »

Money, money, money.

The lower time the pilot the more training they will require. Training costs money and the airlines have had it great for 30+years where the people showed up with lots of experience and training already under their belt allowing those companies to cut their training times to a very lean slice of the operating budget. That will not be the case going forward but you try telling a non-pilot MBA who sits in a boardroom with an accountant that you need to double, triple or quadruple your training budget and tell us all about the reaction you are going to get. This will not be met with progressive thinking and forward looking plans, this will be met by airline executives being dragged into the present kicking and screaming like a 4 year old who doesn't want to go to bed yet.
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

Post by digits_ »

av8ts wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:12 am The training those cadets get is a lot different than the training a pilot in a Canadian flight school gets
No it isn't.

The theory is more substantial

Then they do the classical PPL to multi ifr thing, which is pratically the same as in Canada.

Then one or more sims get added. Multicrew, typerating.


There are a couple MPL programs out there, but most of them are ran pretty similar to Canada. They selection to enter it is way harder though, but once you are in, not much difference. They are all training you to fly planes you know.
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

Post by confusedalot »

RocksAndProps wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:34 am
av8ts wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:12 am
confusedalot wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:44 pm The big guys in Europe put cadets into airliners and do not seem to suffer all that much.

Hey, I don't like it, but it is a road well traveled.
The training those cadets get is a lot different than the training a pilot in a Canadian flight school gets
Well then why don't the two majors start running their own zero-to-hero programs? It's clear they have the profits to do so. WJ's record-setting load factors are going to drop like a rock when they have no more to draw from, same with AC's billion-dollar revenue.
Perhaps they are not quite there today, but tomorrow may be another story, and they just may have to. Otherwise, what are their options?
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

Post by RocksAndProps »

confusedalot wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:45 pm
RocksAndProps wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:34 am
av8ts wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:12 am

The training those cadets get is a lot different than the training a pilot in a Canadian flight school gets
Well then why don't the two majors start running their own zero-to-hero programs? It's clear they have the profits to do so. WJ's record-setting load factors are going to drop like a rock when they have no more to draw from, same with AC's billion-dollar revenue.
Perhaps they are not quite there today, but tomorrow may be another story, and they just may have to. Otherwise, what are their options?
They're going to run out of qualified people pretty soon. I have a feeling that these styles of programs will pop up in the next 3-5 years. AFAIK GGN is running another smaller cadet class soon, but even that won't be enough to fill their seats, let alone AC.
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

Post by dpm »

Whenever an industry says there's a shortage of X, what they're really saying is that they don't want to pay high-enough salaries to attract people.

That's what happened in tech in the late 1990s, when entry-level computer programmers were earning $60–90K right out of school. Industry pressured government to hype tech training to prevent a "shortage." Now, entry-level coders work for startups for free to gain experience (and the occasional free pizza), and even the senior ones often earn less than $100K. Industry is happy.

So don't believe the BS. There'd be no shortage of instructors and entry-level airline pilots if they could earn a livable salary doing it.
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

Post by JasonE »

double post.
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Last edited by JasonE on Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

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Re: CBC: Pilot shortage

Post by dpm »

JasonE wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:41 pm Related:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/ottawa- ... -1.4481725
I trained at the Ottawa Flying Club and kept my plane there for five years. It's a great place, but the YOW airport authority and Nav Canada have been going out of their way to price out general aviation (not as bad as YYZ and YUL, but still expensive enough). That's an extra challenge for the club, beyond just an instructor shortage.
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