WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

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Rockie
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

Post by Rockie »

altiplano wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:11 pm It's where I started Rickie, evolved in a circle right back to where I started...
Not completely Altivera, you dropped the arrogant "Me Captain...you Flight Attendant" BS. Keep up the good work and we might agree on more.
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TheStig
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

Post by TheStig »

cossack wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:45 pm The British Airtours Manchester fire was made worse by the crew's turn off the runway which put the fire upwind of the fuselage. I, as a controller, will pass as much information as I think necessary to enable a decision to be made. If you want to stop on the runway, stop on the runway. Subsequent arrivals will not be using it whether you are on it or not.
Question for you regarding situations such as this one where a Mayday was declared to YZ apron, as I understand it YZ Apron is a GTAA position, do the apron controllers have the same resources for alerting Emergency services as the Tower and Ground controllers?
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

Post by culver10 »

In the right wheel well of the 737, right next to the NGS light panel, there is a fire handle that shuts off the fuel to the APU and you can also blow the fire bottle. I wonder if there were any fellow AME's doing maintenance on other nearby planes who could have pulled the handle?

Also the WJ 37 came direct from Mexico, so the fuel remaining in tanks would be VERY little. With the dihedral of the wing, the remaining fuel was not very close the the APU fire. The WJ crew did a great job and kudos to them!

I wonder what the insurance claim to Swissport will amount to?
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Rockie
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

Post by Rockie »

From my understanding the APU on the 737 automatically shuts down and blows the extinguishing agent in the event of a fire warning. That’s assuming no damage to the systems that would disable it. I’d think any mechanic knowledgeable enough to know where the external discharge handle is would also know it should have triggered automatically.

For the fuel, it’s the fumes that ignite, not the liquid.
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Donald
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

Post by Donald »

Rockie wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:02 pm From my understanding the APU on the 737 automatically shuts down and blows the extinguishing agent in the event of a fire warning. That’s assuming no damage to the systems that would disable it. I’d think any mechanic knowledgeable enough to know where the external discharge handle is would also know it should have triggered automatically.

For the fuel, it’s the fumes that ignite, not the liquid.
On Jurassic's and Classics, that'd be incorrect. Assuming NG's are the same?

The shutdown is automatic, however the bottle is only fired manually. Either with the flight deck switch, or the wheel well switch.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

Post by cossack »

TheStig wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:50 pmQuestion for you regarding situations such as this one where a Mayday was declared to YZ apron, as I understand it YZ Apron is a GTAA position, do the apron controllers have the same resources for alerting Emergency services as the Tower and Ground controllers?
The alerting is done using a regular phone using a sequence of button pushes. I don't see a reason why apron could not initiate the response but on this occasion it was done by the tower.
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Rockie
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

Post by Rockie »

Donald wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:38 pm [quote=Rockie post_id=<a href="tel:1024827">1024827</a> time=<a href="tel:1515463369">1515463369</a> user_id=5632]
From my understanding the APU on the 737 automatically shuts down and blows the extinguishing agent in the event of a fire warning. That’s assuming no damage to the systems that would disable it. I’d think any mechanic knowledgeable enough to know where the external discharge handle is would also know it should have triggered automatically.

For the fuel, it’s the fumes that ignite, not the liquid.
On Jurassic's and Classics, that'd be incorrect. Assuming NG's are the same?

The shutdown is automatic, however the bottle is only fired manually. Either with the flight deck switch, or the wheel well switch.
[/quote]

I downloaded the manual to double check, and on the Max the bottle discharges automatically after 10 seconds provided the main engines are shut down.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

Post by pelmet »

Donald wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:38 pm
Rockie wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:02 pm From my understanding the APU on the 737 automatically shuts down and blows the extinguishing agent in the event of a fire warning.
On Jurassic's and Classics, that'd be incorrect. Assuming NG's are the same?

The shutdown is automatic, however the bottle is only fired manually. Either with the flight deck switch, or the wheel well switch.
So in other words, bad(ie. completely wrong) information is being put out there. Would be nice if people only posted when they knew what they were talking about.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

Post by cossack »

pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:49 pmWould be nice if people only posted when they knew what they were talking about.
That would make it very quiet in here. :wink:
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

Post by Rockie »

pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:49 pm So in other words, bad(ie. completely wrong) information is being put out there. Would be nice if people only posted when they knew what they were talking about.
Well I'm directly referring to the Boeing Max manual which could be wrong...in somebodies universe....
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

Post by confusedalot »

Sunwing does not operate the Max as far as I know. On th NG, the fire bottle does not automatically deploy. So the APU encasement would still be on fire without human intervention. So the ramp collision would still have a fire hazard. So maybe the WJ crew made a good call.
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Rockie
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

Post by Rockie »

confusedalot wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:58 pm So maybe the WJ crew made a good call.
No question, they absolutely did. My hat's off to all of them...
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

Post by complexintentions »

I'd be interested in some statistics of how many evacuations genuinely required initiation by cabin crew due to complete incapacitation of the flight crew. The Asiana crash in SFO comes to mind as an interesting example of a case where the crash damage rendered the interphone unusable and the cabin crew did a great job initiating the evac when they couldn't establish communication with the flight deck. And I guess with a great gaping hole in the tail it was pretty obvious it was time to go?

But such situations are exceedingly rare. In the vast majority the evacuation decision should be made by the flight crew, after collecting and assessing the information necessary to make a good decision. Of course the time available may affect that ability, as well as the quality of the information. But sorry, I reject that idea that cabin crew possess the same qualifications to make decisions as flight crew. "Like it nor not", as Rockie would say. He blew a little sermon about dealing with drunks and medical cases - you can't have it both ways. I do not interfere with cabin crew and their duties, nor do I expect them to do so with mine. Of course at many places they intersect and one role assists the other, but the point of CRM is not to have flight attendants performing the duties of pilots and vice versa. My only point was that some iterations of CRM training seem to be getting a little confused about that these days. Sorry if one feels that's "needlessly holding your bars over somebody's head". That wasn't my intent, only his interpretation.

My idea of "professional" is everyone doing their jobs to the highest level and interacting with strong, accurate communication. Not taking it upon themselves to do something with consequences exceeding their pay grade unless as an absolute last resort. I know that's infuriating to some in this age of "everyone's equal, everyone's a winner".
Rockie wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:29 am Is your masculinity feeling threatened?

Like it or not men cabin crew have the authority to initiate an evacuation despite the fact you hold ultimate responsibility. Swinging your authority around isn't going to change that, so if you don't want them jumping out at the slightest provocation I suggest you pressure your respective companies to properly train them.

Be careful with the word "professional" as well because if you needlessly hold your bars over somebody's head you're off to a bad start. People in this industry generally know their jobs and the chain of command, and I've only once in my long career had to remind someone who was signing the logbook. That guy was the other pilot.
What does gender have to do with chain of command and authority? What I describe absolutely applies with a female captain and male flight attendants. Sounds to me like you're the one with the sexist assumptions.

You do seem awfully sensitive about asserting your authority. Sometimes I have a hard time believing you served in the military, but then, it was the Canadian military after all. Bigger budget for sensitivity training than combat, no doubt.

It may make you more popular with the younger, more impressionable flight attendants but it will bite you in the ass one day, you can count on it. :mrgreen:
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

Post by J31 »

pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:49 pm
Donald wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:38 pm
Rockie wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:02 pm From my understanding the APU on the 737 automatically shuts down and blows the extinguishing agent in the event of a fire warning.
On Jurassic's and Classics, that'd be incorrect. Assuming NG's are the same?

The shutdown is automatic, however the bottle is only fired manually. Either with the flight deck switch, or the wheel well switch.
So in other words, bad(ie. completely wrong) information is being put out there. Would be nice if people only posted when they knew what they were talking about.
For Boeing 737-800NG which is what the Sunwing aircraft is;

The APU automatically shuts down when the fire detection loop reaches a predetermined temperature (think Fire).

Fighting an APU fire is not automatic but can be actioned from either the flight deck or the main wheel well.

When the fire control handle is pulled in the wheel well or the fire handle on the flight deck;

-provides backup for the automatic shutdown
-deactivates the fuel solenoid
-closes the APU fuel shutoff valve
-closes the APU bleed air valve
-closes the APU air inlet valve
-trips the APU gen control relay and breaker
-arms the APU fire extinguisher bottle squib

Then you rotate the fire handle (flight deck) or toggle a switch (wheel well) to discharge an extinguishing agent into the area around the APU.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

Post by Rockie »

complexintentions wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:10 pm But sorry, I reject that idea that cabin crew possess the same qualifications to make decisions as flight crew.
I never said they do. However the fact remains they are authorized to initiate an evacuation "like it or not", and you and Altiplano clearly do not. I think we can all agree they need more training than they currently get to carry that responsibility.
complexintentions wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:10 pm You do seem awfully sensitive about asserting your authority. Sometimes I have a hard time believing you served in the military, but then, it was the Canadian military after all. Bigger budget for sensitivity training than combat, no doubt.

It may make you more popular with the younger, more impressionable flight attendants but it will bite you in the ass one day, you can count on it.
Authority is not something you should swing around unnecessarily Complex when people are doing their jobs properly. I don't know about your airline, but at mine people do their jobs properly. Authority also isn't something you should need to remind people you have. Again, I can't speak for your airline but at mine people know where the authority resides. Rarely does it need to be exerted, but when it does I do. Have you ever served in the military Complex? I'm just trying to get a sense of where your leadership opinions come from so I can place the appropriate level of credibility on it, which right now sits at about zero.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

Post by ahramin »

I'm not a flight attendant trainer, but when discussing this sort of thing with flight attendants I suggest to them that if they have

1. A serious danger to them or the pax, and
2. A disruption in normal communication with the pilots

It's time to start seriously thinking about getting out on their own.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

Post by yycflyguy »

122 posts about authority and nobody knows who ordered the evacuation?
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

Post by complexintentions »

Rockie wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:31 am
complexintentions wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:10 pm But sorry, I reject that idea that cabin crew possess the same qualifications to make decisions as flight crew.
I never said they do. However the fact remains they are authorized to initiate an evacuation "like it or not", and you and Altiplano clearly do not. I think we can all agree they need more training than they currently get to carry that responsibility.

As usual, what the f#ck are you arguing on about then? My only point was that the evacuation decision in the vast majority of situations is far better handled by the flight crew. I have no problem with someone doing what needs to be done in a dire situation, regardless of their position. Conflating that to "everyone's equal" as is the slant of CRM training in recent times is not a good trend from a safety perspective - for the very reason you just stated (my bolding).

Rockie wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:31 amAuthority is not something you should swing around unnecessarily Complex when people are doing their jobs properly. I don't know about your airline, but at mine people do their jobs properly. Authority also isn't something you should need to remind people you have. Again, I can't speak for your airline but at mine people know where the authority resides. Rarely does it need to be exerted, but when it does I do. Have you ever served in the military Complex? I'm just trying to get a sense of where your leadership opinions come from so I can place the appropriate level of credibility on it, which right now sits at about zero.

Unlike some people here who are coy about their background, nope, was never in the military, only "served" in the private sector. But with multiple family and friends currently in the CF I find your reticence to support the principles of leadership an anomaly. My own concepts of leadership come from many sources: countless excellent mentors, lifelong study of the topic, and many years of practical, observed and lived experience being charged with the responsibility of many lives and many dollars. I'm trying to think of something I could care less about, than how you credible you consider my opinions.

Nope, can't. :mrgreen:

Reminding people of reality is hardly "swinging" anything around. And when I see the attitude displayed at times, it would certainly seem a few could use a gentle reminder on who has the most to lose from a poor or incorrect decision. You are of course, free to operate your flight as you see fit.

Incidentally, from the amount of time AC spends in the news I wouldn't be trumpeting too loudly about how "at your airline people do their jobs properly".
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

Post by HiFlyChick »

"Such are the times we live in, with our ultra-feminist-worshipping culture, I suppose. All good as long as no one's feelings get hurt, right?"

"I say there needs to be some balance, just make no mistake about where the buck stops, no matter how "empowered" other crew members may be feeling on the day."
complexintentions wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:10 pm ...Sounds to me like you're the one with the sexist assumptions.
No, actually, it sounds like you are....
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

Post by Rockie »

What a laugh Complex. Coincidentally my sister had a brother who served in the military as well, but despite all her other numerous virtues and I love her dearly, she knows nothing about the military or the nuances of leadership. Just like you.

To you, leadership and authority are a hammer.
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