Swoop pilot hiring.

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NewCommercialPilot
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by NewCommercialPilot »

Well, if you decide to strike, it would be illegal and your union would be fined.

You should know that prior to certification, a deal was almost completed that would have staffed SWOOP airplanes with WJ pilots, albeit at the reduced rate, and in exchange for every SWOOP tail one widebody would be brought on strength.

I think the WJ pilots have blundered into a poor negotiation position. Sad.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Dizzy D »

Wise words from NewCommercialPilot, said no one, ever...
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by fruitloops »

Captain Hourly Rates

Step 1 - $103.57

Step 2 - $119.50

Step 3 - $131.46

So what does Step 1, 2, 3 actually mean - does Step 1 = 1 year ......or 5 years or ? lol :)
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by atphat »

NewCommercialPilot wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:55 pm Well, if you decide to strike, it would be illegal and your union would be fined.

You should know that prior to certification, a deal was almost completed that would have staffed SWOOP airplanes with WJ pilots, albeit at the reduced rate, and in exchange for every SWOOP tail one widebody would be brought on strength.

I think the WJ pilots have blundered into a poor negotiation position. Sad.
Yes. It’s all ALPAs fault. It was ALMOST done. So I guess your saying WJ management decided to throw a tantrum when certification happened?
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by .80@410 »

NewCommercialPilot wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:55 pm Well, if you decide to strike, it would be illegal and your union would be fined.

You should know that prior to certification, a deal was almost completed that would have staffed SWOOP airplanes with WJ pilots, albeit at the reduced rate, and in exchange for every SWOOP tail one widebody would be brought on strength.

I think the WJ pilots have blundered into a poor negotiation position. Sad.
The only thing sad around here is your attempts to try and spin ALPA as a negative NCP.

And JSYK it's your union too, regardless of how much you kick and scream :)))

I'm SO proud and happy ALPA is around to do everything in our power to fight against this race to the bottom.

So accepting less pay in exchange for a WB is a good deal to you ? Jeez. Can't figure out why you didn't make it onto the negotiating committee LOL .
With you at the helm we would all be working for free in exchange for signed photo ops with Mr S. :lol:


Keep your "wisdom" coming. Lately it's the only comic relief I get. :smt040
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by .80@410 »

Dizzy D wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:46 pm Wise words from NewCommercialPilot, said no one, ever...
:lol:

I just spat my coffee all over my phone .

Best ... line ... ever ...
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Shady McSly »

Settle down
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Maritimer »

NewCommercialPilot is too butthurt to accept reality.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Bede »

swimming wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:09 am
Bede wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:25 am That's way less than Sunwing, AT, etc.

Basically a captain position for FO wages. No ESP, options, etc. No opportunity to flow to WJ.

Did anyone remind these guys that everyone else is hiring these days?

What a joke.
Actually those numbers and the pilot requirements are straight out of the Sunwing contract. There is a link to the contract in the Sunwing forum. The question is will Swoop continue past the third step and follow the rest of Sunwing’s steps?
These rates may look similar to Sunwing's, but up on arrival, any pilot is going to find out that they are far behind a Sunwing pilot.

Unfortunately, this is how things are spun so often around here. I really don't like disparging my own wages as I am largely satisfied with them, but you hear this sort of reasoning a lot around here. "Look, our hourly rates are almost the same as AC". However, we pay for our own benefits, no YOS, pension, etc. So the truth is that, on paper, we may make similar money, but at the end of the day, the "cash in jeans" rate is way, way less.

Pilots have never been in a better position to end this race to the bottom.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by NewCommercialPilot »

If people don't want to work at Swoop, don't go to work at Swoop. This is basic economics and the right of citizens of a free society. WJ came along 21 years ago and brought sustainable competition to the airline market in Canada which provided consumers with choice, and in many, many cases brought lower fares to markets in which there was only one provider.

Swoop is not going to impede any one's progress at WJ. WJ can't compete against lower cost ULCC's. We can stand around and hope for the best and then watch as a JetsGo appears overnight and suddenly has 30 airplanes. Or you can bring the fight to them and establish a true ULCC where every single line item is the lowest of its class. Those working there have to go in knowing the full facts of the case.

I wish I could get a leave of absence to help them out. This is a rational response to the looming and present threat of seepage of customers to Bellingham and Buffalo etc and native ULCCs here in Canada.

Good luck to the Swoopsters. The next coffee to you folks is on me.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by fish4life »

NewCommercialPilot wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 am If people don't want to work at Swoop, don't go to work at Swoop. This is basic economics and the right of citizens of a free society. WJ came along 21 years ago and brought sustainable competition to the airline market in Canada which provided consumers with choice, and in many, many cases brought lower fares to markets in which there was only one provider.

Swoop is not going to impede any one's progress at WJ. WJ can't compete against lower cost ULCC's. We can stand around and hope for the best and then watch as a JetsGo appears overnight and suddenly has 30 airplanes. Or you can bring the fight to them and establish a true ULCC where every single line item is the lowest of its class. Those working there have to go in knowing the full facts of the case.

I wish I could get a leave of absence to help them out. This is a rational response to the looming and present threat of seepage of customers to Bellingham and Buffalo etc and native ULCCs here in Canada.

Good luck to the Swoopsters. The next coffee to you folks is on me.
Go check out Allegiants pay and get back to me... believe it or not a ULCC can pay well in fact better than even mainline WJ
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Airbrake »

NewCommercialPilot wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 am If people don't want to work at Swoop, don't go to work at Swoop. This is basic economics and the right of citizens of a free society. WJ came along 21 years ago and brought sustainable competition to the airline market in Canada which provided consumers with choice, and in many, many cases brought lower fares to markets in which there was only one provider.

Swoop is not going to impede any one's progress at WJ. WJ can't compete against lower cost ULCC's. We can stand around and hope for the best and then watch as a JetsGo appears overnight and suddenly has 30 airplanes. Or you can bring the fight to them and establish a true ULCC where every single line item is the lowest of its class. Those working there have to go in knowing the full facts of the case.

I wish I could get a leave of absence to help them out. This is a rational response to the looming and present threat of seepage of customers to Bellingham and Buffalo etc and native ULCCs here in Canada.

Good luck to the Swoopsters. The next coffee to you folks is on me.

I would recommend that you go on the Hub to see what other groups are getting for pay. It seems there that some groups are not taking pay adjustments like the FA’s and Pilots. The OCC is being contracted out from WestJet to Swoop, the Mantenance is the same.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by rudder »

Airbrake wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:46 am


I would recommend that you go on the Hub to see what other groups are getting for pay. It seems there that some groups are not taking pay adjustments like the FA’s and Pilots. The OCC is being contracted out from WestJet to Swoop, the Mantenance is the same.
Same at AC. Rouge is a business model built on the backs of pilots and flight attendants. Lower pay and thin to nonexistent work rules. Everyone else is left unscathed.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by NewCommercialPilot »

rudder wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:06 am
Airbrake wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:46 am


I would recommend that you go on the Hub to see what other groups are getting for pay. It seems there that some groups are not taking pay adjustments like the FA’s and Pilots. The OCC is being contracted out from WestJet to Swoop, the Mantenance is the same.
Same at AC. Rouge is a business model built on the backs of pilots and flight attendants. Lower pay and thin to nonexistent work rules. Everyone else is left unscathed.
Rouge has been incedibly successful for Air Canada and is one of the reasons for the impressive performance of the stock price in the last two years. Apparently the Rouge pilots are among the happiest of the pilots in the AC world, with paychecks that support that view. My own observations on the YYZ inter-terminal train would support the view that Rouge pilots, generally, appear happier, if facial expressions are any indicator.

It's too bad you didn't go to AC when you had the chance Rudder or you'd be making those wages too!
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by rudder »

NewCommercialPilot wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:12 am
rudder wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:06 am
Airbrake wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:46 am


I would recommend that you go on the Hub to see what other groups are getting for pay. It seems there that some groups are not taking pay adjustments like the FA’s and Pilots. The OCC is being contracted out from WestJet to Swoop, the Mantenance is the same.
Same at AC. Rouge is a business model built on the backs of pilots and flight attendants. Lower pay and thin to nonexistent work rules. Everyone else is left unscathed.
Rouge has been incedibly successful for Air Canada and is one of the reasons for the impressive performance of the stock price in the last two years. Apparently the Rouge pilots are among the happiest of the pilots in the AC world, with paychecks that support that view. My own observations on the YYZ inter-terminal train would support the view that Rouge pilots, generally, appear happier, if facial expressions are any indicator.

It's too bad you didn't go to AC when you had the chance Rudder or you'd be making those wages too!
I cannot help but think that your view is not held by the majority of WJ pilots who recently voted in favour of unionization, a say in WAWCON, and the right to bargain in a well defined legal and procedural framework. If WJ wants an AC/Rouge arrangement, then that should be a proposal at the bargaining table.

I hope that the SWOOP initiative is just a shot across the bow and that saner minds will prevail. The concept of subcontracting a portion of the 737 flying is as abhorrent as proposing to subcontract the 787 flying. Alienating the WJ pilots is not a formula for continued corporate success.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Greenbastard »

NCP please, please do us all a favour and go.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Air.Field »

so should everyone blacklist Rouge pilots? They seem to be taking over more and more mainline flights for little in return at AC mainline and at cheaper rate and is in part reason why Swoop has come to be. How about blacklist Sky regional pilots, or Flair, or Georgian, Encore or Jazz? It's funny everyone screams blacklist blacklist, when those very pilots and unions are guilty of the race to the bottom and locking in (at AC family) 10 yr contracts to the detriment of their members and piloting profession in Canada. How about Westjet when it first started? Flying not for money but stock. Albeit it worked out for those pilots very well, but at the time... *coughwhorecough*

As we know, end of the day, companies can hire whom ever they want. It would be beneficial for AC to take as many from Swoop to incur training and schedule costs at Swoop.

Swoop will get the pilots they need from those pfo'd from WS and AC, those from 703,704, those who don't give a flying F about going to AC or WS, or those looking to get time to go overseas. But yet, as tradition in Canada, we backstab eachother for the greater bad, rather than collectively working together. This hole was dug by us, and it's up to us to dig out of it, and blacklisting isn't the way. Blacklisting pilots just brings more shame and humility to all of us, and like I mentioned above, end of the day it has no real bearing on hiring practices. The fact there's companies growing and a pilot shortage at the same time is something to capitalize on, and I'm afraid we'll all miss this opportunity.

-edited for clarity.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by mbav8r »

Air.Field wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:57 am so should everyone blacklist Rouge pilots? They seem to be taking over more and more mainline flights for little in return at AC mainline and is in part reason why Swoop has come to be. It's funny everyone screams blacklist blacklist, when those very pilots and unions are guilty of the race to the bottom and locking in (at AC family) 10 yr contracts to the detriment of their members and piloting profession in Canada.

As we know, end of the day, companies can hire whom ever they want. It would be beneficial for AC to take as many from Swoop to incur training and schedule costs at Swoop.

Swoop will get the pilots they need from those pfo'd from WS and AC, those from 703,704, those who don't give a flying F about going to AC or WS, or those looking to get time to go overseas. But yet, as tradition in Canada, we backstab eachother for the greater bad, rather than collectively working together. This hole was dug by us, and it's up to us to dig out of it, and blacklisting isn't the way. Blacklisting pilots just brings more shame and humility to all of us.
Rouge was forced on AC pilots by final arbitration and they are all AC pilots on the same list, also the Rouge initial contract was a carbon copy of WJ! Not even close to the same thing a swoop!
Swoop is to WJ, what Flair was to KFC, where are they now?
So what is the answer, if not blacklisting? Should we sit them down and buy them coffee as ncp is offering, tell them about how their choices are affecting others and hope they just didn’t know that. Maybe they’ll quit when they find out and rainbows will appears and puppies will fall from the sky and the CEOs will offer to work for pilot wages plus 5% for their troubles and....
People are selfish and will do what’s best for them, maybe if their are consequences to their actions, it won’t be what’s best for them. If they can live with the consequences, they will go to swoop, simple really!
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Air.Field »

mbav8r wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:25 am
Rouge was forced on AC pilots by final arbitration and they are all AC pilots on the same list, also the Rouge initial contract was a carbon copy of WJ! Not even close to the same thing a swoop!
Swoop is to WJ, what Flair was to KFC, where are they now?
So what is the answer, if not blacklisting? Should we sit them down and buy them coffee as ncp is offering, tell them about how their choices are affecting others and hope they just didn’t know that. Maybe they’ll quit when they find out and rainbows will appears and puppies will fall from the sky and the CEOs will offer to work for pilot wages plus 5% for their troubles and....
People are selfish and will do what’s best for them, maybe if their are consequences to their actions, it won’t be what’s best for them. If they can live with the consequences, they will go to swoop, simple really!
AC pilots mutally agreed to the expansion for little in return. Swoop pay scale looks comparable to Sunwing. Better starting FO than AC. I'm not saying buy coffee to Swoop pilots, again, it's a useless attempt IMO at putting a bandaid on after the flood gates have been open for years. The pilots who do go there, aren't going to care about some silly little list, nor are the HR depts. It will get us no where thinking a list is a be all solution. It's time to start raising the bar, something for all the MECs out there to game plan on, as no list will do that.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Checklist »

NewCommercialPilot wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 am If people don't want to work at Swoop, don't go to work at Swoop. This is basic economics and the right of citizens of a free society. WJ came along 21 years ago and brought sustainable competition to the airline market in Canada which provided consumers with choice, and in many, many cases brought lower fares to markets in which there was only one provider.

Swoop is not going to impede any one's progress at WJ. WJ can't compete against lower cost ULCC's. We can stand around and hope for the best and then watch as a JetsGo appears overnight and suddenly has 30 airplanes. Or you can bring the fight to them and establish a true ULCC where every single line item is the lowest of its class. Those working there have to go in knowing the full facts of the case.

I wish I could get a leave of absence to help them out. This is a rational response to the looming and present threat of seepage of customers to Bellingham and Buffalo etc and native ULCCs here in Canada.

Good luck to the Swoopsters. The next coffee to you folks is on me.

Won’t impede progression at WJ? Where do you think they’re getting the tails to start this Frankenstein’s experiment? 10 tails = 80-100 pilots where is the bottom of the list going to go?

Seriously. What could management do that you wouldn’t gush over and call it good business sense?

Rouge is only rouge because AC was in the red. Last time I checked WJ was on its 51st profitable quarter with record load factors.

I would also like to point out that AC is doing extremely well and this was after a reactionary move. If this so called “threat” that we keep getting told about actually some how, miraculously, gets to 30 planes, okay let’s talk.

Until then, a 737 pilot flying a WJ owned plane, should be paid at WJ rates. It’s not that much to ask.
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