Swoop pilot hiring.

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lostaviator
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by lostaviator »

TheStig wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:15 pm
lostaviator wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:55 am
A bad weather day means our guests wait in line for HOURS to make new plans because we don't have enough airport staff yet we just hired FOUR new VP's?

End of non-organized rambling thoughts. But you get the point.
Ya, don't get carried away, I mean, I've only ever heard good things about the way Qatar and Etihad treat their employees.

Scott Groh joined WestJet, January 3, in the role of Vice-President, Crew Resources. Scott most recently worked for Qatar Airways as Senior Vice-President, Crew Resources, Flight Operations. Scott also held the position of Vice-President, Crew Resources for Etihad Airways for nine years and has more than 30 years of experience in crew planning, and crew scheduling operations.

http://westjet2.mediaroom.com

There is a job ad posted to replace pilots who respond with remarks about how they'd hate to do anything to hurt the share price. Westjet's pilots and FA's will get what they deserve, your executives have shown their hand. All the best, and I mean that sincerely, even you Brooks.
Fingers crossed he at least got a one page briefing on Canada labour law. :roll:
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nottellin
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by nottellin »

Air.Field wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:17 pm
infiniteregulus wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:02 am Unfortunately many employed there have vested interest in the company's performance, a la stocks. Not sure if kiboshing performance metrics in the interest of a political statement will be a thing. Doubt many Westjetters feel like "owners" anymore :roll: . Trust in business is a curiously fickle and interesting concept and business is much like war in that it can be ruthless with sacrifices and aims to achieve an ultimate supreme goal - money. Even the most philanthropic manager or CEO will not put an employee above a company unless it will directly feed into the corporate success. Companies are NOT in business to provide a workplace for people. They are in business to make money and that's the bottom line. Finding the right balance between corporate growth and employee relations, all the while maintaining a level of ethical practice however, is the key to any successful CEO. But trust me in saying that NEVER should the words of a corporation be taken in faith without questioning the underlying motive. As Sun Tzu is quoted from the Art of War, "All war is deception".
So, once again it's all about yourself(selves) because any action you take will affect your bottom line $$. So rather than say not grooming or whatever small actions, you choose to have a list to punish other pilots who may have good reason to go to Swoop, rather than use leverage and take a small hit to yourselves to further yours and everyones interest. I maybe wrong, but you sure make it sound like that.
I thought the same thing when I read that. Not saying I necessarily agree with welcoming swoop pilots with open arms. But for the people on the inside already you need to do something as well and if it means taking a hit on your share prices then so be it. Can't have your cake and eat it to.
Not that I have any idea what the right thing to do is but the gloves need to come off.
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Victory
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Victory »

TheStig wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:15 pm I've only ever heard good things about the way Qatar and Etihad treat their employees.
lol there's a reason for that.
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Realitychex
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Realitychex »

From Raymond James’ latest report, The Scoop on Swoop.

Swoop is going to cause a lot of changes in the industry over the next 18 months. It’s going to be an interesting ride.

Here lies exposed the myth of the “free aircraft,” which we view as a commonly misunderstood component of the ULCC model. The secret to Allegiant’s low costs, for example, had often been linked to its old fleet, which the airline could afford to park for extended periods of time due to the low‐upfront acquisition cost of the planes. This, in our view, was an oversimplification of the company’s ULCC formula that ignored other efficiencies, cost savings, and flexibility the airline had built into its operations. It also proved to be unsustainable as poor reliability and very high maintenance costs eventually forced the company to effect a large modernization program which is currently underway as its replaces its aged MD80 aircraft with newer Airbus 320s.

Rouge subscribes to a similar theory that its fully‐depreciated aircraft are effectively “free.” However, with its fleet of 20 A319s boasting an average age of ~20 years, we see this as an equally misplaced and unsustainable formula, representing yet another key strategic difference between it and Swoop.

To be clear, the fleet analysis above is not meant to provide an estimate of Rouge’s costs, or to suggest that its CASM is near the 12.9¢ that our model has calculated (as outlined earlier, we think it is hard to determine exactly what Rouge’s costs are because it is effectively an extension of Air Canada). Rather we are simply showing what we think Swoop’s unit costs would be if it used an old fleet of A319s that resembled Rouge instead of the newer 737‐800s that it has selected.

The point is that these planes are, in our view, too small and too old—even after accounting for zero ownership costs—to drive CASM down to the rock bottom levels needed to make money at rock bottom fares. They are also not dense enough to be deployed effectively on a ULCC platform. The fact that all of the US peers in this market segment rely much more heavily on larger, newer, more‐densely configured narrow‐body aircraft for the majority of their capacity helps to substantiate this claim (see Exhibit 27*).

We draw a similar conclusion about Flair and its fleet of 737‐400s (an aircraft that no other ULCC has embraced). These planes are equally too old (average age ~25 years) and not dense enough (156 seats) to be an effective tool for Swoop. According to our model, when we toggle the same fleet assumptions for this type of plane, Swoop’s CASM with the 737‐800s increases >10% from 10.0¢ to 11.2¢ (refer back to Exhibit 26).

While it is beyond the scope of this report to assess the financial performance of Rouge/Flair with their respective narrow‐body aircraft, our model does a very compelling job of telling us that Swoop would likely be much less profitable (if not very unprofitable) if WestJet had selected either the A319 or 737‐400 frames, even with zero ownership costs.
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Transonic
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Transonic »

Thanks Realitychex.

Question for you. How does the posted pay rates compare to the figures you modelled?

Thanks!

For reference.

Capt
Step 1 - $103.57
Step 2 - $119.50
Step 3 - $131.46

FO
Step 1 - $55.83
Step 2 - $69.62
Step 3 - $76.58
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dumbbell daddy
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by dumbbell daddy »

Could those 87's on order actually be swapped over to Swoop? Low cost transatlantic is just scary/gross. Look at WOW out of KEF. It's like flying Ryanair over the Atlantic.
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infiniteregulus
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by infiniteregulus »

Air.Field wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:17 pm
infiniteregulus wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:02 am Unfortunately many employed there have vested interest in the company's performance, a la stocks. Not sure if kiboshing performance metrics in the interest of a political statement will be a thing. Doubt many Westjetters feel like "owners" anymore :roll: . Trust in business is a curiously fickle and interesting concept and business is much like war in that it can be ruthless with sacrifices and aims to achieve an ultimate supreme goal - money. Even the most philanthropic manager or CEO will not put an employee above a company unless it will directly feed into the corporate success. Companies are NOT in business to provide a workplace for people. They are in business to make money and that's the bottom line. Finding the right balance between corporate growth and employee relations, all the while maintaining a level of ethical practice however, is the key to any successful CEO. But trust me in saying that NEVER should the words of a corporation be taken in faith without questioning the underlying motive. As Sun Tzu is quoted from the Art of War, "All war is deception".
So, once again it's all about yourself(selves) because any action you take will affect your bottom line $$. So rather than say not grooming or whatever small actions, you choose to have a list to punish other pilots who may have good reason to go to Swoop, rather than use leverage and take a small hit to yourselves to further yours and everyones interest. I maybe wrong, but you sure make it sound like that.
I don't work for WestJet or have anything to do with ALPA. I'm only pondering that a big chunk of their employees are going to look at their stock prices as a motive for inaction.
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digits_
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by digits_ »

infiniteregulus wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:48 pm
Air.Field wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:17 pm
infiniteregulus wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:02 am Unfortunately many employed there have vested interest in the company's performance, a la stocks. Not sure if kiboshing performance metrics in the interest of a political statement will be a thing. Doubt many Westjetters feel like "owners" anymore :roll: . Trust in business is a curiously fickle and interesting concept and business is much like war in that it can be ruthless with sacrifices and aims to achieve an ultimate supreme goal - money. Even the most philanthropic manager or CEO will not put an employee above a company unless it will directly feed into the corporate success. Companies are NOT in business to provide a workplace for people. They are in business to make money and that's the bottom line. Finding the right balance between corporate growth and employee relations, all the while maintaining a level of ethical practice however, is the key to any successful CEO. But trust me in saying that NEVER should the words of a corporation be taken in faith without questioning the underlying motive. As Sun Tzu is quoted from the Art of War, "All war is deception".
So, once again it's all about yourself(selves) because any action you take will affect your bottom line $$. So rather than say not grooming or whatever small actions, you choose to have a list to punish other pilots who may have good reason to go to Swoop, rather than use leverage and take a small hit to yourselves to further yours and everyones interest. I maybe wrong, but you sure make it sound like that.
I don't work for WestJet or have anything to do with ALPA. I'm only pondering that a big chunk of their employees are going to look at their stock prices as a motive for inaction.
So sell the stock, do your actions and buy it back much cheaper :D
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Mach1 »

Diadem wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:43 am This is pretty much where I'm in my career: too much time to want to go into the right seat at Encore, and not enough to realistically have a shot at WestJet or AC. I could stay in my current position for several more years getting marginal wage increases, I could go to Encore and make less than at Swoop, or I could go to Swoop, get upgraded in a couple of years, and be making 50% more than I'm making now. It's not as much as I would make at WestJet, but I might never get called by WestJet, and it's far more than I'll ever make in my current position. I get that pilots need to stand together if we want wages to increase across the board, but no one has ever stood up for me in this industry; no WestJet pilot has ever lobbied one of my employers to give raises, but now I'm supposed to help fight to protect their scope? It's up to me to get the most out of my career, and no one else is ever going to put my interests first.
Of course, if there's no retirement plan, then that's a deal-breaker.
Here's how that reads, just so you know:

Who cares that no one ever stood up for the wages and working conditions of the pilots who are currently at any airline! Who cares that it now takes 2 years to get an airline job instead of the 10 or more it used to take as little as 5 years ago! Who cares that all the people who are currently at airlines had to work for less than minimum wage in shit jobs, in shit conditions, sometimes for years before even touching an airplane!! ME, God Damnit! ME! It's all about ME and you all owe ME! Sure I'll get to any airline 5 times faster than you did, at a younger age and I've always worked on better equipment with better wages than you airline pilots ever did but, ME! ME! ME! ME! Here's a news flash for everyone singing this song, your wages and working conditions ARE better than they were 10 years ago. YOU'RE WELCOME. IF you don't screw us over now, and yes it means you might have to suffer a little longer (OH GOD, I know ONE or TWO whole years is the most time anyone anywhere has ever had to put up with such horrors), things will continue to get better. If you really need to see sacrifice, I want you to phone all the flight school and charter companies under you and demand that they pay more.... lead by example.
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indieadventurer
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by indieadventurer »

infiniteregulus wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:48 pmI'm only pondering that a big chunk of their employees are going to look at their stock prices as a motive for inaction.
Most folks I fly with and know don't hold onto their stock any longer than they are required and seem to sell every quarter if not monthly. In my opinion that's a fringe possibility and I don't think us flying the Swoop aircraft at our current wages and conditions vs what's being posted will have any significant impact on the stock price, if any.
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altiplano
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by altiplano »

Realitychex wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:42 pm From Raymond James’ latest report, The Scoop on Swoop.

Swoop is going to cause a lot of changes in the industry over the next 18 months. It’s going to be an interesting ride.

Here lies exposed the myth of the “free aircraft,” which we view as a commonly misunderstood component of the ULCC model. The secret to Allegiant’s low costs, for example, had often been linked to its old fleet, which the airline could afford to park for extended periods of time due to the low‐upfront acquisition cost of the planes. This, in our view, was an oversimplification of the company’s ULCC formula that ignored other efficiencies, cost savings, and flexibility the airline had built into its operations. It also proved to be unsustainable as poor reliability and very high maintenance costs eventually forced the company to effect a large modernization program which is currently underway as its replaces its aged MD80 aircraft with newer Airbus 320s.

Rouge subscribes to a similar theory that its fully‐depreciated aircraft are effectively “free.” However, with its fleet of 20 A319s boasting an average age of ~20 years, we see this as an equally misplaced and unsustainable formula, representing yet another key strategic difference between it and Swoop.

To be clear, the fleet analysis above is not meant to provide an estimate of Rouge’s costs, or to suggest that its CASM is near the 12.9¢ that our model has calculated (as outlined earlier, we think it is hard to determine exactly what Rouge’s costs are because it is effectively an extension of Air Canada). Rather we are simply showing what we think Swoop’s unit costs would be if it used an old fleet of A319s that resembled Rouge instead of the newer 737‐800s that it has selected.

The point is that these planes are, in our view, too small and too old—even after accounting for zero ownership costs—to drive CASM down to the rock bottom levels needed to make money at rock bottom fares. They are also not dense enough to be deployed effectively on a ULCC platform. The fact that all of the US peers in this market segment rely much more heavily on larger, newer, more‐densely configured narrow‐body aircraft for the majority of their capacity helps to substantiate this claim (see Exhibit 27*).

We draw a similar conclusion about Flair and its fleet of 737‐400s (an aircraft that no other ULCC has embraced). These planes are equally too old (average age ~25 years) and not dense enough (156 seats) to be an effective tool for Swoop. According to our model, when we toggle the same fleet assumptions for this type of plane, Swoop’s CASM with the 737‐800s increases >10% from 10.0¢ to 11.2¢ (refer back to Exhibit 26).

While it is beyond the scope of this report to assess the financial performance of Rouge/Flair with their respective narrow‐body aircraft, our model does a very compelling job of telling us that Swoop would likely be much less profitable (if not very unprofitable) if WestJet had selected either the A319 or 737‐400 frames, even with zero ownership costs.
Raymond James has to be the LEAST credible analysis on anything WestJet/Air Canada...
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by HansDietrich »

So let me ask this question:

- Why wouldn't a DH8 F/O making 40K a year, with almost zero chance of making it to big red stick around and not take a 40K a year job flying a 737NG? At least he gets a type rating and can go overseas. I'm not saying it's right, BUT WHAT ARE THESE REGIONAL AIRLINES DOING TO PREVENT THAT? NOTHING!!!
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by digits_ »

Mach1 wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:58 pm
Diadem wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:43 am This is pretty much where I'm in my career: too much time to want to go into the right seat at Encore, and not enough to realistically have a shot at WestJet or AC. I could stay in my current position for several more years getting marginal wage increases, I could go to Encore and make less than at Swoop, or I could go to Swoop, get upgraded in a couple of years, and be making 50% more than I'm making now. It's not as much as I would make at WestJet, but I might never get called by WestJet, and it's far more than I'll ever make in my current position. I get that pilots need to stand together if we want wages to increase across the board, but no one has ever stood up for me in this industry; no WestJet pilot has ever lobbied one of my employers to give raises, but now I'm supposed to help fight to protect their scope? It's up to me to get the most out of my career, and no one else is ever going to put my interests first.
Of course, if there's no retirement plan, then that's a deal-breaker.
Here's how that reads, just so you know:

Who cares that no one ever stood up for the wages and working conditions of the pilots who are currently at any airline! Who cares that it now takes 2 years to get an airline job instead of the 10 or more it used to take as little as 5 years ago! Who cares that all the people who are currently at airlines had to work for less than minimum wage in shit jobs, in shit conditions, sometimes for years before even touching an airplane!! ME, God Damnit! ME! It's all about ME and you all owe ME! Sure I'll get to any airline 5 times faster than you did, at a younger age and I've always worked on better equipment with better wages than you airline pilots ever did but, ME! ME! ME! ME! Here's a news flash for everyone singing this song, your wages and working conditions ARE better than they were 10 years ago. YOU'RE WELCOME. IF you don't screw us over now, and yes it means you might have to suffer a little longer (OH GOD, I know ONE or TWO whole years is the most time anyone anywhere has ever had to put up with such horrors), things will continue to get better. If you really need to see sacrifice, I want you to phone all the flight school and charter companies under you and demand that they pay more.... lead by example.

Here's how that reads, just so you know:

It took me 15 years to make it into the airlines, so those youngsters better be bloody happy they can make it there in 2 years. They shouldn't even try to advance their careers without making absolutely sure that my senior salary will not be affected in any way. I spent 25 years of flying to get where I am now and was promised lots of gold at the end of the rainbow. Now it's time to cash in, so don't you take that away from ME. I don't care about you, it is a nice side effect that your wages might have gone up a little bit while I am raking in the big bucks now, but MY family finally needs a pay off. So don't let the big evil CEO take MY salary away, I mean, sorry, "Stand united and don't screw over your fellow pilots (ME)
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by rudder »

Raymond James has surmised that FLAIR is simply JetsGo with 737-400’s?

It does not take an MBA to figure that out. And it will meet the same ultimate fate.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by vrefplus5 »

We may all know by tomorrow, Rudder.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Mach1 »

digits

Go to work for Swoop. Don't go to work for Swoop. I don't really care. You have to make your choices just like I have to make mine. So, don't whine when I back the idea of blacklisting you from all ALPA airlines everywhere for lowering the standards we worked to raise. You can't have it both ways and ask those in front of you to sacrifice for you when you are not sacrificing for them.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by HansDietrich »

Mach1 wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:15 pm digits

Go to work for Swoop. Don't go to work for Swoop. I don't really care. You have to make your choices just like I have to make mine. So, don't whine when I back the idea of blacklisting you from all ALPA airlines everywhere for lowering the standards we worked to raise. You can't have it both ways and ask those in front of you to sacrifice for you when you are not sacrificing for them.
Here's an idea sir. Why don't you hire "digits"? Give him a job at AC or wherever you work that's it's so great, and he won't have to "lower the bar".
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Victory »

Mach1 wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:15 pm digits

Go to work for Swoop. Don't go to work for Swoop. I don't really care. You have to make your choices just like I have to make mine. So, don't whine when I back the idea of blacklisting you from all ALPA airlines everywhere for lowering the standards we worked to raise. You can't have it both ways and ask those in front of you to sacrifice for you when you are not sacrificing for them.
Did you blacklist Sunwing? Isn't it the same pay? Or did the blacklist idea only come up when your job was directly threatened? You only cared when it was your bosses offering that pay.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by digits_ »

Mach1 wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:15 pm we worked to raise
What exactly did you do to raise the standards?
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Diadem »

Mach1 wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:58 pm Here's how that reads, just so you know:

Who cares that no one ever stood up for the wages and working conditions of the pilots who are currently at any airline! Who cares that it now takes 2 years to get an airline job instead of the 10 or more it used to take as little as 5 years ago! Who cares that all the people who are currently at airlines had to work for less than minimum wage in shit jobs, in shit conditions, sometimes for years before even touching an airplane!! ME, God Damnit! ME! It's all about ME and you all owe ME! Sure I'll get to any airline 5 times faster than you did, at a younger age and I've always worked on better equipment with better wages than you airline pilots ever did but, ME! ME! ME! ME! Here's a news flash for everyone singing this song, your wages and working conditions ARE better than they were 10 years ago. YOU'RE WELCOME. IF you don't screw us over now, and yes it means you might have to suffer a little longer (OH GOD, I know ONE or TWO whole years is the most time anyone anywhere has ever had to put up with such horrors), things will continue to get better. If you really need to see sacrifice, I want you to phone all the flight school and charter companies under you and demand that they pay more.... lead by example.
Do you want to know why I have that attitude? Because I've fought for my fellow pilots before, and always been thrown under the bus. When my employer short-changed everyone by a few hundred dollars on a pay cheque, I pushed for us to get that money, and when there was no other recourse I told everyone we should file a complaint with the labour board. Everyone agreed, but I was the only one who did it, because no one else wanted to risk angering management and throwing away their chance at getting a good reference. I got everyone paid out by filing the complaint, but I effectively ended my career with that company, and I could never use them as a reference. At another company, the WAWCON was so bad and the pressure to fly in all conditions was so high that the discussion of unionizing came up. I told everyone they should document any times they were told by the CP to fly when they didn't feel safe, and I suggested that we look more proactively at unionizing if we thought that was the best way to resolve the issues within the company. Of course, as soon as I wanted to take tangible action, no one wanted to stick their necks out anymore, and no one besides me documented anything. Someone told the CP that I had so much as mentioned the word "union", and any chance I had of promotion or a raise ended right there; everyone else kept their heads down, and they're all in fantastic positions now, while I ended up taking a side-step just to get out of there. Every time I pushed back against instructions that may have caused us to violate the CARs if we had obeyed, I was given a crappier schedule. Every time I took the brunt for no one flying in atrocious weather, the vacation request I had submitted earlier in the week was denied. My career is three or four years behind where it could have been, because I keep standing up for my coworkers, and they keep throwing me under the bus to protect their own careers. So yeah, it's selfish, and I'm a little bitter and jaded, but I'm tired of making sacrifices for the benefit of others, while I get nothing for it. I keep hearing that if I refuse to accept jobs with these kinds of companies, we'll all be better off, but the guys who stayed in the CPs' good graces are flying jets for 50% more than I'm making. It's hardly fair for a WestJet pilot who makes twice what I do to expect me to make sacrifices to protect his or her earnings, and no, I don't think if I hold out a couple of years I'll be any better off, because I'll be exactly where I am right now. Despite your assertion, the job that I have now is essentially the same as it was ten years ago, and WestJet's WAWCON has no effect on that whatsoever, but there's one thing that will improve WAWCON at this level: losing a bunch of pilots. If I leave, management will see they have to do more to retain their employees, and the next generation will be better off, but if I stay there's no motivation to change anything. I've got a mortgage to pay, mouths to feed, and school supplies to provide, so I can't afford to be sanctimonious anymore; I'm going to take the highest-paying job I can find, and if the best I can do is Swoop, then that's fine by me.
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