Swoop pilot hiring.

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Donald
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Donald » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:45 pm

Mach1 wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:15 pm
So, don't whine when I back the idea of blacklisting you from all ALPA airlines everywhere for lowering the standards we worked to raise. You can't have it both ways
Where was the blacklist for:

Jetsgo

Enerjet

Sunwing

Flair

Encore

Any other airline that has "lowered the bar".

I get that WJ pilots are upset by Swoop, but this blacklist nonsense has to stop.

Unless you are willing to start building a pilot compensation fund for anyone who ends up unemployed and not hired at WJ or AC.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Impact » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:47 pm

Make no mistake about it, the major driver behind better WAWCON will be the present shortage of pilots (ie labour market economy), not the unions or their cheerleaders.

Just an observation, and only my opinion of course, but some of the least altruistic people I've ever met in my life have been staunch unionists. They demand unwaivering unity for their cause, yet when you peel back a few layers of BS you'll soon find that their true motivation is purely centered on their own self interests.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by BE20 Driver » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:48 pm

How many of you "not a dollar less per hour" guys have emailed ALPA to suggest Status Pay? If you're so convinced that everyone be paid equally, put your money where your mouth is. Maybe ALPA will knock it out of the park with the negotiations and you'll end up with a huge raise that can be distributed down to the Swoop guys.

I think Diadem, Victory, digits, Hans et al. make a good point. The idea of banning a person who may really need this job and can't get an AC/WS mainline job is beyond arrogant and self centred.

The argument of don't do this because it'll affect my WAWCON and eventually you'll be where I am doesn't hold water with me. Eventually doesn't pay tomorrow's bills.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by CaptainHaddock » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:07 pm

Hi Diadem,

I feel your pain, I started flight lessons in 1993 and didn't get hired at a 'good' operator (WestJet) until 2011, now I am a 7 year FO looking at the air brakes coming on for upgrades.
Why not try ANY of the other jet operators first (sunwing, cargo jet, flair, etc), then try Swoop as your last choice. If you listen to the most recent WestJet Analyst call the openly say that if it's successful they will expand it, if it isn't they just move the tails back into WestJet and close it up. So you may go there and do 20 years as 737 captain, or if they shutter it in 18 months you are unemployed and blacklisted. The Swoop equation will most likely be settled within the next 2-3 months anyway for better or worse.

Cheers,
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by True North » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:08 pm

Impact wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:47 pm
Make no mistake about it, the major driver behind better WAWCON will be the present shortage of pilots (ie labour market economy), not the unions or their cheerleaders.

Just an observation, and only my opinion of course, but some of the least altruistic people I've ever met in my life have been staunch unionists. They demand unwaivering unity for their cause, yet when you peel back a few layers of BS you'll soon find that their true motivation is purely centered on their own self interests.
Spot on impact.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by '97 Tercel » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:31 pm

+1

What did WJ pay captains when they started up operations in the 90's?
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Donald
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Donald » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:22 pm

Swoop will succeed, and its not dependant on the pilots.

They will succeed because to book a ticket on them, one will go to the WJ website and book the cheapest option available to them: Swoop.

Just like you go to the AC page to "book" Jazz, Sky, or Rouge.

Passengers don't care what name is printed on the side of the plane, as long as they save a few bucks.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by altiplano » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:43 pm

Donald wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:45 pm
Where was the blacklist for:

Jetsgo

Enerjet

Sunwing

Flair

Encore

Any other airline that has "lowered the bar".

I get that WJ pilots are upset by Swoop, but this blacklist nonsense has to stop.

Unless you are willing to start building a pilot compensation fund for anyone who ends up unemployed and not hired at WJ or AC.
There's a difference. There were always airlines and pilots that "lower the bar", undercut the next guy.

But here you have management outright end running their own pilot group (a pilot group that by all accounts has been extremely productive and accommodating to building how many consecutive quarters of profit?) with scabs flying the same airplanes.

Anyone going to this hastily put together entity, not only works for less and hurts our profession, but most significantly also actively undermines the collective bargaining process of the Westjet Pilots.

Scabs. Not guys just trying to get a better job. Scabs hurting another group. They ought to think about their choices and be aware they are being used... of course some won't give a shit.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by telex » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:47 pm

altiplano wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:43 pm
Donald wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:45 pm
Where was the blacklist for:

Jetsgo

Enerjet

Sunwing

Flair

Encore

Any other airline that has "lowered the bar".

I get that WJ pilots are upset by Swoop, but this blacklist nonsense has to stop.

Unless you are willing to start building a pilot compensation fund for anyone who ends up unemployed and not hired at WJ or AC.
There's a difference. There were always airlines and pilots that "lower the bar", undercut the next guy.

But here you have management outright end running their own pilot group (a pilot group that by all accounts has been extremely productive and accommodating to building how many consecutive quarters of profit?) with scabs flying the same airplanes.

Anyone going to this hastily put together entity, not only works for less and hurts our profession, but most significantly also actively undermines the collective bargaining process of the Westjet Pilots.

Scabs. Not guys just trying to get a better job. Scabs hurting another group. They ought to think about their choices and be aware they are being used... of course some won't give a shit.
Since we're using "scab" to define anybody who did the same work as another pilot group for less money can somebody please post what Canadian Airlines B737-200 drivers were being paid when Westjet started flying B737-200's to the same destinations?

How about a DC9 Captain at AC? Similar work and all.
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Donald
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Donald » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:56 pm

I think you just described Flair VS KFC to a T.

Where's that blacklist again?
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by PostmasterGeneral » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:52 pm

Am I the only one who sees the backward logic some people have here? A Swoop captain, flying a 737, makes less than an A scale captain at Jazz on an RJ/Q4/Classic. (Status pay means type is irrelevant.)

The Swoop guy seems to have this “but I fly a 737!” Mentality, which to me, seems backwards. You fly a bigger plane, do more work, are responsible for more people, and have much worse working conditions, for LESS money.

How is this a win exactly? Does shiny jet syndrome really still exist?
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by seriousflyer » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:02 am

Your missing the point. It's not so much the money for everyone, as it's more of the opportunity, is why pilots would apply to swoop. And opportunity looks different for everyone.

Swoop Captain and FO positions are attractive to all junior regional Airline pilots... It equals more money and more airplane than they currently have. The prospect of working as an Encore (or any regional) pilot for longer than a few years isn't as attractive as it is working on swoop pay scale.

But once they work the contract for awhile, they will either regret joining and quit OR unionize and demand more. And then they will want to join Westjet again or AC or anywhere and the Pilot hiring committees and unions will proove to be resistant, and will see swoop on the resumes and blacklist.

The other group of pilots that swoop attracts, are expat pilots wanting to come home and work for a startup and get captain 737 pay rates fairly quick in Canada. These pilots have no realistic ambition to join Westjet or AC.

Unfortunately, no one can stop these individuals from applying. The union is trying to posture this "swoop pay decrease" as much as they can, by promoting a strategy, that they believe will increase the majority of pilots pay, by accomplishing an excellent CBA for Westjet pilots. Which will ultimately benefit the 2000 pilots on the list, and the next 2000 pilots that come on the list in the future.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:29 am

telex wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:47 pm
altiplano wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:43 pm
Donald wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:45 pm
Where was the blacklist for:

Jetsgo

Enerjet

Sunwing

Flair

Encore

Any other airline that has "lowered the bar".

I get that WJ pilots are upset by Swoop, but this blacklist nonsense has to stop.

Unless you are willing to start building a pilot compensation fund for anyone who ends up unemployed and not hired at WJ or AC.
There's a difference. There were always airlines and pilots that "lower the bar", undercut the next guy.

But here you have management outright end running their own pilot group (a pilot group that by all accounts has been extremely productive and accommodating to building how many consecutive quarters of profit?) with scabs flying the same airplanes.

Anyone going to this hastily put together entity, not only works for less and hurts our profession, but most significantly also actively undermines the collective bargaining process of the Westjet Pilots.

Scabs. Not guys just trying to get a better job. Scabs hurting another group. They ought to think about their choices and be aware they are being used... of course some won't give a shit.
Since we're using "scab" to define anybody who did the same work as another pilot group for less money can somebody please post what Canadian Airlines B737-200 drivers were being paid when Westjet started flying B737-200's to the same destinations?

How about a DC9 Captain at AC? Similar work and all.
And Jazz with their 757s
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by RB211 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:55 am

altiplano wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:43 pm
...
Anyone going to this hastily put together entity, not only works for less and hurts our profession, but most significantly also actively undermines the collective bargaining process of the Westjet Pilots.

...
Ultimately that is the issue you have isn't it? Other pilots should put the interest of the WJ pilots first and foremost when contemplating such an opportunity. It is not an altruistic concern for our "profession" but rather self preservation. The same self preservation that some other pilot has when looking to Swoop.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by yyc757 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:05 am

Canadian, AC and WJ were DIFFERENT COMPANIES. Canadian didn't own WJ.
AC didn't own WJ.

WJ OWNS Swoop.

One more thing Dadiem, if you just wait a few months you'll get a way better job because if no one applies WJ will have to actually use its pilots and will then be hiring. Now if you just want to budge the line (and literally take my left seat after I have just been here almost 8 years) then you are a selfish opportunist who will step on honest people's livelihoods. I have a family to take care of. You have a family too. Do you see me coming in and bumping you out of a job?
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Bede » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:17 am

BE20 Driver wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:48 pm
How many of you "not a dollar less per hour" guys have emailed ALPA to suggest Status Pay? If you're so convinced that everyone be paid equally, put your money where your mouth is. Maybe ALPA will knock it out of the park with the negotiations and you'll end up with a huge raise that can be distributed down to the Swoop guys.

I think Diadem, Victory, digits, Hans et al. make a good point. The idea of banning a person who may really need this job and can't get an AC/WS mainline job is beyond arrogant and self centred.

The argument of don't do this because it'll affect my WAWCON and eventually you'll be where I am doesn't hold water with me. Eventually doesn't pay tomorrow's bills.
Isn't this what ALPA is saying? Status pay for WJ and Swoop? We all earn the same. Unless I'm misinterpreting your comment.

Interesting background. I wasn't around back then but from my understanding from talking to my ex-WJPA colleagues, the pay scale instituted a few contracts ago (when the options were drastically reduced) were supposed to be a status pay scale. It was quite a big pay jump because the understanding was that we'd be getting WB soon and the B737 pay and WB pay would be identical. Fast forward a couple of years and Encore came along. The WJPA went to the company and reminded them of the status pay proposal and the company, of course, declined status pay for B737 and DH8. Fast forward some more years and the WB negotiations started. The company brought up the status pay idea wanting WB rates identical to B737 and the WJPA countered with, "remember when we discussed this with Encore". So once again, status pay got nixed.

This has nothing to do with other companies. If JetLines wants to pay guys $15/hr and gets pilots, so be it. This has everything to do with a management team that has committed to having WJ pilots fly Swoop and then hiring outside when they didn't get the terms they wanted. This is not legal and immoral IMO.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Realitychex » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:22 am

Please translate those rates into what an annualized salary would look like, given full, practical flying blocks, and not including benefits and per diems.
Transonic wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:52 pm
Thanks Realitychex.

Question for you. How does the posted pay rates compare to the figures you modelled?

Thanks!

For reference.

Capt
Step 1 - $103.57
Step 2 - $119.50
Step 3 - $131.468

FO
Step 1 - $55.83
Step 2 - $69.62
Step 3 - $76.58
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by telex » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:21 am

yyc757 wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:05 am
Canadian, AC and WJ were DIFFERENT COMPANIES. Canadian didn't own WJ.
AC didn't own WJ.


WJ OWNS Swoop.

One more thing Dadiem, if you just wait a few months you'll get a way better job because if no one applies WJ will have to actually use its pilots and will then be hiring. Now if you just want to budge the line (and literally take my left seat after I have just been here almost 8 years) then you are a selfish opportunist who will step on honest people's livelihoods. I have a family to take care of. You have a family too. Do you see me coming in and bumping you out of a job?
Now I got it. Westjet started and their pilots worked for less than those already established in the industry doing the same work thus raising the bar for all.

I assume you support Flair undercutting every other operation because they are a DIFFERENT COMPANY?
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Transonic » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:26 am

Realitychex wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:22 am
Please translate those rates into what an annualized salary would look like, given full, practical flying blocks, and not including benefits and per diems.
Transonic wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:52 pm
Thanks Realitychex.

Question for you. How does the posted pay rates compare to the figures you modelled?

Thanks!

For reference.

Capt
Step 1 - $103.57
Step 2 - $119.50
Step 3 - $131.468

FO
Step 1 - $55.83
Step 2 - $69.62
Step 3 - $76.58

A quick reference to ALPA data shows the average annual block hours flown per FTE pilot:
WestJet 736
Southwest 704
Spirit 552
Frontier 531
Allegiant 480.

So most likely best to compare to WS @77.5hrs/month.

Step 1 - $96 320
Step 2 - $111 135
Step 3 - $122 267

FO
Step 1 - $51 921
Step 2 - $64 746
Step 3 - $71 219
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Air.Field » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:43 am

yyc757 wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:05 am

One more thing Dadiem, if you just wait a few months you'll get a way better job because if no one applies WJ will have to actually use its pilots and will then be hiring. Now if you just want to budge the line (and literally take my left seat after I have just been here almost 8 years) then you are a selfish opportunist who will step on honest people's livelihoods. I have a family to take care of. You have a family too. Do you see me coming in and bumping you out of a job?
No your not bumping him out of a job, but you are trying to prevent him from applying to feed his family. I will agree though to wait a few mths, afterall the deadline on that job ad is end of April, lots of time for things to transpire before Swoop even starts it's first ground school. And there is also Canada Jetlines who should soon have an ad out and whatever other ULCCs are starting up this year.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by Transonic » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:45 am

telex wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:47 pm
altiplano wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:43 pm
Donald wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:45 pm
Where was the blacklist for:

Jetsgo

Enerjet

Sunwing

Flair

Encore

Any other airline that has "lowered the bar".

I get that WJ pilots are upset by Swoop, but this blacklist nonsense has to stop.

Unless you are willing to start building a pilot compensation fund for anyone who ends up unemployed and not hired at WJ or AC.
There's a difference. There were always airlines and pilots that "lower the bar", undercut the next guy.

But here you have management outright end running their own pilot group (a pilot group that by all accounts has been extremely productive and accommodating to building how many consecutive quarters of profit?) with scabs flying the same airplanes.

Anyone going to this hastily put together entity, not only works for less and hurts our profession, but most significantly also actively undermines the collective bargaining process of the Westjet Pilots.

Scabs. Not guys just trying to get a better job. Scabs hurting another group. They ought to think about their choices and be aware they are being used... of course some won't give a shit.
Since we're using "scab" to define anybody who did the same work as another pilot group for less money can somebody please post what Canadian Airlines B737-200 drivers were being paid when Westjet started flying B737-200's to the same destinations?

How about a DC9 Captain at AC? Similar work and all.
Again, not relevant as they are different companies.

This is why the term scab is being thrown around. From Section 10 of WestJet's 2015 Pilot Agreement.

"All aircraft operated by WestJet, WestJet Encore, its subsidiaries, affiliates and/or any entity in which WestJet has effective and/or operational control must be flown by pilots as listed in the WPDL."

This contact is presently frozen until a CBA is ratified. The story is just beginning.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by yyc757 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:48 am

telex wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:21 am
yyc757 wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:05 am
Canadian, AC and WJ were DIFFERENT COMPANIES. Canadian didn't own WJ.
AC didn't own WJ.


WJ OWNS Swoop.

One more thing Dadiem, if you just wait a few months you'll get a way better job because if no one applies WJ will have to actually use its pilots and will then be hiring. Now if you just want to budge the line (and literally take my left seat after I have just been here almost 8 years) then you are a selfish opportunist who will step on honest people's livelihoods. I have a family to take care of. You have a family too. Do you see me coming in and bumping you out of a job?
Now I got it. Westjet started and their pilots worked for less than those already established in the industry doing the same work thus raising the bar for all.

I assume you support Flair undercutting every other operation because they are a DIFFERENT COMPANY?
No. Clearly you don't. I am not a hypocrite. I did not apply back then. I chose a different airline.

Flair pay is not my business. I may not like it (and I didn't appreciate the early days pay at WJ.... which is why I didn't apply) but that is not my company. Swoop is.

This is an internal matter.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by JBI » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:53 am

Donald wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:22 pm
... to book a ticket on them, one will go to the WJ website and book the cheapest option available to them: Swoop.

Just like you go to the AC page to "book" Jazz, Sky, or Rouge.
This is incorrect. All Swoop bookings will be on a separate website with a separate check-in area etc.

WestJet is far more concerned about having Swoop hurt their image than it is about upsetting the pilot group. As a result they're using a separate website and booking engine.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by altiplano » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:57 am

telex wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:47 pm
Since we're using "scab" to define anybody who did the same work as another pilot group for less money
No that's not it. As I said, there will always be some that are at the bottom... undercutting the next operator.

There is some nuance lost there.

What makes them a scab is doing the work of the pilot group. They are complicit in the corporation undermining the job and position of someone else trying to achieve a collective agreement.

It's akin to crossing a picket line in a strike to support the corporate position, keep the flights going, diminish the position of the person's job you're taking, and do it for less.

This is union busting... Plain and simple. It's not about you. It's about hurting someone else. Is that what you want to be used to support?

While you may think you're advancing your interests, it's short term thinking.
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Re: Swoop pilot hiring.

Post by altiplano » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:10 am

RB211 wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:55 am
altiplano wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:43 pm
...
Anyone going to this hastily put together entity, not only works for less and hurts our profession, but most significantly also actively undermines the collective bargaining process of the Westjet Pilots.

...
Ultimately that is the issue you have isn't it? Other pilots should put the interest of the WJ pilots first and foremost when contemplating such an opportunity. It is not an altruistic concern for our "profession" but rather self preservation. The same self preservation that some other pilot has when looking to Swoop.
It isn't self preservation for me, RB211.
I don't work at Westjet and this won't directly affect me.

This is about other pilots being complicit in subverting the rights and standing of another pilot. Not just working for less, but fucking them while you do it. Supporting corporate interests over those of your professional colleagues while selling yourself short.
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