Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

[Oldcommercialpilot]

I just wanted to post some frank information about the reality of Swoop Airlines for any young pilots weighing this as a career move. I am clearly against Swoop and what it represents to the aviation profession in Canada so I fully acknowledge that I am writing this from a biased point of view. However, ask ANY pilot at WestJet or Air Canada, and they will likely tell you that the following is accurate:

Career Progression - Swoop is not WetJet. There is not and never will be any form of flow-through agreement from Swoop to WestJet. In fact, between the ALPA hiring ban and the fact that nearly every WJ pilot feels this is an attack on the profession I would say it would most certainly hurt your chances of going to WestJet In the future. Even if you somehow managed to get on with WJ the working environment would be toxic and I most certainly would not want to be an ex-Swoop pilot going into any training/check-ride event with a WJ captain & instructor. Would you really want that looming over your head for your entire career?

Uncertainty - WJ has launched an Unfair Labour Practices complaint against ALPA. ALPA will likely do the same in the coming weeks. Then there is the almost-certain filing of Common Employer status, etc. In other words, this is about to get very messy for a very long time and there is no telling how this is going to play out after the courts/arbitrators/CIRB are done. I'm curious what Swoop is even telling their applicants in the interviews. I'm not entirely sure how they can even hire any pilots without knowing if they are legally allowed to circumvent their Union and hire from outside. Picture this... Today you are hired and are pilot #1 on the Swoop list. Months from now a CIRB ruling comes down in ALPAs favour and WJ must amalgamate the pilot lists. So... You go from Captain #1 to pilot #2500 and are now below the lowest FO on the Dash-8 at Encore.

ALPA hiring ban - For those of you who aren't aware, ALPA has issued an international hiring ban against Swoop as they are arguing that it is WestJet's attempt to circumvent the Union and cut labour costs. What this means is that ALPA is asking airlines & their unions to refuse to hire any pilot that has previously worked for Swoop.

I fully acknowledge that Unions don't hire pilots, companies do so this ban is more symbolic than anything. But... The reality is that breaking this ban is thumbing your nose at ALPA and at pilot solidarity in general - not just in Canada but worldwide. While companies may do the hiring, it is pilots that generally make up the majority of the interview panel as well as the training departments of these airlines. Do you really think this hiring ban is going to be entirely overlooked come interview time? Would you bet your career on it?

So what is your best-case scenario at Swoop?
You get hired, get a fairly quick upgrade, and move on to somewhere else before you top out at Step 3 pay? Well, you better hope you make it through the AC interview first time around because WJ is no longer an option for you. Did I mention that the Air Canada Pilots Association has issued a letter of support in regards to the hiring ban at Swoop?

The reality of WestJet - Even if there was flow-through from Swoop, WJ is not the same as it was a decade ago. 10-15 years ago WJ was the best airline job in Canada - hands down. Today, I would argue it is the worst airline job in terms of career progression, morale, and labour relations. If you were to get hired today at WestJet, you are likely looking at 5 years plus at Encore. Then you get to move to the right seat of the Jet in whichever base happens to be available for you and then move to that base - at your own expense all while taking a pay cut so you can start back at Year 1 FO pay. Then you can rot away in the right seat for about a decade or so before you are offered an upgrade, again, in whichever base happens to be available and you can once again move at your own expense across the country to start again at Year 1 Captain pay. So... in today's environment of global expansion and pilot shortages if you went to WJ - you can expect to put in a whopping 27 years with the company before you ever see the top pay scale as a captain. Depressed yet? A friend on the top WJ captain scale recently showed me a copy of his first pay stub of 2018. After taxes, ESP deductions, etc. it was a whopping $2100. So after putting in a 27 year career you can look forward to pulling in a little over 2 grand per pay cheque. By the way... These numbers are all based on WestJet BEFORE Swoop takes flight. After Swoop you can probably expect Flow, Hiring and Upgrades at WJ to slow to a trickle so you can likely double those expected upgrade times. As far as the $2100 pay cheque ... Good luck ever negotiating any kind of pay raise in the future once you have an airline in house flying the same airplanes for less money. Dont expect wages to improve.

In today's aviation world where we are just on the very cusp of a worldwide pilot shortage why would anyone in their right mind even consider such a career-limiting move? Let's face it - no one's career goal is to fly a jam-packed 737 painted pink for an Ultra-Low-Cost Airline with minimal benefits and for 40% less than the going rate. If you are even considering this as a stepping-stone to land you that next great job I would urge you to walk down the street to Sunwing, Flair, or any other of the multitude of airline jobs offering comparable positions for equal or better pay.

Air Canada is growing rapidly and experiencing unprecedented retirements - hiring hundreds of pilots per year for the forseable future. They have a long track record of hiring pilots without jet experience. Great benefits, new airplanes, pension, best pay in Canada, quick upgrades, and best of all... Years of Service -based pay meaning that when you upgrade after 5 years you will move directly over the Year 5 captain pay unlike WJ where you will start at Step 1 and have to work your way up. This equates to millions of dollars in total career earnings.

Do you really want to work for an airline that has such lack of respect for its employees that it's attempting to circumvent them entirely by subcontracting their jobs out for 40% less. Trust me... You do not.

[delta1]

I suppose it could be a quick stepping stone for a captain wanting/needing a 737 type rating and/or Jet PIC to go overseas for a job which pays exponentially more....but yes not much incentive. Let’s just hope the ties/epaulettes aren’t pink.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Let’s just hope the ties/epaulettes aren’t pink.

Lets hope they are! Makes it easier to identify the blacklisted guys in the terminal.

[Victory]

A salary of $300000 USD at an Asian carrier. Factor in that it is tax free and you would have to make around $700000 CAD at a Canadian airline to equal what they are paying. Not only will Swoop give you the experience to get that $700k/year job they will pay you $100k/year to do it.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Aviation memories are short in Canada. The blacklist is all BS. You will not have it "hanging over your head for your entire life"

Canadian and Air Canada pilots share the same cockpit, so do Air Canada and Air Ontario. No one blacklisted the Jetsgo pilots who handed over a briefcase full of $30,000 or the Jazz guys who flew 757s for considerably less than Skyservice pilots made.

Don't let the rhetoric scare you.

[Rowdy]

A salary of $300000 USD at an Asian carrier. Factor in that it is tax free and you would have to make around $700000 CAD at a Canadian airline to equal what they are paying. Not only will Swoop give you the experience to get that $700k/year job they will pay you $100k/year to do it.

Assuming you have no intention of trying to come back to canada with any of it.. because the tax bill will be huge and hefty if you do.

[Oldcommercialpilot]

So Johnny Hot Rocks ... I guess you didn’t actually read my post at all then.

[fish4life]

A salary of $300000 USD at an Asian carrier. Factor in that it is tax free and you would have to make around $700000 CAD at a Canadian airline to equal what they are paying. Not only will Swoop give you the experience to get that $700k/year job they will pay you $100k/year to do it.

Assuming you have no intention of trying to come back to canada with any of it.. because the tax bill will be huge and hefty if you do.

It depends if you are in China you should have the tax treaty so it’s all tax free.

[Rowdy]

A salary of $300000 USD at an Asian carrier. Factor in that it is tax free and you would have to make around $700000 CAD at a Canadian airline to equal what they are paying. Not only will Swoop give you the experience to get that $700k/year job they will pay you $100k/year to do it.

Assuming you have no intention of trying to come back to canada with any of it.. because the tax bill will be huge and hefty if you do.

It depends if you are in China you should have the tax treaty so it’s all tax free.

Not exactly how the tax treaty works.. you are simply exempt from anything you've paid in local taxes. You still have to claim in canada and pay CPP and EI premiums as well. Plus MSP (province dependant). The canadian gov. will get their pound of flesh out of you if you plan to come back.

If it was as easy as just pulling in 300k USD straight to your bank account and commuting.. more people would be doing it

[Bede]

A salary of $300000 USD at an Asian carrier. Factor in that it is tax free and you would have to make around $700000 CAD at a Canadian airline to equal what they are paying. Not only will Swoop give you the experience to get that $700k/year job they will pay you $100k/year to do it.

From my understanding those Asian jobs are actually very difficult to get. Between the tough sim evaluation and the day long medical, they have a lot of reasons to cut you. I know a lot of people that have applied and only 2 that I know personally that got hired.

If you can't get a decent job in canada, I don't think that you're going to get a decent job overseas after working at Swoop for a couple years.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

So Johnny Hot Rocks ... I guess you didn’t actually read my post at all then.

What I took from your post is that by taking a job at Swoop you would be hurting your chances of working at AC or WJ in the future. I am saying that all sorts of rotten shit has happened in this industry and people have short memories. Blacklists don't survive.

I don't agree with the Swoop deal, but if someone works there they are not jeopardizing their future in this wonderful Canadian Mecca of aviation.

[HansDietrich]

...However, ask ANY pilot at WestJet or Air Canada, and they will likely tell you that the following is accurate:

This is where I stopped reading.

Here's what I have to say to those Air Canada pilots. The day you vote in your contract to have us "Regional guys "move over to Air Canada without an interview, jumping through hoops etc. is the day I'm going to give a f*ck about your moral high-ground!

End rant!

Good evening!

[BE20 Driver]

...this is about to get very messy for a very long time and there is no telling how this is going to play out after the courts/arbitrators/CIRB are done.


...WJ is not the same as it was a decade ago. 10-15 years ago WJ was the best airline job in Canada - hands down. Today, I would argue it is the worst airline job in terms of career progression, morale, and labour relations. If you were to get hired today at WestJet, you are likely looking at 5 years plus at Encore. Then you get to move to the right seat of the Jet in whichever base happens to be available for you and then move to that base - at your own expense all while taking a pay cut so you can start back at Year 1 FO pay. Then you can rot away in the right seat for about a decade or so before you are offered an upgrade, again, in whichever base happens to be available and you can once again move at your own expense across the country to start again at Year 1 Captain pay. So... in today's environment of global expansion and pilot shortages if you went to WJ - you can expect to put in a whopping 27 years with the company before you ever see the top pay scale as a captain. Depressed yet? A friend on the top WJ captain scale recently showed me a copy of his first pay stub of 2018. After taxes, ESP deductions, etc. it was a whopping $2100. So after putting in a 27 year career you can look forward to pulling in a little over 2 grand per pay cheque. By the way... These numbers are all based on WestJet BEFORE Swoop takes flight. After Swoop you can probably expect Flow, Hiring and Upgrades at WJ to slow to a trickle so you can likely double those expected upgrade times. As far as the $2100 pay cheque ... Good luck ever negotiating any kind of pay raise in the future once you have an airline in house flying the same airplanes for less money. Dont expect wages to improve.

These are about the only truly accurate statements by Newcommercialpilot - I mean Oldcommercialpilot.

It's going to get messy and Captain Wing Nut is making a reasoned argument for not coming to WS at all, let alone through Swoop or Encore.

From my understanding those Asian jobs are actually very difficult to get. Between the tough sim evaluation and the day long medical, they have a lot of reasons to cut you. I know a lot of people that have applied and only 2 that I know personally that got hired.

If you can't get a decent job in canada, I don't think that you're going to get a decent job overseas after working at Swoop for a couple years.

So, Bede, it's difficult why even bother trying? If China is difficult, go to Japan. Hell, look at the "Australia is hiring foreign pilots thread." Apparently Qantas Regional is offering to pay for Visa applications and offering $100,000 MORE than Encore and Jazz are doing.

I have heard that there were close to 100 internal applications from current WS pilots. That means that there were probably 100 individual reasons why to go to Swoop.

[#37]

I have heard that there were close to 100 internal applications from current WS pilots. That means that there were probably 100 individual reasons why to go to Swoop.

Interesting, I didn't hear of an internal job posting. 100 percent of the WJA pilots I know, know nothing about it.... So where did these "100 internal applications" actually apply?

[boeingguy]

I just wanted to post some frank information about the reality of Swoop Airlines for any young pilots weighing this as a career move. I am clearly against Swoop and what it represents to the aviation profession in Canada so I fully acknowledge that I am writing this from a biased point of view. However, ask ANY pilot at WestJet or Air Canada, and they will likely tell you that the following is accurate:

Career Progression - Swoop is not WetJet. There is not and never will be any form of flow-through agreement from Swoop to WestJet. In fact, between the ALPA hiring ban and the fact that nearly every WJ pilot feels this is an attack on the profession I would say it would most certainly hurt your chances of going to WestJet In the future. Even if you somehow managed to get on with WJ the working environment would be toxic and I most certainly would not want to be an ex-Swoop pilot going into any training/check-ride event with a WJ captain & instructor. Would you really want that looming over your head for your entire career?

Uncertainty - WJ has launched an Unfair Labour Practices complaint against ALPA. ALPA will likely do the same in the coming weeks. Then there is the almost-certain filing of Common Employer status, etc. In other words, this is about to get very messy for a very long time and there is no telling how this is going to play out after the courts/arbitrators/CIRB are done. I'm curious what Swoop is even telling their applicants in the interviews. I'm not entirely sure how they can even hire any pilots without knowing if they are legally allowed to circumvent their Union and hire from outside. Picture this... Today you are hired and are pilot #1 on the Swoop list. Months from now a CIRB ruling comes down in ALPAs favour and WJ must amalgamate the pilot lists. So... You go from Captain #1 to pilot #2500 and are now below the lowest FO on the Dash-8 at Encore.

ALPA hiring ban - For those of you who aren't aware, ALPA has issued an international hiring ban against Swoop as they are arguing that it is WestJet's attempt to circumvent the Union and cut labour costs. What this means is that ALPA is asking airlines & their unions to refuse to hire any pilot that has previously worked for Swoop.

I fully acknowledge that Unions don't hire pilots, companies do so this ban is more symbolic than anything. But... The reality is that breaking this ban is thumbing your nose at ALPA and at pilot solidarity in general - not just in Canada but worldwide. While companies may do the hiring, it is pilots that generally make up the majority of the interview panel as well as the training departments of these airlines. Do you really think this hiring ban is going to be entirely overlooked come interview time? Would you bet your career on it?

So what is your best-case scenario at Swoop?
You get hired, get a fairly quick upgrade, and move on to somewhere else before you top out at Step 3 pay? Well, you better hope you make it through the AC interview first time around because WJ is no longer an option for you. Did I mention that the Air Canada Pilots Association has issued a letter of support in regards to the hiring ban at Swoop?

The reality of WestJet - Even if there was flow-through from Swoop, WJ is not the same as it was a decade ago. 10-15 years ago WJ was the best airline job in Canada - hands down. Today, I would argue it is the worst airline job in terms of career progression, morale, and labour relations. If you were to get hired today at WestJet, you are likely looking at 5 years plus at Encore. Then you get to move to the right seat of the Jet in whichever base happens to be available for you and then move to that base - at your own expense all while taking a pay cut so you can start back at Year 1 FO pay. Then you can rot away in the right seat for about a decade or so before you are offered an upgrade, again, in whichever base happens to be available and you can once again move at your own expense across the country to start again at Year 1 Captain pay. So... in today's environment of global expansion and pilot shortages if you went to WJ - you can expect to put in a whopping 27 years with the company before you ever see the top pay scale as a captain. Depressed yet? A friend on the top WJ captain scale recently showed me a copy of his first pay stub of 2018. After taxes, ESP deductions, etc. it was a whopping $2100. So after putting in a 27 year career you can look forward to pulling in a little over 2 grand per pay cheque. By the way... These numbers are all based on WestJet BEFORE Swoop takes flight. After Swoop you can probably expect Flow, Hiring and Upgrades at WJ to slow to a trickle so you can likely double those expected upgrade times. As far as the $2100 pay cheque ... Good luck ever negotiating any kind of pay raise in the future once you have an airline in house flying the same airplanes for less money. Dont expect wages to improve.

In today's aviation world where we are just on the very cusp of a worldwide pilot shortage why would anyone in their right mind even consider such a career-limiting move? Let's face it - no one's career goal is to fly a jam-packed 737 painted pink for an Ultra-Low-Cost Airline with minimal benefits and for 40% less than the going rate. If you are even considering this as a stepping-stone to land you that next great job I would urge you to walk down the street to Sunwing, Flair, or any other of the multitude of airline jobs offering comparable positions for equal or better pay.

Air Canada is growing rapidly and experiencing unprecedented retirements - hiring hundreds of pilots per year for the forseable future. They have a long track record of hiring pilots without jet experience. Great benefits, new airplanes, pension, best pay in Canada, quick upgrades, and best of all... Years of Service -based pay meaning that when you upgrade after 5 years you will move directly over the Year 5 captain pay unlike WJ where you will start at Step 1 and have to work your way up. This equates to millions of dollars in total career earnings.

Do you really want to work for an airline that has such lack of respect for its employees that it's attempting to circumvent them entirely by subcontracting their jobs out for 40% less. Trust me... You do not.

Bang on Oldcommercialpilot

[boeingguy]

Aviation memories are short in Canada. The blacklist is all BS. You will not have it "hanging over your head for your entire life"

Canadian and Air Canada pilots share the same cockpit, so do Air Canada and Air Ontario. No one blacklisted the Jetsgo pilots who handed over a briefcase full of $30,000 or the Jazz guys who flew 757s for considerably less than Skyservice pilots made.

Don't let the rhetoric scare you.

What you say may be true at any airline in the world. But I’m guessing it won’t be very Westjetty in a WS tail for any former Swoop crews.

[altiplano]

Here's what I have to say to those Air Canada pilots. The day you vote in your contract to have us "Regional guys "move over to Air Canada without an interview, jumping through hoops etc. is the day I'm going to give a f*ck about your moral high-ground!

Who AC hires and the process they use to do it has nothing to do with the Pilots' contract. It's up to the Corporation, not the Pilots.

[HansDietrich]

Here's what I have to say to those Air Canada pilots. The day you vote in your contract to have us "Regional guys "move over to Air Canada without an interview, jumping through hoops etc. is the day I'm going to give a f*ck about your moral high-ground!

Who AC hires and the process they use to do it has nothing to do with the Pilots' contract. It's up to the Corporation, not the Pilots.

So ACPA doesn't have anything to do with how Express Pilots get hired at AC? Nothing at all? When Jazz was owned by AC, were Jazz pilots allowed to just bid on an AC aircraft? Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is not the info I'm getting from the old timers at Jazz. Look AC pilots can do what they want. It's their contract, their interests, but don't spew that "morality" about not going to Swoop. It's not like the big red pays 80K a year for a starting F/O... What's the first year wage now? 50K?

[PostmasterGeneral]

Anyone who brings up the money to b made in either Asia or the sandbox probably doesn’t know much about either of those places in reality. There’s a reason they pay so much, they HAVE TO in order to get qualified applicants to work there. It’s not exactly a sought after job.

[altiplano]

As much as those "Jazz Old-timers" you speak of wanted to combine the companies and carry their DOH from when they started at Austin Airways on a Beaver and go from a Dash8 Captain to the front of the line at AC and straight on the left seat of a 767, that's not how it works and the courts agreed.

ACPA should protect their members seniority. It's BOTL when you get hired. That's the deal when anyone gets hired here... and AC can hire anyone they want to the BOTL.

Your ideas of morality of going to swoop are distorted also. It's something some of you seem to miss... The problem at swoop isn't the pay, the problem is that Westjet is attempting to marginalise it's pilots and cut them out of their livelihoods. Likely it's posturing, but the people jumping over one another to get a fast track to a 737 are being used as pawns and will be on the losing end of it somehow when we see the dust settle, and the parties reach an agreement... If they don't, we'll see what the courts say.