“In June, when we have all of the regulatory approvals, we will announce southern flying into the U.S. and Mexico, potentially the Caribbean as well,” Bob Cummings, WestJet’s executive vice president of strategy, said in an interview. “We will aggressively go after the cross-border opportunity, which is quite significant.”
This is 100% WJ flying already. This needs to be stopped in its footsteps!!
There's only one way it stops. By pilots standing firm and NOT applying to accept and participate in sub-standard wages. There's a pilot shortage by the way and I think that WJ is just starting to feel it. We need to make sure the Swoop flying remains at WJ to ensure opportunities for EVERYBODY at WJ and Encore! Stand firm!
Wrong. Pilots will always take jobs. I don’t blame them.
Either the WJ pilots take a stand or they don’t. Blaming pilots looking for employment is just passing the buck so they don’t have to make the hard choices.
The Swoop issue really has NOTHING to do with OTS applicants at Swoop, because there will always be pilots willing to sit in the seat.
Pilots will always do what is best for them. And this can equate to high turn over which equates to high training costs, and ultimately & ideally improved pay.
Where this can go astray is when companies start complaining of pilot shortages and start looking at foreign workers or “cadets”. And of course there is always “training bonds”
The WJ pilots ARE standing firm. It would be nice if they had the support of their peers. ACPA and ALPA have publicly supported WJ pilots stance. If the support of all pilots in Canada was forthcoming it would benefit the WJ pilots position. If the WJ pilots are successful it will benefit everyone in the long run, except maybe people who are bored with the sandbox.
The only way non WJ pilots can support is by refusing to go to Swoop. Its not complicated, and if people choose to pursue their career at Swoop then that is their perogative but its a short term solution. They will not be happy, enjoy the flying, or the schedule or the pay.
We have to live our own life and choose whats best for us, but in my opinion Swoop is a poor choice for anyone.
“In June, when we have all of the regulatory approvals, we will announce southern flying into the U.S. and Mexico, potentially the Caribbean as well,” Bob Cummings, WestJet’s executive vice president of strategy, said in an interview. “We will aggressively go after the cross-border opportunity, which is quite significant.”
This is 100% WJ flying already. This needs to be stopped in its footsteps!!
There's only one way it stops. By pilots standing firm and NOT applying to accept and participate in sub-standard wages. There's a pilot shortage by the way and I think that WJ is just starting to feel it. We need to make sure the Swoop flying remains at WJ to ensure opportunities for EVERYBODY at WJ and Encore! Stand firm!
Google “burning platform” as it pertains to negotiation and change in the work place.
Greg is trying to make you panic. If he is successful there is a far greater chance, as a group, you will agree to something you never rationally would.
Calin is a pro at it. He has a saying something like. Nothing focuses the mind like a hanging in the morning. In this instance it is the threat of the death of your carrer.
Knowledge is power. If you understand what they are trying to do? They have no power.
Mark my words. This is just a dance. Maybe a better analogy is two boxers dancing around in circles.
WJ pilots will be flying those aircraft. The question is for what?
Relax everybody..It’s not like 737 Captains are a dime a dozen in Canada these days. They may be able to drag a few camel jocky’s out of the desert to get this abortion going, but there’s no way they can expand it the way they want to without the WJ pilots on board. This whole thing reminds me of the bases fiasco where hundreds of people’s lives were turned upside down over a weekend tantrum. Except this time there’s not a yes man with a rubber stamp expediting it through.. there’s a group of fellow pilots standing up for ‘our’ best interests. Don’t kid yourselves.. This swooping was in the mix for a long time, don’t be fooled into believing it was a result of a union. I would encourage everyone to wish them well in their new endeavour, remain professional, and simply do nothing at all. And how about supporting your fellow pilots, instead of antagonizing them on public forums? We sure as hell didn’t pick this fight but now it’s here. Stay together or get swooped.
NewCommercialPilot wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:30 am
There is only one path forward that will get those career expectations back on track. Resign your membership from ALPA. Be ready to sign the decertification card when it is offered to you. Regain the collaborative relationship that the WJPA had with the principals at WJ, versus the antagonistic relationship that ALPA now has. History at WJ has shown that there was a way forward so that WJE pilots could have, without penalty, flowed to Swoop and then flowed to WJ with some proper seniority credit for having done so. Mainline FO's who chose to do so, could have flowed to Swoop as Captains and returned to WJ with some credit for having done so.
NCP, even you can't possibly be so naive to think that a $4+ billion corporation is just being petulant because its pilots chose a different form of representation and that all will be well again in WestJet Land if the big bad union just went away.
Oldcommercialpilot wrote: ↑Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:20 am
Well, after all of the deductions & taxes on the esp, etc a 10 year Captain takes home about $2000 per pay cheque at WestJet and their hourly rate is close to double that of Swoop. The “financial perks” are also double. The saying at WJ is T4 rich and Cash poor.
Not sure what it would work out to annually but I would guess that the monthly paycheques at Swoop would be somewhere around $1100 for a captain and about $700 for an FO.
No, I’m not kidding.
How did you arrive at those numbers? Using the ESPP calculator and punching in Step 1 pay and the max 10% ESPP contribution for a Capt and FO living in Ontario I got the following bi-weekly take home pay based on the minimum guarantee of 75 hrs/month.
Capt
Without ESPP: $2,538.31
With ESPP: $2,122.04
FO
Without ESPP: $1,490.57
With ESPP: $1,230.45
That's worse than working at a regional on a classic as a year one FO.
I think it's nice that so many have so much concern for the poor wretches that will go to work at Swoop that they're taking such lengths to warn them about how low the pay is.
Not self-interest, of course. Just looking out for their brothers.
It's touching.
(Well, ok, maybe the whole tire-slashing scab-calling thing isn't too brotherly but hey...)
The sad thing is, Swoop has already succeeded in its objectives before it boards a single passenger. It will either come into being as a cost-lowering entity, or it won't but will cast a shadow over the teal tails.
Either way I hardly think it's a bluff.
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I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.
And another serious question, why should the WS management bring the flying back to you?
Rouge and their unwilling pilot association made internal concessions to help AC target the LCC market. Not saying it was the right thing - but it seems to have worked out.
I don't see why - if you can create and agree to Encore - and you really want the Swoop flying - you wouldn't be more flexible about modifying your agreement.
I'm extending an olive branch now- and I absolutely do not agree with their benefit package using WS benefits under a 'completely' different company. If they want to be separate - be separate.
schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:54 am
I don't see why - if you can create and agree to Encore - and you really want the Swoop flying - you wouldn't be more flexible about modifying your agreement.
Because we have an agreement that sets pay rates for the B737 aircraft. I don't see the fuel companies, insurance, Boeing, etc cutting there rates. Why should we?
schnitzel2k3 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:54 am
Rouge and their unwilling pilot association made internal concessions to help AC target the LCC market. Not saying it was the right thing - but it seems to have worked out.
I don't see why - if you can create and agree to Encore - and you really want the Swoop flying - you wouldn't be more flexible about modifying your agreement.
Rouge pay and working conditions on the 319 were lowered at AC in an attempt to match 737 pay and working conditions at WJ.
WJ management is now attempting to re establish the cost advantage they lost when Rouge started.
Air Canada wanted pilot costs to be equal to the competition.
Westjet wants Pilot costs to be cheaper than the competition.
There is a philosophical difference in expectations between AC & WJ management. One wants an equal playing field. The other wants a cost advantage.
It’s long past time WJ and AC management understand clearly. Get your cost advantage elsewhere. No longer on the backs of pilots.
If we don’t the philosophical difference between the two managements will drive a continued downward spiral. First WJ wages get lowered with Swoop. Then AC will want it matched.
groundpilot wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:57 am
Totally agree with FanBlade,
However,
Hard for AC pilots to stand almighty when SWOOP 2nd years pilots are paid more than AC 2nd years pilots.
$69.62 & $63.12 respectively
So we have Widebody FOs at mainline making less than ULCC FOs
Yet completely ignoring the Target Benefit Pension, higher per diems, lower OT trigger, 2 for 1 YOS towards Captain pay scale etc.
All true.
However, I think you're missing the point.
MAINLINE VS ULCC
It shouldn't be close but yet it is
Should we have an Air Canada vs North American Legacy Carriers review?
How about Canada vs the Rest of the world Salary review? The sniffling, arguing, backstabbing, status culturing, childish pontificating nature of this thread would explain everything.
