Marshmallows & kids

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Transonic
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

Post by Transonic »

NewCommercialPilot wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:18 am
Anyhow, my friend accepted an interview at Air Canada. Many pilots at Air Nova were advising junior pilots (like Bede is trying to do in this thread) to not take the positions at Air Canada. They too offered the carrot of delayed gratification.
You have your analogy backwards and it supports Bede.

Your friend was paid 1.5-2 marshmallows at Air Nova. He chose to go to Air Canada and be paid 1 marshmallow. He will retire with 6 marshmallows. Awesome, this is Bede's point.

His former coworkers suggested to jump the queue at Air Canada and earn 2,3 possibly 4 marshmallows right away. They have or will retire with 2.5 marshmallows, a delta of 3.5 marshmallows.

The hypothetical decision now is, to go to right seat at WestJet and earn 1ish marshmallow or go left seat Swoop and earn 2 marshmallows. After the length of the career your friend has, you will retire with 5 marshmallows now and hopefully 6 at WestJet. At Swoop, you will retire with 2.5, or 3 MAX. (You will earn 2.5 at WS after two years)

As a thread drift, Swoop will never pay more than 2.5-3 marshmallows if outside the WestJet list. "Pay will be commensurate with the ULCC space." If Swoop applicants are hopeful of raises in the future, you are wrong. You cannot approach WestJet costs otherwise WestJet pilots would do it. (see AC/SKY and AC RAA) You cannot strike effectively because WestJet can easily cover the smaller, single fleet. You are between a rock and a 800lb gorilla. And It's hard to earn a dollar off people who wear sweatpants daily.

For reference, a marshmallow is approx. 50 000 CAD in the above example.
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digits_
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

Post by digits_ »

I think the poll of the eduction level of pilots is way off.
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

Post by Rowdy »

montado wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:43 pm I’m curious at Jazz anyone know how many are on the “B” scale? Has it reached 50% with all the new hires being pumped through there? Does that ratio reflect with ALPA representation or is ALPA all “A” scale? When the music stops it will be great being an FO at those wages {sarcasm}, but I bet the captains leaving early getting a nice retirement package and DB will dust off their hands with a big smile. So the Jazz transition from the 4 marshmallowers to the 2 marshmallowers is nearly complete. But hey no one is blaming Jazz pilots. It’s the Sky and Georgian Scabs that did this to you{sarcasm again}.
Over 50% of Jazz is now on the B scale(checked the numbers from the Jan bid), and increasing by 14-16 members every 3 weeks.

Our MEC, who just reelected themselves, is all A-scale. There are however a bunch of LEC members who are B scalers.. and that will continue to increase. AFAIK the negotiators are all A-scale.
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Air.Field
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

Post by Air.Field »

digits_ wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:41 am I think the poll of the eduction level of pilots is way off.
:lol: that was great, thanks for the laugh digits, sadly you maybe right.
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

Post by mbav8r »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:23 am Mbav8r, please answer the following questions with a simple yes or no.
Were Jazz captains flying the 757 for less than the Skyservice captains who previously flew the contract?
Were Jazz captains the lowest paid 757 pilots in North America?
Q.1 No
Q.2 No
Because you clearly can’t comprehend how status pay works, I won’t bother trying to explain it again, I do you feel bad for you though, you appear to be one who was affected by that.
I have no idea why Sky Service lost the contract, we didn’t vote on whether or not to fly them, the wage was negotiated based on industry standard and the cost to operate those 57s was as much or more than Sky Service, I believe it was 185/hr factored in. I was told the work was sourced to us because Sky Service was a risk to fail and the tour operator wanted a stable operation, well above my pay grade, just hearsay.
I also said, we could argue all day about who undercut who and when but at some point we need to stop the madness, for what its worth, I was part of the 98% strike mandate that causeed Rovinescu to start SR, so I guess I’ll take part of the blame for that
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

I think your answers are wrong.
I was not affected by it. Just knew some people who were
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mbav8r
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

Post by mbav8r »

They are not wrong, the rate was 185/hr for Captains!
You’re trying to distort facts to support your position but you are wrong!
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Victory
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

Post by Victory »

No one at Jazz made 185/hr lol
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

mbav8r wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:40 pm They are not wrong, the rate was 185/hr for Captains!
You’re trying to distort facts to support your position but you are wrong!
No need to get so angry
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mbav8r
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

Post by mbav8r »

Victory wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:48 pm No one at Jazz made 185/hr lol
So, are you a troll or another idiot? Those are the only choices because even a grade 3 student could understand the status pay system.
Johnny,
How about you answer my question now, If it cost the company 185/hr per Captain position, did it happen or not?
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mbav8r
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

Post by mbav8r »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:55 pm
mbav8r wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:40 pm They are not wrong, the rate was 185/hr for Captains!
You’re trying to distort facts to support your position but you are wrong!
No need to get so angry
Not angry, frustrated, I didn’t YELL
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Fanblade
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

Post by Fanblade »

Victory wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:48 pm No one at Jazz made 185/hr lol
No but it cost Jazz 185/hr. Why do you care if they shared it around?

They didn’t lower the bar. The cost to have 757 pilots was reasonable.

Your issue is with status pay (communism😎) not the cost the Jazz pilot group charged to do 757 flying.
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montado
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

Post by montado »

Status pay is probably the best thing for this industry IMO. I wonder how many mainline pilots would bid to change type if they had status pay. The 190 would probably be one hot piece of metal.
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

I don't know what it cost the company. I just know that the pilots who flew the 757 were not making as much as other 757 pilots. I guess that is what you call "status pay"
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montado
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

Post by montado »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:37 am I don't know what it cost the company. I just know that the pilots who flew the 757 were not making as much as other 757 pilots. I guess that is what you call "status pay"
It sounds to me like:

The pilots who flew the 57, along with all the other pilots flying for Jazz, pooled their pay, and distribute pay based on years of service only (so they were paid as much as any other 57 driver they just chose to pay out the same way provincial equalization payments work) rather than based on type flown. The logic being a dash is arguably just as much work as flying the 57. A huge step forward if you ask me.

Obviously you get it. Maybe you don't agree with it. But maybe the day you are flying an aircraft solely based in the pay rather than lifestyle choice you would appreciate status pay. How many here would be flying an RJ rather than a heavy if they both paid the same? Home every night, no night shift, no time zone changes...
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

Sounds like communism lol
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montado
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

Post by montado »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:27 am Sounds like communism lol
Except that the pilots voted on a contract, and the pilots bid on aircraft type. Not sure you quite understand what communism is.
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

LOL
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skybaron
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

Post by skybaron »

montado wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:20 am
The pilots who flew the 57, along with all the other pilots flying for Jazz, pooled their pay, and distribute pay based on years of service only (so they were paid as much as any other 57 driver they just chose to pay out the same way provincial equalization payments work) rather than based on type flown. The logic being a dash is arguably just as much work as flying the 57. A huge step forward if you ask me.

Obviously you get it. Maybe you don't agree with it. But maybe the day you are flying an aircraft solely based in the pay rather than lifestyle choice you would appreciate status pay. How many here would be flying an RJ rather than a heavy if they both paid the same? Home every night, no night shift, no time zone changes...

Couldn’t agree with this more. With the current state of affairs at WJ, it would be in everyone’s interest for their unity to just go to an equipment bid style system berween WJ AND WJE. Same WAWCON... same pilot list... same company. Swoopsters will have no hope.
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Flying Low
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Re: Marshmallows & kids

Post by Flying Low »

OK...here is my one and final attempt to explain status pay. I'll make this real simple. Hourly rates are just for the example and make the math easier.

Industry Standard pay rates
B757 - Captain $200/hr
Dash 8 - Captain $100/hr

Company A (Type Pay)
B757 - Captain $200/hr
Dash 8 - Captain $100/hr

Company B (Status Pay)
B757 - Captain $150/hr
Dash 8 - Captain $150/hr

Now here is the complicated part...
How much is Company A and B paying their Captains for one hour of flying?

Answer $300

See...no one is undercutting the other. (yes I know it's more complicated as you have to factor in number of hours per fleet etc.)

Now...if Company C decides to start with a B757 and offers Captains $175/hr then the pilot who takes that job is actually undercutting the B757 pilot at Company A and the B757 and Dash 8 pilot at Company B.

It comes down to a question of what you want out of your career...if it's all about money then Company A is the way to go...if it's lifestyle then Company B may work better for you.
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