Thank you.
Was that so hard to be revealed, so we all know it wasn't mechanical? Beyond that I have zero interest in any gossip. Not my intent.
PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened
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rookiepilot
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened
Was that so hard to be revealed, so we all know it wasn't mechanical? Beyond that I have zero interest in any gossip. Not my intent.
Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened
Lo and behold... It wasn't the wind!
Going for the deck at corner
Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened
No but it sure says a lot about Montair.
Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened
Been a while since I flew a Seneca, but since when do any of them or Pipers in general have control locks? The only thing I've ever seen resembling a control lock in a Piper, is a seatbelt wrapped around the yoke...
Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened
Going for the deck at corner
Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened
https://www.aso.com/seller/10226/old/main.htm
From my experience, I've never seen a Piper with any provision for the Cessna style of control lock on the control column. From the above link, it appears this is the only sort of option. On Aircraft Spruce their writeup for the same product states "...since Pipers and Mooneys do not have control locks..."
Edit: Not to mention, it's right in the checklist and the POH a number of times, especially in the pre-takeoff checks: Controls - Free/Correct, full range of movement.
From my experience, I've never seen a Piper with any provision for the Cessna style of control lock on the control column. From the above link, it appears this is the only sort of option. On Aircraft Spruce their writeup for the same product states "...since Pipers and Mooneys do not have control locks..."
Edit: Not to mention, it's right in the checklist and the POH a number of times, especially in the pre-takeoff checks: Controls - Free/Correct, full range of movement.
Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened
External locks can be made for most any airplane and they are attached to the flight controls, ailerons, elevator and rudder controls.
External gust locks are far superior to those in the cockpit control locks.
External gust locks are far superior to those in the cockpit control locks.
Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened
Yes, and I quite agree. But, gust locks are only needed for variable tailwinds, are you sure you want to open that discussion for this accident?External gust locks are far superior to those in the cockpit control locks.
Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened
I guess you could ask how would someone not notice control locks if you're holding the aileron/elevator low if that's the side the wind is coming from. Unless ... there wasn't any while still taxiing for this take-off ?
Discussing gust locks would be the right way to carry on, now that the discussion is about the control locks.
Then Saabguy called it correctly at the beginning, unless BGH was also only suggesting it as an idea. But when that is verified, does the CADORS get ammended ?
And if so: ..Maybe more time in Sim during the previous day's bad weather? I mean how is including this checklist item adapted in the routine flights in a SIM ?
Discussing gust locks would be the right way to carry on, now that the discussion is about the control locks.
Then Saabguy called it correctly at the beginning, unless BGH was also only suggesting it as an idea. But when that is verified, does the CADORS get ammended ?
And if so: ..Maybe more time in Sim during the previous day's bad weather? I mean how is including this checklist item adapted in the routine flights in a SIM ?
Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened
A very valid point. During my very distant sim time, I'm not sure if "Controls free and correct" was a checklist item. Are we normalizing deviance, if we employ procedures trainers which skip vitally important simple elements of good piloting? It brings to mind my time at deHavilland, during which we received a request that a Twin Otter landplane be equipped with a landing gear selector with working position lights. "Why?" was the obvious reaction to such a request. The operator explained that all of there other types were retractable, so they wanted the operation of a landing gear selector, and checking gear position to be common across their fleet. I see the logic...I mean how is including this checklist item adapted in the routine flights in a SIM ?
If we are training new pilots that the primary walk around and "upon entering aircraft" checks are less important that programming avionics, we have a problem.
Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened
In that case the control column should be back, IMO. The only time you would leave it neutral is when there is a slight tailwind.
I do see that some flight schools say you should leave the elevator neutral in light wind, as it doesn't have much effect. Some even advocate leaving it neutral in any headwind (Langley Flying School).
Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened
( A good strategy, to ensure for the gear example ... a safeguard against forgetting.)
In the case of the original Control Lock with a flag above in full view, I'd imagine is harder to miss. Some have/had the attached flag REMOVE before starting engine, except pointing down/low under the column or faded ( black pin blends in too well ) is maybe poorly visible.
Example
There was one Cargomaster accident in the ASN database Jan 9 1998, an empty flight .. called back in at 12:30pm (50 min drive) for repositioning 3 aircraft, just home from scheduled early morning cargo flight/ daily roundtrip .. on the road 5am. The last leg off rwy3 Maiden NC at 5pm (nearing dusk on Jan 9) .. is found crashed a few miles after takeoff 40minutes later, single pilot fatal. Ntsb Report: control lock "tangled in the instrument panel ..with abnormal bends .. and a 90deg bend in the last 1/2in where engages the control column"; "control-lock normally 'stored in cargo net behind the pilot's seat during flights". Describes bizarre flight path deviations during/after takeoff, findings are "self induced pressure" (says "in a hurry" 3x / for family birthday celebration) and shoulder harness not used. "90deg bend" appears to be evidence of attempt to remove pin during the take-off (ie: realizing it) while getting airborne off 3000ft/40ft-wide paved.
If there is seizing of these removeable lock-pins where "engages" at the yoke (pinching or friction / if a force on the pin) when lifting/lowering elevator force against that lockpoint manually (by simulating the external pressure), maybe also futile to attempt late removal at various elevator pressures/cable-tension on such unfortunate takeoff scenario where forgetting has occurred ? Then no wasting of time was correct ... just RTO asap. Those control locks sometimes got misplaced, esp on training aircraft with many users; then resort to using a seatbelt where forgetting not possible because you need to wear it too; then one day someone finds the control lock and decides to use it (opening still there) or flying a different aircraft that uses the pin ... back to an old routine where forgetting is an issue again if not versed in the correct cues for removal or install.
An actual " controlls free " call out / action performed in the pre-start checklist covers that 100% failsafe.
