What is your highest level of education?

[CdnPilotsalary]

I know I'm going to get a lot of flack for having this opinion.

I don't know of a single university anywhere in Canada that will administer a completely multiple choice final exam that allows you to rewrite only the parts you failed.

It's an embarrassment that in Canada we can have a first officer flying airliners that does not know 39% of the material after multiple attempts. Until we move towards the European model of rigorous ATPL theory courses and pre-employment cognitive testing for airline pilots, it makes sense to require a college or university education. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone.

[SuperchargedRS]

Thought about it, you really don't have much experience in the industry do you?

And yes, you can see the quality of their hours and how they were logged based on their resume.

You may very well have more experience than me, but I do hold an ATPL. And from my personal experience, passing both the ATPL exams was less work than a single university course.
My post was directed at the sentiment that an ATPL can be in any way useful to assess an applicant, as compared to a university transcript. I'm aware that employers will look at the logbook, of course.

Passing a ride?

Who cares?

It's the experience gained in those 1500hrs that says something, with a real ATP you need a good amount of PIC time, cross country, night, instrument and so on, if you were a idiot you would likely have perished or had enough of a close call or two to get your ticket pulled.


Also for the interviews I've been on, I've had questions about my past experience, my personal life, hobbies, but I have never had anyone ask about my college degree.

[shimmydampner]

Passing a ride?

Who cares?

It's the experience gained in those 1500hrs that says something, with a real ATP you need a good amount of PIC time, cross country, night, instrument and so on, if you were a idiot you would likely have perished or had enough of a close call or two to get your ticket pulled.

This is absolutely false. I’d say passing a ride for a type rating is a far bigger deal than getting an ATPL. Ground school will take minimum a week, likely significantly longer for complex types. Again, the education required to pass the ATPL exams can be spoon fed to you in a weekend at the cost of a few hundred bucks, even if you are a mouth-breathing moron. It is reduced to a simple regurgitation exercise.
And while 1500 quality hours might mean something, there is no requirement that those hours be quality, and there is no longer any meaningful requirement for a “good amount of PIC time” in case you haven’t checked the regs lately. With the absurdly named PICUS option, one can conceivably acquire an ATPL with little more than the PIC time they left school with and a couple years of being a useless meat bag in the right seat.
Look, I get the point you’re trying to make, but you’re going about from a terrible angle. In the grand scheme of things, an ATPL is no longer a considerable achievement and if you think it is, it can only because you are only choosing to look at it through the lens of your own personal experience, which in itself is a hallmark of inexperience and immaturity. And besides, it’s not worth getting butt-hurt over people and/or airlines who place value on such things. Having an ATPL says something about a person. Having a degree says something different. It’s like comparing apples and oranges. A person who has both is still something else entirely, and that is not a bad thing. I wish I had a degree (for no other reason than I like to challenge myself) but I wouldn’t trade the early, formative years of my flying career for any school experience.

[FICU]

A degree is useless in terms of performing the duties of a pilot. It's a means of thinning out thousands of CVs by major airlines when they hire. The degree requirement goes by-by when the incoming frequency of CVs drops and is re-established when the pile gets bigger.

[SuperchargedRS]

Passing a ride?

Who cares?

It's the experience gained in those 1500hrs that says something, with a real ATP you need a good amount of PIC time, cross country, night, instrument and so on, if you were a idiot you would likely have perished or had enough of a close call or two to get your ticket pulled.

This is absolutely false. I’d say passing a ride for a type rating is a far bigger deal than getting an ATPL. Ground school will take minimum a week, likely significantly longer for complex types. Again, the education required to pass the ATPL exams can be spoon fed to you in a weekend at the cost of a few hundred bucks, even if you are a mouth-breathing moron. It is reduced to a simple regurgitation exercise.
And while 1500 quality hours might mean something, there is no requirement that those hours be quality, and there is no longer any meaningful requirement for a “good amount of PIC time” in case you haven’t checked the regs lately. With the absurdly named PICUS option, one can conceivably acquire an ATPL with little more than the PIC time they left school with and a couple years of being a useless meat bag in the right seat.
Look, I get the point you’re trying to make, but you’re going about from a terrible angle. In the grand scheme of things, an ATPL is no longer a considerable achievement and if you think it is, it can only because you are only choosing to look at it through the lens of your own personal experience, which in itself is a hallmark of inexperience and immaturity. And besides, it’s not worth getting butt-hurt over people and/or airlines who place value on such things. Having an ATPL says something about a person. Having a degree says something different. It’s like comparing apples and oranges. A person who has both is still something else entirely, and that is not a bad thing. I wish I had a degree (for no other reason than I like to challenge myself) but I wouldn’t trade the early, formative years of my flying career for any school experience.

Lol, yeahhh, no

First off I said a real ATP, not a euro ATP, like a US ATP, and I'm not talking about the check ride lol, I'm talking about the hours, and you can very much judge the quality based on the log book and the operators and types of operations the pilot used to build said hours, some kiddie who got those hours all euro style sitting on the captains lap in a Airbus and pretending to be PIC, vs someone flying single pilot IFR up north, big difference and very easy to spot.

As for a degree, man I had mine when my peers just got their highschool diplomas, with little effort I still did quite well, frankly I could have added on to that degree but why? It wouldn't have made me a single dollar more, it would have held my career back by taking my time away from making money and getting EXPERINCE in my industry.

Now if you're getting a degree in Engneering, or going to school to be a nurse, or a MD, or lawyer that's one thing, but getting a degree in lesbian dance theory, or English, or aviation, or some other generic crap, that is about as impressive, and about as useful for weeding out resumes, as asking if the applicant can touch their tongue to their nose. All it tells me is you or mommie had a bit of money or credit and 4 years to kill.

[CdnPilotsalary]

Lol, yeahhh, no

First off I said a real ATP, not a euro ATP, like a US ATP, and I'm not talking about the check ride lol, I'm talking about the hours, and you can very much judge the quality based on the log book and the operators and types of operations the pilot used to build said hours, some kiddie who gulf those hours all euro style sitting on the captains lap in a Airbus and pretending to be PIC, vs someone flying single pilot IFR up north, big difference and very easy to spot.

As for a degree, man I had mine when my peers just got their highschool diplomas, with little effort I still did quite well, frankly I could have added on to that degree but why? It wouldn't have made me a single dollar more, it would have held my career back by taking my time away from making money and getting EXPERINCE in my industry.

Now if you're getting a degree in Engneering, or going to school to be a nurse, or a MD, or lawyer that's one thing, but getting a degree in lesbian dance theory, or English, or aviation, or some other generic crap, that is about as impressive, and about as useful for weeding out resumes, as asking if the applicant can touch their tongue to their nose. All it tells me is you or mommie had a bit of money or credit and 4 years to kill.

It's funny you say that because the European system churns out more experienced and more knowledgeable ATPL holders than the US and Canadian systems.
Think about it. In Europe, you spend 6 months of full time studying alone just to pass the 14 ATPL subjects.
You then go into the right seat of an Airbus and fly through all kinds of weather, IFR, in high-density airspace, to and from some of the largest airports in the world.
Then at 1500 hours, you get an ATPL.
I reckon that at least 50% of ATPL applicants in Canada have their hours from VFR instructing in a Cessna, having written their exams after taking a two-day cram course.
If anything, it is the Europeans that are enlightened. We as Canadians are far behind.

[SuperchargedRS]

You really don't get it.

It's not about knowing exactly how many rivets are on a B777 rudder, or being able to break down the cause of the thunderstorm --on paper-- to the atomic level, its about operational experience, it's about being PIC, as in no nanny safety net, being the first and the last word in the cockpit, believe it or not building a foundation in small piston planes as PIC is much more solid than sitting next to a highly experienced PIC as "SIC" waaaay up in the flight levels with every possible system available, from dispatch to radar to sat phones to tons of thrust on autothrottles.


It's a trip, Canada is so funny when it comes to professional pilots and their need for self-flagellation, perhaps it's why companies get away paying peanuts.

[EPR]

All you need to do is read the Air France Flight 447 accident report to see how lack of "needle, ball and airspeed" (ie..lack of hands and feet) skills can determine the outcome of what should have been a non-event!
These guys were waaay over their heads in regards to "real hands and feet experience" in assessing the situation in my opinion.
This is the European model of making Airline Pilots out of private Pilots...they really only have a license to learn, sadly this flight had 228 souls on board!

[rookiepilot]

Off topic, but catch the little market slaughter in the US this past week? Entire (small) trading firms -- vaporized -- overnight. Much like aviation, I'm sure those wizards all had degrees, but no respect for risk.

[eyebrow737]

Elon Musk has now shut down this argument.

https://youtu.be/CQbKctnnA-Y

[cncpc]

Surprisingly high number of graduate degrees here, wow.

I'm calling bullshit on that. Trump University maybe.

I am surprised at the low number of four year aviation degrees. I'd have though there would be a lot of those. Not surprised at the high number of non aviation bachelor degrees though.

I have a graduate degree from a good university. It contributes nothing to my flying ability, which was already formed before I went back to school. It does contribute to my understanding of SMS and organizational sausage fests, and how the Peter Principle has no better lab rat farm than aviation in 703 and 704 in the management offices.

Many small aviation companies now would, if they were humans, be in hospice care.

Having a degree doesn't translate to being a good pilot. It does indicate that you may be a better investment as far as training and sticking around goes. And maybe not.

[cncpc]

Lol, yeahhh, no

First off I said a real ATP, not a euro ATP, like a US ATP, and I'm not talking about the check ride lol, I'm talking about the hours, and you can very much judge the quality based on the log book and the operators and types of operations the pilot used to build said hours, some kiddie who gulf those hours all euro style sitting on the captains lap in a Airbus and pretending to be PIC, vs someone flying single pilot IFR up north, big difference and very easy to spot.

As for a degree, man I had mine when my peers just got their highschool diplomas, with little effort I still did quite well, frankly I could have added on to that degree but why? It wouldn't have made me a single dollar more, it would have held my career back by taking my time away from making money and getting EXPERINCE in my industry.

Now if you're getting a degree in Engneering, or going to school to be a nurse, or a MD, or lawyer that's one thing, but getting a degree in lesbian dance theory, or English, or aviation, or some other generic crap, that is about as impressive, and about as useful for weeding out resumes, as asking if the applicant can touch their tongue to their nose. All it tells me is you or mommie had a bit of money or credit and 4 years to kill.

It's funny you say that because the European system churns out more experienced and more knowledgeable ATPL holders than the US and Canadian systems.
Think about it. In Europe, you spend 6 months of full time studying alone just to pass the 14 ATPL subjects.
You then go into the right seat of an Airbus and fly through all kinds of weather, IFR, in high-density airspace, to and from some of the largest airports in the world.
Then at 1500 hours, you get an ATPL.
I reckon that at least 50% of ATPL applicants in Canada have their hours from VFR instructing in a Cessna, having written their exams after taking a two-day cram course.
If anything, it is the Europeans that are enlightened. We as Canadians are far behind.

No, that is completely wrong.

The world's aviation nations are Canada, the US, Great Britain, France, Australia, New Zealand, and possibly South Africa.

[cncpc]

Thought about it, you really don't have much experience in the industry do you?

And yes, you can see the quality of their hours and how they were logged based on their resume.

You may very well have more experience than me, but I do hold an ATPL. And from my personal experience, passing both the ATPL exams was less work than a single university course.
My post was directed at the sentiment that an ATPL can be in any way useful to assess an applicant, as compared to a university transcript. I'm aware that employers will look at the logbook, of course.

I understand and agree that a detailed university transcript would be much more useful than an ATPL with regards to determining whether the applicant has an ability to learn vs being near brain dead. With that said, I only know of one airline that asks for a university transcript and I am not certain if they even check anymore. You could have a bachelors degree in Tiddlywinks from the University of Dido, NL and it will score the same as a law degree from Harvard on airline points based hiring matrix's.

That's "Dildo, NL". For some reason, I thought it was important to clarify that.

[CdnPilotsalary]

No, that is completely wrong.

The world's aviation nations are Canada, the US, Great Britain, France, Australia, New Zealand, and possibly South Africa.

What?

[CdnPilotsalary]

I'm calling bullshit on that. Trump University maybe.

I am surprised at the low number of four year aviation degrees. I'd have though there would be a lot of those. Not surprised at the high number of non aviation bachelor degrees though.

I have a graduate degree from a good university. It contributes nothing to my flying ability, which was already formed before I went back to school. It does contribute to my understanding of SMS and organizational sausage fests, and how the Peter Principle has no better lab rat farm than aviation in 703 and 704 in the management offices.

Many small aviation companies now would, if they were humans, be in hospice care.

Having a degree doesn't translate to being a good pilot. It does indicate that you may be a better investment as far as training and sticking around goes. And maybe not.

From what I understand, the only four-year aviation degree is from Seneca College. The others are business degrees or the like, with flying on the side.

[ant_321]

You may very well have more experience than me, but I do hold an ATPL. And from my personal experience, passing both the ATPL exams was less work than a single university course.
My post was directed at the sentiment that an ATPL can be in any way useful to assess an applicant, as compared to a university transcript. I'm aware that employers will look at the logbook, of course.

I understand and agree that a detailed university transcript would be much more useful than an ATPL with regards to determining whether the applicant has an ability to learn vs being near brain dead. With that said, I only know of one airline that asks for a university transcript and I am not certain if they even check anymore. You could have a bachelors degree in Tiddlywinks from the University of Dido, NL and it will score the same as a law degree from Harvard on airline points based hiring matrix's.

That's "Dildo, NL". For some reason, I thought it was important to clarify that.

Thank you. Auto correct is trying to make me look stupider than I already am.

[C.W.E.]

Dildo N.F.L.D. and Come by Chance are very close together.

[SuperchargedRS]

I'm calling bullshit on that. Trump University maybe.

I am surprised at the low number of four year aviation degrees. I'd have though there would be a lot of those. Not surprised at the high number of non aviation bachelor degrees though.

I have a graduate degree from a good university. It contributes nothing to my flying ability, which was already formed before I went back to school. It does contribute to my understanding of SMS and organizational sausage fests, and how the Peter Principle has no better lab rat farm than aviation in 703 and 704 in the management offices.

Many small aviation companies now would, if they were humans, be in hospice care.

Having a degree doesn't translate to being a good pilot. It does indicate that you may be a better investment as far as training and sticking around goes. And maybe not.

Uhh, a degree from Trump U is probably more useful than an "aviation degree" lol

[rookiepilot]

I'm calling bullshit on that. Trump University maybe.

I am surprised at the low number of four year aviation degrees. I'd have though there would be a lot of those. Not surprised at the high number of non aviation bachelor degrees though.

I have a graduate degree from a good university. It contributes nothing to my flying ability, which was already formed before I went back to school. It does contribute to my understanding of SMS and organizational sausage fests, and how the Peter Principle has no better lab rat farm than aviation in 703 and 704 in the management offices.

Many small aviation companies now would, if they were humans, be in hospice care.

Having a degree doesn't translate to being a good pilot. It does indicate that you may be a better investment as far as training and sticking around goes. And maybe not.

Uhh, a degree from Trump U is probably more useful than an "aviation degree" lol

This crowd favours the Trudeau / Clinton institute. Learning peoplekind.

[SuperchargedRS]

I'm calling bullshit on that. Trump University maybe.

I am surprised at the low number of four year aviation degrees. I'd have though there would be a lot of those. Not surprised at the high number of non aviation bachelor degrees though.

I have a graduate degree from a good university. It contributes nothing to my flying ability, which was already formed before I went back to school. It does contribute to my understanding of SMS and organizational sausage fests, and how the Peter Principle has no better lab rat farm than aviation in 703 and 704 in the management offices.

Many small aviation companies now would, if they were humans, be in hospice care.

Having a degree doesn't translate to being a good pilot. It does indicate that you may be a better investment as far as training and sticking around goes. And maybe not.

Uhh, a degree from Trump U is probably more useful than an "aviation degree" lol

This crowd favours the Trudeau / Clinton institute. Learning peoplekind.

Right!

The girl I'm with now used to be with one of those guys who was into that "peoplekind" type crap, she says it was like a glass of water after being in a desert, as much as the media hates it, women, the real world, business men, etc, still like real men.

[C.W.E.]

women, the real world, business men, etc, still like real men.

And men who like men speak in the PC mindset.

[C.W.E.]

And I wish I were as dumb and uneducated as Donald Trump.

[SuperchargedRS]

And I wish I were as dumb and uneducated as Donald Trump.

He actually has a rather formidable education, and has made enough money that ether he is the luckiest man alive or might have a few neurons to rub together.

I'm not a huge Trump fan, but gotta also give credit where credit is due

[rookiepilot]

And I wish I were as dumb and uneducated as Donald Trump.

What's amusing to me are all the Canuckleheads who get off on the Canadian superiority and love to criticize the American country which if you all pulled that liberal arts degree out of your ass and used it, you'd realize is far bigger than any one president. They remain an incredible, dynamic country that has created countless amounts of wealth, creativity and brought a lot of stability to the world.

I don't need a degree to understand this.

What has Canuckistan done, and doing, lately?

Legalized Pot. (Wowie -- our PM's defining achievement)
Changed our obviously offensive anthem
Created the term peoplekind
Engaged in Thought Police Behaviour over who can get summer program grants.
Screwed up any proper fighter jet replacement.
Can't even get a single pipeline built.
Is in the process of throwing away NAFTA, all in the name of trying to win a pissing contest with our largest trading partner.

Bravo.

You who are voting liberal, can you tell me why -- or at least what brand you toke up?

[C.W.E.]

Who voted Justin in as Prime Minster?

Or a better question would be what mentality would vote him in?