SWOOP startup/WJ Tail loss

[montado]

I think the plan is that WS pilots will fly the aircraft that end up at Swoop. In 3 years, probably flow from encore to westjet via swoop. You can Swoop your way to Westjet, now ain't that an Encore if I ever seen one.

[swimming]

.

[m9:24]

Between new duty regs coming requiring an increase in pilots, plus staffing the 787s by year end, WJ likely has enough pilots right now to meet all demand, especially as tails migrate to Swoop. The chance of any hiring in the new future at WJ is pretty unlikely in my mind.

[mmm..bacon]

Between new duty regs coming requiring an increase in pilots, plus staffing the 787s by year end, WJ likely has enough pilots right now to meet all demand, especially as tails migrate to Swoop. The chance of any hiring in the new future at WJ is pretty unlikely in my mind.

...Well, until AC starts poaching 737-rated pilots ...

[Rotten Apple #1]

As WJ migrates 10 tails to Swoop, what happens to the 100 or so pilots that the company is now fat on? What happens in 3 years when they migrate another 10-30 tails?

The Single Employer provisions of the CIRB were designed to expressly deal with the situation you envision. If jobs start to migrate to Swoop, then ALPA will rightly be in a position to claim Single Employer and combine Swoop's pilots with the ALPA bargaining unit at WJ and therefore boost Swoop's pay and work conditions to that of WJ.

Praise KeK!

[Boreas]

As WJ migrates 10 tails to Swoop, what happens to the 100 or so pilots that the company is now fat on? What happens in 3 years when they migrate another 10-30 tails?

The Single Employer provisions of the CIRB were designed to expressly deal with the situation you envision. If jobs start to migrate to Swoop, then ALPA will rightly be in a position to claim Single Employer and combine Swoop's pilots with the ALPA bargaining unit at WJ and therefore boost Swoop's pay and work conditions to that of WJ.

Praise KeK!

They're gonna help out the same pilots they just blacklisted?

[saltypilot]

Rotten Apple #1, observing your posts I can’t help but feel they most certainly read like an individual with designs to draw out the worst in others. I don’t like it at all. You shouldn’t like how the words you choose seem to bring out incredibly negative responses not just from one but many. Nobody should be feeding into this awful game. It’s one nobody will win. I’d like to respectfully suggest that we divert some energy and attention away from inciting divisiveness & infighting over to adding value to aviators lives. Can we agree that would be a more constructive use of our time?

I’ll be the first to say I’m as guilty as anyone else of getting swept up in the emotion, after all it’s really easy to get caught up in the politics of it all because our professional careers are attached to the outcomes so they MUST be positive outcomes. The alternative is unacceptable. Our families or our future families suffer every ounce as much as we do in every decision that is made throughout this process and that includes the words we choose or the actions we take.

In a day and age where everyone is offended so easily

From one human to another, Live in grace man.

[skybaron]

Can someone that works at WJ provide some insight on why they are operating 3 companies under the same Holding Company?

From a layman’s point of view, it seems like an aweful lot of WASTED “man power” in the sense that each of these companies, particularly Encore and now Swoop, all have their own corporate hierarchy who report to GS and the BOD.

Example: Encore has its own president and Vp’s, who all take direction from GS, and I imagine Swoop will be no different. Combine that with separate crews, crew schedulers, dispatchers etc (the list goes on), but same operations control, it seems like aweful waste of additional salaries when they could’ve just used the one that is existing - WJ’s.

The salaries of the executives alone at these “separate entities” must be pretty significant in terms of expense - especially that they have no say in anything that GS doesn’t approve of. Kind of makes their roles useless - as WJ’s BOD’s controls everything.

[altiplano]

They piss money up a rope with the duplication, loss of economies of scale, loss of flexibility between aircraft and crews...let alone customer and brand confusion...

But...

Division is priceless.

[The Tenth Man]

As WJ migrates 10 tails to Swoop, what happens to the 100 or so pilots that the company is now fat on? What happens in 3 years when they migrate another 10-30 tails?

The Single Employer provisions of the CIRB were designed to expressly deal with the situation you envision. If jobs start to migrate to Swoop, then ALPA will rightly be in a position to claim Single Employer and combine Swoop's pilots with the ALPA bargaining unit at WJ and therefore boost Swoop's pay and work conditions to that of WJ.

Praise KeK!

Now this is an interesting comment I made in response to the now MIA YVR Lurker. If Swoop's pilot numbers had increased, while there occurred a, oh I don't know, 10% drop in pilot positions at WestJet mainline, such that WestJet was down to 90% of pilot positions as of let's say Dec 21, 2018, well, ALPA would have been in a very strong position to claim that Swoop and WJ were a Single Employer under the Canada Labour Code. Subsequent to that finding, I think, Swoop pilots would have been automatically been given WJ pay and working conditions and become ALPA bargaining unit members.

Imagine if ALPA had been willing to negotiate with WJ when they were offered the chance to do so.

I will have to think on this and see how Swoop could have gotten to 30 tails without a loss in WJ pilot positions. Could the 787's absorb the pilots displaced by WJ returning NG's to the leasing companies, or transferring them to Swoop, all the while being cognizant of common employer triggering transactions?

And what would have happened to Swoop pay in the meantime, absent a common employer finding? If only there had been patience on the part of ALPA and the pilot group. I think the movement and opportunities in the aviation field helped make WJ pilots unable to wait for a greater reward through a patiently negotiated agreement.

Clive was the wrong guy to try out power games with.

[flyinhigh]

John, How many handles do you need to have. The amount of handles, personalities you carry is something of a 10 year old school girl trying to impress the 12 year old. Yet, no one here is buying it.

As for your post. It is common employer, has been since back in May.

Now this is an interesting comment I made in response to the now MIA YVR Lurker. If Swoop's pilot numbers had increased, while there occurred a, oh I don't know, 10% drop in pilot positions at WestJet mainline, such that WestJet was down to 90% of pilot positions as of let's say Dec 21, 2018, well, ALPA would have been in a very strong position to claim that Swoop and WJ were a Single Employer under the Canada Labour Code. Subsequent to that finding, I think, Swoop pilots would have been automatically been given WJ pay and working conditions and become ALPA bargaining unit members.

Imagine if ALPA had been willing to negotiate with WJ when they were offered the chance to do so.

I will have to think on this and see how Swoop could have gotten to 30 tails without a loss in WJ pilot positions. Could the 787's absorb the pilots displaced by WJ returning NG's to the leasing companies, or transferring them to Swoop, all the while being cognizant of common employer triggering transactions?

And what would have happened to Swoop pay in the meantime, absent a common employer finding? If only there had been patience on the part of ALPA and the pilot group. I think the movement and opportunities in the aviation field helped make WJ pilots unable to wait for a greater reward through a patiently negotiated agreement.

Clive was the wrong guy to try out power games with.

[CaptainHaddock]

The main problem with all of his multiple handles is he carpet bombs the whole forum-often talking to himself. I hardly come anymore as it’s killed the forum. If the moderators could at least ‘moderate’ him to one handle it might help somewhat. It’s becoming a forum of one.

[3down&loct]

I asked the moderators a long time ago to control the multiple handles issue. Seems little has been done.

[Lightchop]

I asked the moderators a long time ago to control the multiple handles issue. Seems little has been done.

Well apparently according to North Shore, The Tenth Man hasn't broken any rules yet. Although any forum I've ever been on in the past having multiple IDs is not permitted.

Or maybe it's time to just leave this forum once and for all since the moderators don't seem to give a shit. Do what you're doing on literally any other forum gets you IP banned. This site is falling apart and has been for the last few years.

Whoa, nelly! Steady up there, Lightchop. Google ‘The Tenth Man,’ and you’ll see why he carries on as he does. As he hasn’t broken any forum rules yet, it’s difficult to justify banning him.
No-one if forcing you to read his posts, especially when you do have the option of adding him to your ‘foe’ list, and not seeing them.
We, on the other hand have to tediously wade through Every. Single. One. So my G.A.S factor is probably a lot higher than yours

[North Shore]

You are correct, but that refers to having multiple names at the same time, and using them in opposition to/conjunction with each other. NewWeedCAACMan just seems to be changing his handle quite frequently. It’s annoying, agreed, but not against the rules. And, it’s not like he’s difficult to figure out - there’s a definite dearth of new posters signing up and covering the board with lengthy posts about arcane points of order from long out-of-date ALPA texts...
Further, as often stated, you do have the option to not see/react to his posts. I suspect that some of the fun he evidently derives out of posting would be absent if he were simply talking to himself.

[The Tenth Man]

Or maybe it's time to just leave this forum once and for all since the moderators don't seem to give a shit. Do what you're doing on literally any other forum gets you IP banned. This site is falling apart and has been for the last few years.

Lightchop, you can use the rules to your benefit as well by changing your name to Chicken Little or Henny Penny. Both are appropriate.

[Rowdy]

Or maybe it's time to just leave this forum once and for all since the moderators don't seem to give a shit. Do what you're doing on literally any other forum gets you IP banned. This site is falling apart and has been for the last few years.

Lightchop, you can use the rules to your benefit as well by changing your name to Chicken Little or Henny Penny. Both are appropriate.

So the guy that shits on people for making personal attacks.. turns around and then makes personal attacks. Oh the humanity!

[The Tenth Man]

Or maybe it's time to just leave this forum once and for all since the moderators don't seem to give a shit. Do what you're doing on literally any other forum gets you IP banned. This site is falling apart and has been for the last few years.

Lightchop, you can use the rules to your benefit as well by changing your name to Chicken Little or Henny Penny. Both are appropriate.

So the guy that shits on people for making personal attacks.. turns around and then makes personal attacks. Oh the humanity!

Uh huh. That's quite the attack I made. Of course one claiming that a forum is falling apart is legit.

I just find it curious that Lightchop Joined:Mon May 28, 2018 1:03 pm, or some 7 months ago, but claims that the forum has been "falling apart...for the last few years". Why would one join a forum if you knew it had been falling apart for years?

[Schooner69A]

I am reminded of the tale about a co-ed university when the segregated dorms faced each other across a road.

The male of the species were wont to parade around their rooms in various states of undress including no dress at all.

They received a message from the ladies across the street indicating that they were not amused by all the nudity on display and that they had not come to the university to learn male anatomy.

The lads responded that "It is not a required course"...

So with threads to which some object: if you don't like it, you can always "close your curtains"! (Or the cyber equivalent...)

[mbav8r]

Schooner69A,
Problem is, he carpet bombs threads that are of interest to us, looking for good information, not the rantings of a madman!
His posts are frequent and long and even though I scroll to the bottom of each of his posts, it’s unpleasant to have to do this.
Now you say, put him on the foe list, easier said than done when the poster changes his handle almost as often as he posts, the other problem is having to log on in order to have your foe’s posts removed from view. I don’t know about you but I don’t always log in and for the last while, at least a year, when I do login I get logged out every couple of pages for some reason, sometimes have to log back in several times to submit my own post.
Would be much better for all involved if he would just post in one thread only, then it can be easily avoided but he’s in every single thread, bleating on and on ignoring anything that contradicts his paranoid viewpoint.
Sad part, he supports a very divisive issue amongst his peers and is now, possibly always has been part of the problem, not the solution.
As for the one list, I can only hope that anyone deciding on the legal challenge will see that all parties new the deal when they joined and nothing has been “taken” from them.
It was what set WJ pilots apart from the rest, if a group are successful removing Encore pilots from the list all I can say is, they will be a very motivated group of pilots, good luck

[Schooner69A]

"...he supports a very divisive issue amongst his peers and is now, possibly always has been part of the problem, not the solution."


Is he wrong?


Or would you rather not know?


I suppose to prove him wrong, you'd have to invest as much time in research as he and you may not have the interest in doing so.


And why is it a 'divisive issue'? Is it because somebody is realizing that they were led down the garden path?


Or is it something else?


I was never in a union so don't know the 'ins and outs' of such entities. (Well, I was in an "association" one time, but we weren't very militant about things)

[Lightchop]

Lightchop, you can use the rules to your benefit as well by changing your name to Chicken Little or Henny Penny. Both are appropriate.

So the guy that shits on people for making personal attacks.. turns around and then makes personal attacks. Oh the humanity!

Uh huh. That's quite the attack I made. Of course one claiming that a forum is falling apart is legit.

I just find it curious that Lightchop Joined:Mon May 28, 2018 1:03 pm, or some 7 months ago, but claims that the forum has been "falling apart...for the last few years". Why would one join a forum if you knew it had been falling apart for years?

What, one can't browse a forum without posting?

[Schooner69A]

I've been on this site since 2008 under this c/s and well prior to that under another; given the plethora of threads displayed now, I don't see how one could aver that the site is going down hill.

Just because someone is not in agreement with some of the viewpoints doesn't mean a negative vector on the website.


JMS