PML reorganization

[co-joe]

It sounds like they are moving it toward what it should have been in the first place. Hopefully the next round goes smoother for people who are applying for the first time.

It sounds like they are moving the goal post...again.

I like your optimism.

[AvifiskAlly]

It sounds like they are moving it toward what it should have been in the first place. Hopefully the next round goes smoother for people who are applying for the first time.

It sounds like they are moving the goal post...again.

I like your optimism.

The first round went incredibly smooth for the people that AC wanted to hire, anyone who got caught in a big delay simply didn't score high enough to get hired at the time. The new PML lets the candidate see how they compare to the other applicants so you dont have to sit there and wonder why the phone is not ringing. Last time it didn't ring because they didn't want you "yet". The two things that can change are 1 they lower the score to get in 2 you get more qualified either by having more time, more PIC more education and so on. So the old process worked great for well qualified people the new process will work great for everybody.

[Victory]

So now you have to do 2 years minimum at Express? What was it before? Didn't I read people getting interviews in under a year?

[AvifiskAlly]

So now you have to do 2 years minimum at Express? What was it before? Didn't I read people getting interviews in under a year?

Before it was just seniority based, the problem was that a lot of people had their seniority number come up when they were under "ideally" qualified. This led to a higher % of PFO than what AC and Express wanted. The new system is qualification based with "preference" given to those that have had 2 years at the same Express. The new program gives you full visibility around how you rank and how competitive you are.

[iflyroads]

So would you be able to apply with say 1.5 years at an exp, and expect to be interviewed when you hit the 2 year mark?

I know a few guys on the last PML at various exp who had less than 2 years at the carrier and interviewed around the 2 year mark

[altiplano]

Here's my 0.02...

Don't overthink it, as someone mentioned "the goal posts move again".

That's more or less the truth. AC will change the way and from where they hire again and again as it suits them.

But whatever list/deal/program you think there is today, the way that works is:

- take the best job you can get express or other
- build a diverse background of experience
- command/large aircraft/airlines/jets/training
- show continued interest and update your resume a couple times a year.

Lots of express and non-express pilots in the groundschools from what I can see...

[gtanorth]

So would you be able to apply with say 1.5 years at an exp, and expect to be interviewed when you hit the 2 year mark?

I know a few guys on the last PML at various exp who had less than 2 years at the carrier and interviewed around the 2 year mark

Yes I think that is the way it works. They want you to apply early so you can see how you stack up and what you are missing so in those 2 years you can prepare yourself. It’s not just hours it’s education, being in the training Dept, building pic when it means having a worse schedule than you had as an FO. I think they did a great job laying it out there and are giving unprecedented visibility on the process.

[iflyroads]

So would you be able to apply with say 1.5 years at an exp, and expect to be interviewed when you hit the 2 year mark?

I know a few guys on the last PML at various exp who had less than 2 years at the carrier and interviewed around the 2 year mark

Yes I think that is the way it works. They want you to apply early so you can see how you stack up and what you are missing so in those 2 years you can prepare yourself. It’s not just hours it’s education, being in the training Dept, building pic when it means having a worse schedule than you had as an FO. I think they did a great job laying it out there and are giving unprecedented visibility on the process.

Thanks!

[GATRKGA]

Straight from the document

Air Canada will value a candidate’s flying experience in a number of ways. Some of the
experience deemed desirable includes multi-engine time, experience in a two-crew
environment, Pilot in Command time, time on an aircraft with a max ramp weight in excess of
15,000 kg, etc;
- Air Canada prefers applicants who have completed post-secondary education. They will
generally provide preference to those who have completed a 4-year degree program over a 3
year diploma program and so on. Air Canada will also provide preference to candidates who
have completed an aviation related post-secondary program which included a multi-engine IFR
and Commercial Pilot License.
- Preference will be given to candidates who have flown a minimum of two consecutive years
with their current Express carrier
- Air Canada values military experience
- Air Canada values experience as a Flight Instructor or Check Pilot in 705 operations or with the
Air Force; and
- Air Canada values English/French bilingualism

Here's my 2 cents.

Air Canada has made it clear in the last PML announcement, that they want people with multi engine, two crew, pic, on anything larger than a 1900. Dash 8 MRW hovers around 19 tonnes. This all of a sudden removes the stigma that having Jet time, or Jet PIC time will be valued over and beyond Dash 8/Q400 time.

That being said, I understand there to be quite a preference given to guys with either Jet Pic time or Jet time, given the positions that are opening. Especially the 737 Max situation. This means Jazz CRJ Captains, Sky Regional ERJ Captains, and Air Georgian CRJ Captains are likely the positions that AC would love to hire, followed by FO's. Provided they meet other requirements. You could have a Dash 8 captain, with a degree sitting slightly higher on the matrix than a Sky Regional E175 Captain with no degree. But that same E175 Captain with Check Airman / Instructing / Training Department exp may sit higher or equal to Dash 8 Captain with a degree. Sky 175 Training Captain likely sits higher than Dash 8 Captain no Degree. See the pattern?

So I would say, while this document is rather transparent. If you don't have a degree, take the jet job, work up to captain asap. I think it will work better in your favor than a seat lock on a Dash 8-300. Unless of course you want to be out west, then I guess you pick your apples and oranges accordingly and hope for a CRJ in YVR/YYC.

[AvifiskAlly]

Straight from the document

Air Canada will value a candidate’s flying experience in a number of ways. Some of the
experience deemed desirable includes multi-engine time, experience in a two-crew
environment, Pilot in Command time, time on an aircraft with a max ramp weight in excess of
15,000 kg, etc;
- Air Canada prefers applicants who have completed post-secondary education. They will
generally provide preference to those who have completed a 4-year degree program over a 3
year diploma program and so on. Air Canada will also provide preference to candidates who
have completed an aviation related post-secondary program which included a multi-engine IFR
and Commercial Pilot License.
- Preference will be given to candidates who have flown a minimum of two consecutive years
with their current Express carrier
- Air Canada values military experience
- Air Canada values experience as a Flight Instructor or Check Pilot in 705 operations or with the
Air Force; and
- Air Canada values English/French bilingualism

Here's my 2 cents.

Air Canada has made it clear in the last PML announcement, that they want people with multi engine, two crew, pic, on anything larger than a 1900. Dash 8 MRW hovers around 19 tonnes. This all of a sudden removes the stigma that having Jet time, or Jet PIC time will be valued over and beyond Dash 8/Q400 time.

That being said, I understand there to be quite a preference given to guys with either Jet Pic time or Jet time, given the positions that are opening. Especially the 737 Max situation. This means Jazz CRJ Captains, Sky Regional ERJ Captains, and Air Georgian CRJ Captains are likely the positions that AC would love to hire, followed by FO's. Provided they meet other requirements. You could have a Dash 8 captain, with a degree sitting slightly higher on the matrix than a Sky Regional E175 Captain with no degree. But that same E175 Captain with Check Airman / Instructing / Training Department exp may sit higher or equal to Dash 8 Captain with a degree. Sky 175 Training Captain likely sits higher than Dash 8 Captain no Degree. See the pattern?

So I would say, while this document is rather transparent. If you don't have a degree, take the jet job, work up to captain asap. I think it will work better in your favor than a seat lock on a Dash 8-300. Unless of course you want to be out west, then I guess you pick your apples and oranges accordingly and hope for a CRJ in YVR/YYC.

The point system is a bit more complex. For example it values scheduled service time more than charter on the same AC type. You will notice a very important "etc" in the PMA from AC in the time/equipment criteria. The same is said for jet vs TP, it's all about points. Same for education, same for getting involved beyond flying the line with training or checking. I think the best way to look at it is to break down the 100 or so things that make up the point system and see how many you tick. It's 100% about the accumulation of points compared to your peer group.

[Victory]

The size of the jet also matters. There are military guys coming from fighter jets or the Snowbirds that are considered to have "zero" jet time. Not all of their sims are Level D so unless they want to go do circuits with you (they don't) you need to have jet time above a certain weight to crew those positions.

[Air.Field]

The problem remains the same, it's HR based hiring, not pilot based. Regardless of experience, a degree/diploma will be favoured. That system is flawed. Oh but having a degree shows you can learn you say. So does numerous type ratings. So does experience of first hand knowledge of flying an aircraft after thousands and thousands of hours. End of the day they can hire the pilots they want, but basing on a HR system means weaker ones get through, those pilots make great for a desk, just not a sky desk.

[co-joe]

To me the real question is; did the 80% express number change? Or might we see AC hire 500 WJ pilots now?

[gtanorth]

Air Canada Express carrier pilots will continue to be compared to their peers at their own carrier, as
opposed to being compared to the much larger non-Express carrier pool of applicants. Air Canada will
favor those candidates who have stayed with one regional carrier rather than those who switch
employers, whether within the Air Canada family or outside. Pilots who elect to move from one Express
carrier may do so, however the above-mentioned two-year minimum will reset. Air Canada is
committed to hiring a substantial amount of our pilots from our Air Canada Express carriers, and this
path remains the best way to progress to a pilot career with Air Canada.

[Inverted2]

To me the real question is; did the 80% express number change? Or might we see AC hire 500 WJ pilots now?

They were careful to not make any # amounts. "Substantial" is what the term is. I would imagine it will continue as is. Once the express carriers run low on pilots they won't take as many to AC. Why? Because it will involve their own flights being cancelled and if you hire WJ/Encore/etc pilots you're only causing 1 training event versus 2 and hurting the competition at the same time.

[infiniteregulus]

It makes good business sense to hire from WestJet and competition. It will after all end up being a war of manpower with the victor being the one with all the pilots. Swoop really didn't help WJ in that regard. At the same time, it's important to maintain the numbers, both mainline (which shouldn't be a problem) and the express carriers. Not sure if a 2-year moving ban will do it. Threats incite fear, which incites compliance. But they also incite fight or flight responses, making it a weak motivation. In this environment money and QoL are the biggest motivational factors and the companies should be focusing on that as their weapon to win the war.

[GATRKGA]

To put the whole hire outside versus hire express perspective into perspective, here's the reality of the situation and AC is very much aware of this.

What is the liability for AC regarding Express New Hires? Footing the bill for replacement at express, and paying for the training at mainline.

What is the liability for AC regarding Outside New Hires? Footing the bill for replacement at express (due to attrition/disappointment), and paying for training at mainline.

Either way you look at it, the constant suggests to be that AC will be footing the bill at express no matter which direction they go. So they may as well keep the system fair, and make express the clear path way to AC.

Does this mean OTS won't get hired? No. But it does mean OTS is a pool that will be created for when express can't afford to lose staffing levels. So you really are picking apples versus oranges here in your career decision on where to go. Do you go to the other 705 carriers and secure a seniority number under decent WAWCON's and hope to get AC, or do you go to express and keep trying until you get on? Because AC will be footing the bill anyway. And there likely won't be any strategic upper "edge" to outplay Air Canada by going to the competition. Likely you're waiting longer from the competition, or you get lucky if you don't. Where at express, you WILL get the opportunity to interview which is a lot more than HOPING to get an interview.

So what do you value? Risk it today by going express, and hope to get to Air Canada. Or take it safe today, and grab a seniority number at WJ/TSC/SWG etc and hope to get to Air Canada. Constant? Hope. I'd say if you're younger, go express, if you're older, secure the seniority number.

Also, there is no pilot shortage at Air Canada. They have tons of applications from many people that they can train to standard. The shortage exists at express. The only way to staff express is through a clear way to AC. Otherwise AC will not only be footing the bill for training and replacement at express, they have to start offering more money, career, and working conditions to keep express staffed. And at some point it will just be cheaper to have all the flying done in house.

Likely having a clear pathway to AC is the cheapest solution. Anyone else disagree with this or have a different point of view that I'm not considering? I was pretty bitter about the process not very long ago, but I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel finally so I'm changing my view point a bit. Maybe it's naive of me, which I'd be open to constructive criticism regarding.

[gtanorth]

To put the whole hire outside versus hire express perspective into perspective, here's the reality of the situation and AC is very much aware of this.

What is the liability for AC regarding Express New Hires? Footing the bill for replacement at express, and paying for the training at mainline.

What is the liability for AC regarding Outside New Hires? Footing the bill for replacement at express (due to attrition/disappointment), and paying for training at mainline.

Either way you look at it, the constant suggests to be that AC will be footing the bill at express no matter which direction they go. So they may as well keep the system fair, and make express the clear path way to AC.

Does this mean OTS won't get hired? No. But it does mean OTS is a pool that will be created for when express can't afford to lose staffing levels. So you really are picking apples versus oranges here in your career decision on where to go. Do you go to the other 705 carriers and secure a seniority number under decent WAWCON's and hope to get AC, or do you go to express and keep trying until you get on? Because AC will be footing the bill anyway. And there likely won't be any strategic upper "edge" to outplay Air Canada by going to the competition. Likely you're waiting longer from the competition, or you get lucky if you don't. Where at express, you WILL get the opportunity to interview which is a lot more than HOPING to get an interview.

So what do you value? Risk it today by going express, and hope to get to Air Canada. Take it safe today, and take a seniority number, and hope to get to Air Canada. Constant? Hope. I'd say if you're younger, go express, if you're older, secure the seniority number.

Also, there is no pilot shortage at Air Canada. They have tons of applications from many people that they can train to standard. The shortage exists at express. The only way to staff express is through a clear way to AC. Otherwise AC will not only be footing the bill for training and replacement at express, they have to start offering more money, career, and working conditions to keep express staffed. Likely having a clear pathway to AC is the cheapest solution. Anyone else disagree with this or have a different point of view that I'm not considering? I was pretty bitter about the process not very long ago, but I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel finally so I'm changing my view point a bit. Maybe it's naive of me, which I'd be open to constructive criticism regarding.

That seems very accurate. The only unknown will be how often does the PMA twist and turn. Some form of the PML has been in place now for 3 -4 years so I suspect they will always have a program to funnel pilots through Express as that is 100% the better business decision.

[HansDietrich]

This feels like it was perfectly choreographed with the regional carriers. It's a win win for AC / Express (1, 2, 3 & 4). They force individuals to stay in low paying jobs for 2 years at the "potential" shot at a job with AC, where they will also pay you 50K a year to fly an Airbus. Eventually, things will get better, but in my opinion, once you reach this level (AC mainline) there shouldn't be any more "dues to be paid". For a 20+ something it may be worth it, but to anyone in their mid 30s, it's quite debatable.

If I had to give advice to anyone hoping for that shot at mainline, you better have:
1. A degree
2. ATPL
3. Significant experience
4. Speak French or a second language (huge bonus)

This of course will be easier to certain groups of individuals that fall into various categories.

Good luck everyone!

[AvifiskAlly]

This feels like it was perfectly choreographed with the regional carriers. It's a win win for AC / Express (1, 2, 3 & 4). They force individuals to stay in low paying jobs for 2 years at the "potential" shot at a job with AC, where they will also pay you 50K a year to fly an Airbus. Eventually, things will get better, but in my opinion, once you reach this level (AC mainline) there shouldn't be any more "dues to be paid". For a 20+ something it may be worth it, but to anyone in their mid 30s, it's quite debatable.

If I had to give advice to anyone hoping for that shot at mainline, you better have:
1. A degree
2. ATPL
3. Significant experience
4. Speak French or a second language (huge bonus)

This of course will be easier to certain groups of individuals that fall into various categories.

Good luck everyone!

Maybe for the older group but the target group is actually more like, good or bad about 50% of AC hires will follow that path. Another 30% will just have a later entry point into Express but only a 2 year stay there so the exit to AC is still at about 25 - 30 years old. 5% from the military 5% friends and family. The rest will fall into your criteria.


1: 3 year aviation diploma
2: Express with 250 - 1000 hrs
3: 3 years at Express
AC at 25, they get a pilot for 40 years

[HansDietrich]

I have a hard time following you. I'll have to read this again when I'm a little more sober. Beers with friends at noon does not help...

[AvifiskAlly]

This feels like it was perfectly choreographed with the regional carriers. It's a win win for AC / Express (1, 2, 3 & 4). They force individuals to stay in low paying jobs for 2 years at the "potential" shot at a job with AC, where they will also pay you 50K a year to fly an Airbus. Eventually, things will get better, but in my opinion, once you reach this level (AC mainline) there shouldn't be any more "dues to be paid". For a 20+ something it may be worth it, but to anyone in their mid 30s, it's quite debatable.

If I had to give advice to anyone hoping for that shot at mainline, you better have:
1. A degree
2. ATPL
3. Significant experience
4. Speak French or a second language (huge bonus)

This of course will be easier to certain groups of individuals that fall into various categories.

Good luck everyone!

Maybe for the older group but the target group is actually more like,
1: 3 year aviation diploma
2: Express with 250 - 1000 hrs
3: 3 years at Express
AC at 25, they get a pilot for 40 years


About 50% of AC hires will follow that path. Another 30% will just have a later entry point into Express but only a 2 year stay there so the exit to AC is still at about 25 - 30 years old. 5% from the military 5% friends and family. The rest will fall into your criteria.

[Oxi]

How exactly do you get feedback? Does a pilot apply, clicking applicable boxes and then what?

[Pilotin]

How exactly do you get feedback? Does a pilot apply, clicking applicable boxes and then what?

GGN put out a whole “guide to the PMA”, breaks down how the application process works. Looks like you fill out a profile in the portal, allows you to see what you’re lacking/ add stuff as you acquire more skills.

[TGale]

What it should have been in the first place came and went a LONG time ago...