CIRB Decision

[Boney]

Are the anti - ALPA posters on here the same guy?

Boney, NewCommercialPilot, squawk, rotten apple

As for Boney or whoever this person's current alias is,

Rouge does not involve a LOA. Pilots bid it for various reasons. One list, period. And that was forced on us FYI

One list and forced on us. Interesting.

Maybe that is where alpa should look for guidance in solving this. The one list works for Encore and the relationship seem to be working. Push for a one list with Swoop and maybe this may get everyone back to the table vs having the CIRB imposing something that could be less than the current contract.

Just wondering.

Ps. I’m anti union as I’ve had my fill of the crap they put out. This pilot group will get a wake up call and will wonder what happened.

[schnitzel2k3]

In the last month of flying, I have talked to a lot of pilots and not a single one has expressed even a passing interest in the LOAs being offered nor do they know of any of their friends who are. I am thinking that any who have considered taking this opportunity to screw over their peers are keeping pretty quiet about it because they know what they are doing is morally reprehensible.

Who in their right mind would express within the WS environment the desire to go to Swoop when they were internal? The verbal beatings they would likely take would best be avoided by nodding their head and when the timing is right zip over quietly.

I'm a little confused at everyone patting themselves on the back - wasn't the flying supposed to be done by WS pilots not OTS? That's what spurred 99% of the discussions in the last month regarding Swoop. Now I'm reading WS pilots will not crew Swoop 37s thanks to ALPA - and it was celebrated as a success (please correct me if I am wrong).

If you think they can't find enough OTS guys to crew the planes, the union is dreaming - and a blacklist isn't a real threat - lots of guys aren't interested in WS or AC - just left seats and money. Lots of companies fly 37s - it is one of the most issued type ratings.

I think I worked out that over the standard course of a Westjet pilots career - not including the extras - their average salary is equivalent to earning a very rough 95k a year after 10 years as FO (and that includes first year captain pay at yr 10). So if you could skip from year 2-3 straight to 97k plus, with similar working conditions - what difference does it make what colour tie you wear. You'll be unhappy wearing teal or you'll be unhappy wearing pink but being paid more.

Whatever injunction you guys are working on to stop the flying altogether unless its teal had better happen soon or wait for the mutiny.

S.

[Transonic]

This is part 1 of a 3 part series. Part 2 is negotiations and Part 3 is the ULP.

We've simply removed a large stack of chips from the company's negotiation position. They still have the OTS card, but that will come with a lot of pain. Maybe too much pain.

[Mach1]

I have flown with people who have expressed an interest in going to Swoop internally. They all have a few things in common. They all came from Encore. The only thing they see are 4 bars in their eyes and nothing else matters. They are really bad at math.

just left seats and money.

I'm going to break this down into it's two components:

Left seat:

If you HAVE to be a captain then you should never be one. You need some therapy and a bit of time out to learn how to relax a little. Good captains know how to play well with others. Being an FO teaches you how to be a good captain.

Money: How, exactly, is this more money?

Swoop Captain;
$103.57
10% ESPP
Per Diem $2.50/hour
Minimum monthly guarantee of 75 hours
Overtime triggered at 90 hours

WestJet FO (year 6);
$106.06
20% ESP
Per Diem $3.1942/hour (domestic)
Minimum monthly guarantee of 77.5 hours
Overtime triggered at 82.5 hours

The guy sitting in the right seat enjoying his life will out earn the Swoop captain, work 4 days less a month and look forward to year after year of pay gains that the Swoop guy will never see. I know math is tricky but the last time I checked, 106 is bigger than 103.

[schnitzel2k3]

just left seats and money.

I'm going to break this down into it's two components:

Left seat:

If you HAVE to be a captain then you should never be one. You need some therapy and a bit of time out to learn how to relax a little. Good captains know how to play well with others. Being an FO teaches you how to be a good captain.

Money: How, exactly, is this more money?

Swoop Captain;
$103.57
10% ESPP
Per Diem $2.50/hour
Minimum monthly guarantee of 75 hours
Overtime triggered at 90 hours

WestJet FO (year 6);
$106.06
20% ESP
Per Diem $3.1942/hour (domestic)
Minimum monthly guarantee of 77.5 hours
Overtime triggered at 82.5 hours

The guy sitting in the right seat enjoying his life will out earn the Swoop captain, work 4 days less a month and look forward to year after year of pay gains that the Swoop guy will never see. I know math is tricky but the last time I checked, 106 is bigger than 103.

I agree with your captain statement - but at the end of the day - salary trumps many things - and you don't earn much to start for the first 4 years anywhere airline wise - so I can see why people yearn for 4 bars if for nothing else but salary.

Now back to being confrontational, I didn't say year 6 did I. I spoke about an average salary over 10 years at Westjet that equated to around 95k (AVERAGE). Now that wasn't counting 6 years at Encore - and it included 1 yr at 10yr captain pay. If you count 6 years (or any number of years at Encore) it skews that value much lower.

First year captain at Swoop earns 97k to start, not including bonus. They have ESPP and WS travel priveledges - so for all intents and purposes - not terribly different. They likely will work more - which means their salary will be higher - likely closer to 110k (still pathetic wrt any other 737 gig). Short term gains - but lots of guys only look 2 steps forward and miss the bigger picture.

You will likely see guys in year 1/2 - possibly as far out as year 4 mainline running the economics and betting on a blacklist falling through. Guys at Encore don't have much to bring to Swoop yet - but they are running the economics too.

It's unfortunate how septic the aviation pool has become, bickering about shitty companies like this.

At the end of the day - I hope it doesn't terribly affect WS pilots, I hope guys are happy with their new roles, and that Swoop doesn't drag the entire industry in the mud.

S.

[tbaylx]

A bit disingenuous comparing a year 6 F/O to a year 1 captain at Swoop?

How bout looking at a 5 to -10 year time span. A level 1 captain at swoop and level 1 f/o at WestJet both starting tomorrow. I think those numbers may play out a bit different, not to mention by year 3 the Swoop captain is making $130 an hour.

It might not attract a year 6 F/O but it sure as hell looks a lot more attractive to an Encore guy or a year 1-4 WestJet F/O. If you are making better money and have better opportunities already then don't go, but there are plenty of guys out there not making what a WestJet year 6 F/O is making that are interested i'm sure.

[cjet]

One list and forced on us. Interesting.

Maybe that is where alpa should look for guidance in solving this. The one list works for Encore and the relationship seem to be working. Push for a one list with Swoop and maybe this may get everyone back to the table vs having the CIRB imposing something that could be less than the current contract.

Just wondering.

Ps. I’m anti union as I’ve had my fill of the crap they put out. This pilot group will get a wake up call and will wonder what happened.

Boney this is what ALPA and the WestJet pilots are fighting for. One list for all WestJet pilots flying WJ airplanes. You seem to be a little out of the loop. Come and join the WJ ALPA forum lots of great discussions going on.

Cjet

[Legacy]

I agree Mach 1. There tends to be a lot of people on here that have about 20% of the details. It's these people that think there is nothing wrong with going to swoop.

[Boney]

One list and forced on us. Interesting.

Maybe that is where alpa should look for guidance in solving this. The one list works for Encore and the relationship seem to be working. Push for a one list with Swoop and maybe this may get everyone back to the table vs having the CIRB imposing something that could be less than the current contract.

Just wondering.

Ps. I’m anti union as I’ve had my fill of the crap they put out. This pilot group will get a wake up call and will wonder what happened.

Boney this is what ALPA and the WestJet pilots are fighting for. One list for all WestJet pilots flying WJ airplanes. You seem to be a little out of the loop. Come and join the WJ ALPA forum lots of great discussions going on.

Cjet

We agree on a lot of things. I just don’t believe in alpa.

Cheers

[Mach1]

I took a pay cut to move to the airlines from charter world. Just like everyone else.

Should it be that way? No. But it is.
Was it pleasant? No.
Did it suck? Yes.
Did I survive it? Yes.
Did I ever look back? No. (I could sit around lamenting the past I cannot change, or I could have been bitter about it at the time, but I saw the long term gains)
How did that work out for me? I make 4 times what I made in charter world and increasing. I never would have made anywhere near this wage had I not sacrificed. So, I not only recovered my losses from taking that pay cut to move to an airline, I have come out so far ahead it is nearly miraculous.

It is an unpleasant reality that sometimes you have to take short term pain for a long term gain. I do think we should work towards fixing that reality... but it is not reality today. Just like pay in general. Am I really hard done by? No. That said, we should work towards higher wages because you never see an executive saying he's over paid, so I will take my cues from our leaders.

What's my point? Keep your eye on the long term gains. Don't cut your own throat for a dime today when you can have hundreds of dollars tomorrow.

[Transonic]

Year 1-4 FO? This is not Air Canada's flat 4 year pay scale. After 2 years, you make more than a year 1 Swoop Captain. That's where the patience resides in the above arguments. Regardless, this is all an exercise. The positions will be filled by WestJet pilots in or near seniority order.

[Mach1]

How bout looking at a 5 to -10 year time span. A level 1 captain at swoop and level 1 f/o at WestJet both starting tomorrow. I think those numbers may play out a bit different, not to mention by year 3 the Swoop captain is making $130 an hour.

It might not attract a year 6 F/O but it sure as hell looks a lot more attractive to an Encore guy or a year 1-4 WestJet F/O. If you are making better money and have better opportunities already then don't go, but there are plenty of guys out there not making what a WestJet year 6 F/O is making that are interested i'm sure.

Please feel free to post your math here.

If you work in-house, and if you think this is such a great opportunity, feel free to resign your current position and take that gamble. You know, if you want to work for less money than you could/should be earning due to your own lack of patients, don't call it an opportunity. Given that you will be used to whipsaw my wages, you should understand that I won't be keen on you eating your cake and having it too (in terms of being able to run home to mom via LOA and keeping your seniority).

Personally, I would much rather see Swoop wages equaling WestJet wages (which are higher) and those opportunities for upgrades going to in-house candidates. This would result in hiring for new first officers, who will make greater life time earnings.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

There is no way that a year 2 WJ FO makes more than a Swoop captain

[Ex DC10 Driver]

I am a year 4 F/O. T4 last year $131,000.00

[tbaylx]

I don't work in house, so I don't have your pay scales, and if I did I wouldn't' be able to take the opportunity anymore since that option is no longer available after the CIRB ruling. But as an outsider I can tell you what I'd pick if I was to apply, and it wouldn't be a mainline F/O making $50K.
I also don't blame others for looking for opportunities that work for them personally and taking them when they present themselves. I hope you guys can negotiate US level wages for yourselves and Encore and Swoop, but I sure don't blame anyone for taking opportunities that exist today vs potential ones in the future that may or may not be available to them. Bird in the hand and all that.

[DropTanks]

I don't work in house, so I don't have your pay scales, and if I did I wouldn't' be able to take the opportunity anymore since that option is no longer available after the CIRB ruling. But as an outsider I can tell you what I'd pick if I was to apply, and it wouldn't be a mainline F/O making $50K.
I also don't blame others for looking for opportunities that work for them personally and taking them when they present themselves. I hope you guys can negotiate US level wages for yourselves and Encore and Swoop, but I sure don't blame anyone for taking opportunities that exist today vs potential ones in the future that may or may not be available to them. Bird in the hand and all that.

$50k?! No no no sir. Year 2 was $85k with zero overtime and year 3 was $105k with about $5k of overtime. Year 4 should be $115k without overtime.

[Mach1]

and if I did I wouldn't' be able to take the opportunity anymore since that option is no longer available after the CIRB ruling.

The CIRB ruling would, in no way whatsoever, prevent you from working at Swoop. What it does is prevent you from taking a 2 year LOA, hold your position at WJ, go to work for Swoop and come back without losing any seniority or vacation. You always have the option of quitting your job and going to work for Swoop. But in doing so, you now lose your spot in line and if you come back, it's at the bottom of the list.... exactly like you quit to work for any other company.

It's not like the company is offering 2 year LOA's for me to go work in China or the Middle East and come back penalty free. So, if you have no idea what you are talking about or you have no bone in this dogfight, perhaps you should do a little self education before making inflammatory posts like they are fact. Try asking questions instead of making factually inaccurate statements.

[Mach1]

['97 Tercel]

[FICU]

A bit disingenuous comparing a year 6 F/O to a year 1 captain at Swoop?

You seem very vested in the Swoop discussions... moving on from SW?