Professionalism

[Impact]

Salary has nothing to do with acting professionally, and having a professional attitude. Appearance is only a (small?) part of that equation.

How you act and carry yourself, even after a 12-13 hr day, is part of what defines you as a professional.

[infiniteregulus]

I think it's an important factor to our job as there's a great deal of public trust in what we do. To act like you're in college, being loud and belligerent, (like much of, but not all, the CATSA frat), just looks terrible even if you're not a pilot. There's many times I'm even thinking of professional behaviour on my days off when interacting with someone that knows I'm a pilot. It's a manner of representing your best foot forward on behalf of your profession. A doctor who is a jerk outside of work....word gets around. An astronaut getting drunk in a bar...bye bye space walk. Football player abusing his girlfriend...public outcry. I'm sorry but I actually care about the image we present and when things like pay and respect from management are always being disputed, pilots must hold their end of the deal up too. Chicken or Egg -> Pay or Professional image hahaha.

[rudder]

If you are wearing the company issued uniform - whether on duty or off duty - you are required to follow the company appearance standards.

Want to relax like you are vacation? Take the uniform off. I have seen poor examples of professional appearance by crew members at both mainline and non-mainline carriers. However, I would call such cases the exception not the rule.

At the end of the day an appearance standard does not mean anything unless it is enforced. Perhaps some carriers take it more seriously than others. Personally I see no legitimate excuses for lack of compliance unless the employer is unable or unwilling to provide the requisite uniform components of reasonable quality. If you want to be treated like a professional you need to look like one and you need to act like one.

[Impact]

Infiniteregulus and rudder, spot on. I'd even go so far as to say that having the attitude of "pay me more, and then I'll start acting professionally" is an indicator that they're not only unprofessional, but have very little concept of what the word means (and most probably never will).

Which brings up a good question, for those of you using the "pay me more" angle. For clarity sake, at what salary will you finally start acting like a professional? $50K? $75K? $100K? $200K? I'm curious.

[fish4life]

I think the lack of professionalism can be directly tied to the pilot shortage thread. The guys who never gave an F or didn't care used to get weeded out of the industry long before they got to the airlines but now they are getting on so quick and everyone is hiring so much that anyone can fake it to get in for 6 months.

[digits_]

I'd even go so far as to say that having the attitude of "pay me more, and then I'll start acting professionally" is an indicator that they're not only unprofessional, but have very little concept of what the word means (and most probably never will).

I think you might not fully understand what it means:

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... ofessional

Code: Select all

Engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as an amateur.

Even the sloppy dressed pilots are still getting paid and safely flying the plane from A to B, and are thus professionals. Your appearance has more to do with marketing and windowdressing. It might definitely be important to the company, but flying in jeans or wearing ear plugs while waiting for your plane has nothing to do with being a "professional".

[infiniteregulus]

Tell that to anyone who showed up to any job in their underwear, a dirty stained wifebeater and sandals.... It is after all about getting the job done
Synonyms: businesslike, deft, polished
Regarding the behaviour:
the skill, good judgment, and polite behavior that is expected from a person who is trained to do a job well; the conduct, aims, or qualities that characterize or mark a profession or a professional person.

I'm not having a debate on the word. That's absurd. The subject matter is very clear.

[MedicineBuddha]

I think it's an important factor to our job as there's a great deal of public trust in what we do. To act like you're in college, being loud and belligerent, (like much of, but not all, the CATSA frat), just looks terrible even if you're not a pilot. There's many times I'm even thinking of professional behaviour on my days off when interacting with someone that knows I'm a pilot. It's a manner of representing your best foot forward on behalf of your profession. A doctor who is a jerk outside of work....word gets around. An astronaut getting drunk in a bar...bye bye space walk. Football player
abusing his girlfriend...public outcry. I'm sorry but I actually care about the image we present and when things like pay and respect from management are always being disputed, pilots must hold their end of the deal up too. Chicken or Egg -> Pay or Professional image hahaha.

A few things..

What does it mean to act as a pilot? How do pilots act specifically at the job vs out of the job? Do you keep this in mind when playing with your kids at the park? Hey, joking around with your kids at the park might be misconstrued as goofy and someone might think you are unable to handle the glamor of being a hot shot pilot!

I’ll tell my wife I need to act as more of a professional and she should act in the spirit of her profession as well.. I can already see where this will go.. ( insert middle finger)

I think you are looking for the terms “ dress and deportment” Also known as common sense??..

I don’t see the issue with listening to some music while sitting and waiting for a deadhead.
Maybe this is their pilots 6th leg or he/ she has had the day from hell and he/ she is just decompressing?

Here’s my take :

Have a clean uniform and be neatly groomed, don’t swear in the public eye and view yourself as an ambassador for the airline(s)

I don’t see listening to music as an impediment to that..?

I also don’t feel the need to take my job home with me regardless of amount paid. In return, I do my upmost to leave my home life / Any extraneous issues at home or in the hotel.
It’s a job.. it’s a ( feeble attempt) at a means to an end..I see no need to wear this on my sleeve.. I don’t think anyone in emergency services would do that nor would it be healthy.


Follow SOP’s and keep your technical knowledge up to par.

Beyond that, I’m a human with a life that exists outside of Aviation.

I also second the opinion that being paid below that of a Tim Hortons worker etc isn’t conducive to feeling appreciated and not being able to provide for yourself after accumulating several thousand hours might make a few people disgruntled.

I think it’s only human. Coming home and needing to have a second job stocking shelves doesn’t really lend itself to self pride. ( While others state how good you have it and they collect their pensions and wage that usurps yours.

At the end of the day, that’s not the flying public’s problem.

Again, even the barista at Starbucks can act professional and have a degree of dress and deportment.

But headphones and “ acting like a pilot” to friends etc outside of work seems a bit much..

Also, FYI, I come from a military background..

I see Aviation and the military as two different worlds..

[Impact]

I'd even go so far as to say that having the attitude of "pay me more, and then I'll start acting professionally" is an indicator that they're not only unprofessional, but have very little concept of what the word means (and most probably never will).

I think you might not fully understand what it means:

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... ofessional

Code: Select all

Engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as an amateur.

Even the sloppy dressed pilots are still getting paid and safely flying the plane from A to B, and are thus professionals. Your appearance has more to do with marketing and windowdressing. It might definitely be important to the company, but flying in jeans or wearing ear plugs while waiting for your plane has nothing to do with being a "professional".

Thanks. You've just proven my point. Some really don't understand the concept of acting professionally (or "Professionalism"), which is really what this thread is about. If the thread was called "Is flying an aircraft a profession or trade?", then I could see where you're going with your premise. But that's really not the case, is it?

I tendered a question regarding what salary it would take for someone to start acting like a professional. What's your take?

As well, feel free to google for something along the lines of "attributes of a professional" or "traits or professionalism".....

Let us know what you find.

[mbav8r]

Infiniteregulus and rudder, spot on. I'd even go so far as to say that having the attitude of "pay me more, and then I'll start acting professionally" is an indicator that they're not only unprofessional, but have very little concept of what the word means (and most probably never will).

Which brings up a good question, for those of you using the "pay me more" angle. For clarity sake, at what salary will you finally start acting like a professional? $50K? $75K? $100K? $200K? I'm curious.

I'm glad to see this thread. Even if it's been discussed multiple times in the past, it absolutely needs to be discussed on a regular basis.

One thing of note however (and this is very subjective), is that one can act very professionally even if one is not part of a "profession". Someone referred to a janitor in an earlier comment, to which I say I've seen people act in the most utmost professional manner even in what may be looked upon as the lowliest job.

People who may be part of a so-called "profession" may act unprofessionally, as witnessed by this whole AMEX lounge pass gong-show. Things like that do absolutely nothing to enhance the image of who we are, or who we should strive to be. Personally, I no longer consider piloting to be a "profession". I used to, but those days are long gone.

I’m curious impact, where do you rate being a Scab on the ole professionalism meter, I know where I put it!

impact wrote in another thread how he plans to cross the picket line if it comes to that,
As for crossing the picket line, I'm fairly confident that in YYC, there'll be a higher percentage of both Capts AND F/Os that will cross, compared to YYZ and YVR. I'll be one of those that cross the picket line. I won't be doing it with a skip in my step however. I shake my head at the situation in which we find ourselves in. What it boils down to is this: I work for WJ, not ALPA. Some of you may hate that little fact.

[mbav8r]

To the original issue, how in the world is listening to music on your own time unprofessional? I don’t do it myself but certainly don’t take issue with it, are you supposed to sit for fours in an airport without a proper crew area and what, stare at the wall.
Some people relax with music and if they are not on duty, by that I don’t mean waiting for a DH, I’m talking about preflight duties then who cares.
Do you take issue with a pilot listening to music on their DH flight or is it just the type of headphones they wear that bothers you.
I find the beards all the pilots, mainline and express have been sporting belong in the unprofessional category but I’m sure you’ll find plenty who don’t.

[Impact]

mbav8r, I'm fairly sure what your opinion is on the matter. Read the second last sentence of that last quote again. "I work for WJ, not ALPA" That should tell you something. The company hired me to do a job, and they pay me fairly for doing so. They have not treated me poorly (as a matter of fact, I've been treated extremely well), hence I feel no need to break my end of the deal, despite what other perpetually unsatisfied pilots may have me do.

It's what one would call "integrity", and it's a fairly large part of professionalism.

[mbav8r]

That assumes the corporation you are defending has acted with integrity, which could easily be argued they have not.

[Rightseatdriver]

Anyone else start noticing a trend in uniformed crew wearing big unsightly music headphones at the gates while waiting for their flights (operating or commuting) with feet up in the air like some a punk. It looks TERRIBLE! And don't get me started on the bright red backpacks

Or all those westjet pilots grooming the planes

+1

You can't get more unprofessional looking than a pilot wearing blue latex gloves taking snotty tissues out of a seat back.

Absolutely correct. The other day I flew as a pax on an encore flight and by the time we had landed, taxied into the gate and waited to deplane, the co pilot already had his latex gloves on waiting to go to work. I honestly felt embarrassed for him. It's not a good look. Atleast wait till the plane deboards if you want to be that eager. You're a pilot, not a janitor.

[infiniteregulus]

I argue not the listening of music, it was in fact the giant unsightly headphones, mixed with the slugged over, feet in the air composure he was sitting. AND THEN, whilst boarding was underway, proceeded to strut over like he owned the place, to interrupt the busy agent for his non-rev travel. If someone wants to listen to music, absolutely have at er. But at least sit up straight with pride.

[Impact]

That assumes the corporation you are defending has acted with integrity, which could easily be argued they have not.

.....and it could be easily argued that they have.

But then again, that argument is for the WJ page, isn't it?

[ahramin]

I agree that pay should have nothing to do with professionalism. I never had the opportunity others here had to work for shit wages but some jobs paid much more than others and it never affected my deportment.

However, this nonsense of listing your personal pet peeves and decrying it as a loss of professionalism is ... nonsense. Looking a certain way isn't professionalism, it's trying to convince people of something of questionable value through your appearance. Real professionalism in flying does not have anything to do with physical appearance. Here's a little list for those dinosaurs on here who are having trouble moving out of the 60s:

- Do you have a positive attitude towards your peers, your flight attendants, your gate agents, your maintenance staff, your ground crew, and your passengers? Are you polite to all of them? Even when you're The Captain and they aren't doing things the way you want?

- Do you show up for work rested and fit? At my airline I have noticed that the same guys freaking out about coloured socks are often the ones that can be found drunk the night before a flight.

- Do you know your SOPs, aircraft systems, memory items, operations manual? Not just what you found out what the route check guys are asking for one week a year, but everything you need all the time? If you have had some time off and aren't current, do you spend an hour or two reviewing before your first flight back on the line?

- Do you follow the SOPs, even when it doesn't suit your style or isn't the easiest way of doing something?

- Do you try your best to lead your crew in a manner that makes them feel empowered to speak up when something is wrong? Even when the something that is wrong is you? Or are you The Captain who makes sure everyone knows that you are in charge and know what you are doing?

Or are you too busy trying to project an image that you think looks professional when you have more important things you should be worried about? Average experience in Canadian airlines is plummeting, we really need to step up to the plate with our training and mentoring, and you guys are worried about headphones, hats, and hairdos. How is that going to help prevent the next fatal accident?

[digits_]

Thanks. You've just proven my point. Some really don't understand the concept of acting professionally (or "Professionalism"), which is really what this thread is about. If the thread was called "Is flying an aircraft a profession or trade?", then I could see where you're going with your premise. But that's really not the case, is it?

Since we are discussing professionalism, I think it is extremely important to look at the meaning of the word we are actually discussing. You yourself claimed people don't know what professionalism means, yet you are the one extending the definition to things you deem important.

So if we want to discuss the aspect of appearance and uniform etc, it would be more accurate to discuss professional decorum, as the flying skills or the fact that the pilots are getting paid is not under discussion.

I tendered a question regarding what salary it would take for someone to start acting like a professional. What's your take?

I'd say it would be normal to see quality differences in products/services that have more than a 10% price difference. If you expect the top of the line behaviour at all times, then pay the salary top of the line people get. Take a look at the Qatar style guides online, they are pretty impressive. If you want to compare to a more local market, the same salary for an FO at jazz as an FO at Air Canada with a smilar job profile would make sense.

As well, feel free to google for something along the lines of "attributes of a professional" or "traits or professionalism".....

Let us know what you find.

Here you go, first result:
https://employmentnorth.com/top-10-qual ... oking-for/

The way you dress is not in the top 10.

It's funny how people on AvCanada on the one hand praise the experienced bush pilot with good flying skills and lots of experience -and thank god, no degree - who goes to the airlines after many years, yet on the other hand when said people are displaying some of the bush pilot attitudes (clothing doesn't matter, listening to music while waiting, relaxed posture, ...) in the other aspects of their job, they aren't professionals.

It seems is extremely hard to be a pilot accepted by AvCanada.

[tbayav8er]

Gotta go to Java U in YUL. Avoid Tim's at all cost!

This thread is a bit over the top. It's not a military we work for. After finishing a long hard pairing and spending time in busy airports where it's a 20 min wait to get a coffee at tims (in Yul at least) it's nice to zone out a bit. If they want to hide us don't deadhead me around everyday or give me 4 hour sits between flights. I agree some people don't care about image as much and need to be reminded once in a while. Yeah yeah the express guys are a joke is what you think. F U buddy. If that bothers you, you seriously need to get a life. Get laid maybe rather than whining here. It's annoying. People like you make this site hard to enjoy rather than learn anything.
PROFFESSIONALISM !!! Good topic you moron.

[sstaurus]

I try to set a good example for the crew.. I feel like sometimes that's all you can do these days given how young some crew are, especially cabin crew who may be on their first job from high school. But you can only nit pick so much and need to pick your battles... god the cell phones are the worst and drive me nuts. Can't you stay off the phone for 5 freakin minutes while the passengers are around?? Brake set, time to check instagram! Okay old man rant over...

Other days it feels like what's the point given that half of the pax are in flip flops or 'Juicy' sweatpants and won't look you in the eye when they get off the plane