Union at Sky

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Cavalier44
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by Cavalier44 »

All Sky Regional pilots should be aware, if they aren’t already, that there has been a working group of senior pilots who have been meeting with upper management on the topic of “pilot retention”. The main product of this is the extra two years that’s been added onto the Captain pay scale in order to bring it up to a 10-year scale.

While these senior pilots are meeting with management to get more money for themselves over the next few years, absolutely nothing has been done to stem the tide of 1st/2nd/3rd year Captains who have been leaving for Sunwing, Transat, China, Swoop, etc., to say nothing of Mainline. The reality is that adding an extra two years on to the Captain scale is going to do nothing to convince me, as a 1st year Captain, to spend the rest of my career at Sky Regional.

The main reason that pilots here are leaving is a lack of money, plain and simple. Sky Regional is a “regional” airline in name only, we’re operating many sectors over 3, even 4 hours length, flying 76 passenger jets on routes such as YUL-DEN which cross most of North America, and we’re doing it for a little over 50% of what a 1st-year Embraer 190 Captain makes at mainline. We should be fighting to increase pay and working conditions at all levels, not just for a few select guys at the top.

The mass email quoted above from one of our senior training captains is the perfect example of the additude that I’m talking about - these guys would much rather deal with management one on one than have an elected body that reflects the interests of all the pilots at this company.

I don’t believe that a group of unelected senior pilots should be allowed to meet with management to improve their own working conditions when their interests don’t necessarily reflect the interests of the rest of the pilots at this company. I’d much rather have formal representation through an organization such as ALPA in order to present a unified voice for all Sky Regional pilots.
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Air.Field
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by Air.Field »

When I interviewed there years ago and asked about yos increase, they told me they didn't want guys sticking around in the left seat for more than a few years to keep costs low.
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LGHeyyy
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by LGHeyyy »

The YOS on the new 10 year scale is about a buck a year.
If they are to stave off a union they need to address a number of things relating to working conditions. Immediately and fully.
Not the least of it the low pay for capts. Also, 11 Sdos aren't enough when there are zero grey days anymore. 8 sick days is too low in an industry that is supposed to emphasize personal wellness and performance at work.
Most guys are also getting 6 standby days a months and getting the minimum 2 hour callout (usually less) on every one. It's like having a part-time medevac job!
Some sort of commuting agreement and protection would be nice. They have to accept their pilots are coming from all over Canada.
I understand they're understaffed right now, but while that isn't the pilots' problem, they're the ones getting the shaft because of it. They keep being told "Just hang on, it'll get better." Meanwhile scheduling has actually gotten worse recently as staffing levels are perpetually too low.

The company has been making baby steps to improve conditions, and they have some great aspects (FO salary, vacation weeks, great pilot group, great hotels, no pairings longer than 3 days) but I think it's just been too little, too late when it comes to the exhausting day-to-day.

If all the express carriers are on the same page, then there can be a unified increase... until someone else materializes of course....

I don't get it. Even electricians have a "Brotherhood". But not us.
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PSL
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by PSL »

LGHeyyy wrote: Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:11 am They keep being told "Just hang on, it'll get better." Meanwhile scheduling has actually gotten worse recently as staffing levels are perpetually too low.

The company has been making baby steps to improve conditions, and they have some great aspects (FO salary, vacation weeks, great pilot group, great hotels, no pairings longer than 3 days)
Great Hotels? Really? You mean PHL is a great hotel? You mean EWR is a fantastic hotel? The hotels are cheap and close to the airport and often in neighbourhoods where this is little to actually do other than get a bite to eat.

Vacation weeks? The company has been going against there own Terms of Employment by changing the way they do vacation weeks just because. It actually goes to prove the point that they can and will change the TOE at their own convenience.

The company has a bottom line and its how Russ chooses to run things. Sky is the new GGN, keep it lean and the costs will stay low. AC wants Sky to be a stepping stone to AC, as such, Sky will run it that way. Frankly, there are a lot more problems than go to be shown on this forum right now.

When the ex-Chief Pilot looks at you and says, "I don't know why we don't have a union here yet, this place really needs one," it certainly makes you think about what's going on.
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gravelpapi
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by gravelpapi »

Really lol?? Are you expecting GGN, Jazz and SRA pilots to be at the Riz Carlton hotel lol? FYI Jazz, GGN and SRA pilots are in the same type of hotels and are all in the same big boat ....except Jazz and GGN are unionized..... unionization at GGN and Jazz has done nothing really other than lower pay scale....lower pay. No company is perfect.
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Last edited by gravelpapi on Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
LGHeyyy
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by LGHeyyy »

I have to agree. There are some realities of regional flying. Also, the shorter the shittle the better. We aren't hanging out in Brussels for 3 days. Anyhow, the hotels are the least of the concerns.

Look, the airline is a business, can't fault Russ for running it as such. What's going to bite him in the ass is the fact that he'll have no captains in a few years, given the available pool. They will still be able to hire FO's by just dropping requirements, but all that does is keep the right seat occupied longer as 500 hours gradually turns into 3000. I strongly doubt the upgrade requirements will drop to 1500 hours. They have to make some serious changes now to keep capts longer than 2 years or they won't have an airline at all.
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gravelpapi
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by gravelpapi »

You hit it on the nail LGHeyyy. The salary of the Captains needs to go up to keep a good roster. The FO's are making more as compared to their FO Jazz and GGN counter parts making +$50 per credit hr (75 hr gaur. per month) + USA per diem flying and more block on AVG 78-83 hrs... yes they fly more thats just how it is) most making 50K their first year.They won't drop the requirements down to 1500 TT + ATPL for Captains... thats not even happening in the States and they have it worst but are getting paid more. SRA has the biggest aircraft of the regionals and that comes with slightly higher min requirements due to insurance and type of aircraft. Time will tell.
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fish4life
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by fish4life »

I’ve heard of sub 2000hr RJ captains at Jazz why would Sky regional be immune? The only reason why the states doesn’t have it is the law states a min of 1500hr for an FO so CPT’s will naturally have more
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mbav8r
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by mbav8r »

gravelpapi wrote: Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:15 pm Really lol?? Are you expecting GGN, Jazz and SRA pilots to be at the Riz Carlton hotel lol? FYI Jazz, GGN and SRA pilots are in the same type of hotels and are all in the same big boat ....except Jazz and GGN are unionized..... unionization at GGN and Jazz has done nothing really other than lower pay scale....lower pay. No company is perfect.
Umm, no. Jazz pilots are in 4 star or better and it has to meet certain criteria for access to food as well as security.
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mbav8r
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by mbav8r »

gravelpapi wrote: Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:36 am You hit it on the nail LGHeyyy. The salary of the Captains needs to go up to keep a good roster. The FO's are making more as compared to their FO Jazz and GGN counter parts making +$50 per credit hr (75 hr gaur. per month) + USA per diem flying and more block on AVG 78-83 hrs... yes they fly more thats just how it is) most making 50K their first year.They won't drop the requirements down to 1500 TT + ATPL for Captains... thats not even happening in the States and they have it worst but are getting paid more. SRA has the biggest aircraft of the regionals and that comes with slightly higher min requirements due to insurance and type of aircraft. Time will tell.
This falls under the category mine is bigger and faster with more range than yours, you’ll note the CRJ 900 is 16 feet longer than the E175.
Manufacturer Canadair
Engines 2 GE CF34-8C5 Turbofans
Cruise Speed 882 km/h (548 mi/h)
Range 2778 km (1726 m)
Cruise Altitude 10668 m (35000 ft )
Cargo Capacity 2134 kgs (4705 lbs)
Fuel Capacity 10977 l (2900 USg)
Length of Aircraft 36.4 m (119 ft 5 in)
Wing Span 24.9 m (81 ft 8 in)
Height 7.57 m (24 ft 10 in)

Manufacturer Embraer
Engines CF34-8E5A1
Cruise Speed 811 km/h (504 mi/h)
Range 2413 km (1499 m)
Cruise Altitude 10668 m (35000 ft )
Cargo Capacity 400 kgs (882 lbs)
Fuel Capacity 11677 l (3085 USg)
Length of Aircraft 31.68 m (103 ft 11 in)
Wing Span 26 m (85 ft 3 in)
Height 9.86 m (32 ft 4 in)
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mbav8r
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by mbav8r »

gravelpapi wrote: Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:15 pm Really lol?? Are you expecting GGN, Jazz and SRA pilots to be at the Riz Carlton hotel lol? FYI Jazz, GGN and SRA pilots are in the same type of hotels and are all in the same big boat ....except Jazz and GGN are unionized..... unionization at GGN and Jazz has done nothing really other than lower pay scale....lower pay. No company is perfect.
Gotta love the anti union posters, the union didn’t cause lower pay, the fact the pilots like you chose to work for a union busting company caused lower wages!
You know the old saying, if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem, that would be you there gravelpapi, in case you were too dense to figure it out.
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HansDietrich
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by HansDietrich »

I think Jazz pilots should be the last to boast about how great a union is. ALPA or no ALPA we all have to deal with crap wages. I'm sorry, but when I was at Jazz, I saw very little value in the union. It's also fair to point out that I had very little interaction with ALPA, outside the "Meet and greet" dinner. 39K a year is garbage and ALPA should be ashamed of itself. Also Jazz pilots that voted these horrendous terms should be ashamed of themselves. I've spoken with many. They only cared about two things:

- Group 1: "This contract will take me to retirement"
- Group 2: "I'm going to Mainline, so who cares?"

So, let's not jump on SKY or GGN for doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING JAZZ DID! Accept crap wages and working conditions (by comparison to previous times). We're all equally guilty and you know who wins? Mr. Rovinescu. I bet he has a nice house and a fat paycheck. Life's good for him. The man knows how to run a business with stiff competition. Too bad most of us airline employees ended up with "McJobs".

Back to the union topic... there should be no need for a union if management is REASONABLE with its workers. Of course, look at WestJet... how long did that last? 23 years?

I think the only way to save our industry and jobs is if we're united and that starts with Air Canada pilots. If they stop looking down on regional guys (Jazz, SKY) and Jazz pilots stop looking down on GGN guys etc etc we'd be better off. This industry may handle Jazz or Sky or GGN going on strike, but they can't handle all the pilots at AC, WJ, Encore, Jazz, Sky, GGN going on strike. It would paralyze the country.

Utopian dreams? Maybe... but it's the only solution I could possible think of. When we work together as a (Canadian pilots) group, instead of trying to #$*# each other over.

Hans...
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mbav8r
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by mbav8r »

HansDietrich wrote: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:49 pm I think Jazz pilots should be the last to boast about how great a union is. ALPA or no ALPA we all have to deal with crap wages. I'm sorry, but when I was at Jazz, I saw very little value in the union. It's also fair to point out that I had very little interaction with ALPA, outside the "Meet and greet" dinner. 39K a year is garbage and ALPA should be ashamed of itself. Also Jazz pilots that voted these horrendous terms should be ashamed of themselves. I've spoken with many. They only cared about two things:

- Group 1: "This contract will take me to retirement"
- Group 2: "I'm going to Mainline, so who cares?"

So, let's not jump on SKY or GGN for doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING JAZZ DID! Accept crap wages and working conditions (by comparison to previous times). We're all equally guilty and you know who wins? Mr. Rovinescu. I bet he has a nice house and a fat paycheck. Life's good for him. The man knows how to run a business with stiff competition. Too bad most of us airline employees ended up with "McJobs".

Back to the union topic... there should be no need for a union if management is REASONABLE with its workers. Of course, look at WestJet... how long did that last? 23 years?

I think the only way to save our industry and jobs is if we're united and that starts with Air Canada pilots. If they stop looking down on regional guys (Jazz, SKY) and Jazz pilots stop looking down on GGN guys etc etc we'd be better off. This industry may handle Jazz or Sky or GGN going on strike, but they can't handle all the pilots at AC, WJ, Encore, Jazz, Sky, GGN going on strike. It would paralyze the country.

Utopian dreams? Maybe... but it's the only solution I could possible think of. When we work together as a (Canadian pilots) group, instead of trying to #$*# each other over.

Hans...
Ok Hans, once again thank you for your choice of leaving Jazz, it does two things.
1. Removes a cancerous attitude from our ranks.
2. Sends a message to management that they need to do better.(screening)
Next, I know this has been explained to you before, no contract no fn jobs, we would all be working for SR at their rates so yah I said yes.
There was a third category of Jazz pilots by the way and I believe the biggest group.
Group 3. If pilots refuse to come, wages will go up.
So thank you for perpetuating the problem and supporting the lower wages, I suppose you’re applying to swoop right now given your lack of integrity.
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HansDietrich
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by HansDietrich »

mbav8r wrote: Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:10 pm
HansDietrich wrote: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:49 pm I think Jazz pilots should be the last to boast about how great a union is. ALPA or no ALPA we all have to deal with crap wages. I'm sorry, but when I was at Jazz, I saw very little value in the union. It's also fair to point out that I had very little interaction with ALPA, outside the "Meet and greet" dinner. 39K a year is garbage and ALPA should be ashamed of itself. Also Jazz pilots that voted these horrendous terms should be ashamed of themselves. I've spoken with many. They only cared about two things:

- Group 1: "This contract will take me to retirement"
- Group 2: "I'm going to Mainline, so who cares?"

So, let's not jump on SKY or GGN for doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING JAZZ DID! Accept crap wages and working conditions (by comparison to previous times). We're all equally guilty and you know who wins? Mr. Rovinescu. I bet he has a nice house and a fat paycheck. Life's good for him. The man knows how to run a business with stiff competition. Too bad most of us airline employees ended up with "McJobs".

Back to the union topic... there should be no need for a union if management is REASONABLE with its workers. Of course, look at WestJet... how long did that last? 23 years?

I think the only way to save our industry and jobs is if we're united and that starts with Air Canada pilots. If they stop looking down on regional guys (Jazz, SKY) and Jazz pilots stop looking down on GGN guys etc etc we'd be better off. This industry may handle Jazz or Sky or GGN going on strike, but they can't handle all the pilots at AC, WJ, Encore, Jazz, Sky, GGN going on strike. It would paralyze the country.

Utopian dreams? Maybe... but it's the only solution I could possible think of. When we work together as a (Canadian pilots) group, instead of trying to #$*# each other over.

Hans...
Ok Hans, once again thank you for your choice of leaving Jazz, it does two things.
1. Removes a cancerous attitude from our ranks.
2. Sends a message to management that they need to do better.(screening)
Next, I know this has been explained to you before, no contract no fn jobs, we would all be working for SR at their rates so yah I said yes.
There was a third category of Jazz pilots by the way and I believe the biggest group.
Group 3. If pilots refuse to come, wages will go up.
So thank you for perpetuating the problem and supporting the lower wages, I suppose you’re applying to swoop right now given your lack of integrity.
Ah, of course. "mbav8r" had to comment on my post. What do you mean "their rates"? The rate where they pay their pilots $10 more per credit hour than Jazz does? Buddy, has the cold in MB gotten to your head? I'm not defending Sky or GGN. I think you need to read what I wrote a few more times. How have I perpetuated the problem? I left Jazz for a corporate job that pays me way more than Jazz did (minus the travel benefits). If anything, me quitting should send a message to management that they need to offer better conditions; overall, not just money. You won't see me at Sky or GGN or Swoop. Your comments are worthy of an "internet troll".
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mbav8r
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by mbav8r »

I responded to a post of yours which was a response to my post, now that that’s covered, time for a history lesson.
When SR started, their wages in both seats were less than Jazz, Captain was significantly lower, then along came GGN and lowered the bar even further. They raise the wages after the fact to attract pilots and then boast how it’s higher than Jazz, then fear monger the pilots, telling them if it goes too high they won’t be the answer anymore, sound about right. Keep on defending that.
GGN was unionized at the time of the RJ however the unionized pilots voted NO and their president went behind closed doors and signed the agreement, he is now at AC.
As for you personally, did you knowingly apply to Jazz and accept a job? Would you still be at Jazz if you weren’t hired at the corporate job?
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HansDietrich
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by HansDietrich »

mbav8r wrote: Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:55 pm I responded to a post of yours which was a response to my post, now that that’s covered, time for a history lesson.
When SR started, their wages in both seats were less than Jazz, Captain was significantly lower, then along came GGN and lowered the bar even further. They raise the wages after the fact to attract pilots and then boast how it’s higher than Jazz, then fear monger the pilots, telling them if it goes too high they won’t be the answer anymore, sound about right. Keep on defending that.
GGN was unionized at the time of the RJ however the unionized pilots voted NO and their president went behind closed doors and signed the agreement, he is now at AC.
As for you personally, did you knowingly apply to Jazz and accept a job? Would you still be at Jazz if you weren’t hired at the corporate job?
I am not sure why we're making this about Jazz or about ME. My comments here have to do with the fact that I personally don't see the value in a union as much as I used to. ALPA is the best example where a powerful UNION seems to be more interested in getting "a contract" than actually serving its members in a meaningful way. Yes, ALPA can only do so much, I have been "educated" on that topic, right here on AvCanada, and it's the reps / members that have the final say in a contract or agreement. Sky Regional can be a good place to work at, if all you care about is the "Stepping Stone" type of company. Facts are facts: You get more money at Sky and you fly better planes. I would also argue that you could get a better schedule as a "junior pilot".

Yes, the race to the bottom is there and it makes very little difference if you're at Regional 1, Regional 2 or Regional 3... Pick your company.

FOR THE RECORD: I AM A STRONG BELIEVER THAT NO REGIONAL AIRLINE SHOULD BE A "STEPPING STONE". IT'S A SHAME IT GOT TO THAT POINT

(P.S. Would I be at Jazz if I would not have been hired at my current corporate job? Of course! I have bills to pay and kids to take care of. I didn't hate Jazz, regardless of what people think. I went there because I thought it would be something else: the "old Jazz", but I found out it wasn't and I started looking elsewhere. I applied at a number of places before accepting this job, one that could still let me live just outside the GTA, while offering enough money to afford a decent lifestyle. Is it perfect? No job is, and so far I'm happier, but don't for a moment think that I'm not bitter about having to quit Jazz. I didn't want to...)
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by confusedalot »

A little off topic but I am perplexed at the notion that Jazz is a stepping stone outfit. I started as a dash 8 direct entry at one of the Jazz precursors in 1988 and left in 1992, and I had a huge problem making my mind up about actually leaving, I was giving up alot. Had I not left, I would have ended up within the very top of the seniority ranks by now making a very respectable income with a pretty good and solid bank account on top of fully paid property, hey maybe even a boat!. The guys I know who stayed and who I used to meet in the terminal building every once in a while appear to confirm my view, we had some pretty good discussions about it.

Some who left found success, mostly overseas and far from home, and some did not. In my case, all that happened was a stumble from one bankrupt canadian big jet operator to another, it's always the same recycled pop cans that end up in the same places so to speak. I did OK at best, but I would be better off had I stayed. And of all things, ended up at....Skyregional, not by choice, by necessity.

I perceive Jazz to be a potential career operator, someone tell me why I am wrong.
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by HansDietrich »

confusedalot wrote: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:09 pm A little off topic but I am perplexed at the notion that Jazz is a stepping stone outfit. I started as a dash 8 direct entry at one of the Jazz precursors in 1988 and left in 1992, and I had a huge problem making my mind up about actually leaving, I was giving up alot. Had I not left, I would have ended up within the very top of the seniority ranks by now making a very respectable income with a pretty good and solid bank account on top of fully paid property, hey maybe even a boat!. The guys I know who stayed and who I used to meet in the terminal building every once in a while appear to confirm my view, we had some pretty good discussions about it.

Some who left found success, mostly overseas and far from home, and some did not. In my case, all that happened was a stumble from one bankrupt canadian big jet operator to another, it's always the same recycled pop cans that end up in the same places so to speak. I did OK at best, but I would be better off had I stayed. And of all things, ended up at....Skyregional, not by choice, by necessity.

I perceive Jazz to be a potential career operator, someone tell me why I am wrong.
You're both right and wrong. You're RIGHT in the sense that if you would've stuck it out at Jazz, you would have been on a different pay scale / contract / pension / benefits than the new hires. The way Jazz is now, it's two separate companies. The "A" scale and the "B" scale. The "old guys" there have it pretty sweet. Good pay, good pension, good schedule...

And absolutely, the goal of AC was to make the regionals a stepping stone. The max pay at Jazz is what? 150K a year? It used to be a lot more. A captain at Jazz personally told me he makes close to 200K a year. Was he lying? I believed him, even if he was.
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by mbav8r »

Confused, the top pay at Jazz is exactly the same, exactly to the penny for all Jazz Pilots. The new contract added 3 years to the bottom, so it now takes 3 years to get to what used to be year 1 but the top of scale is the same. The next change is the DC pension for new hires and no years of service for left seat pay the rest of the contract is the same but you know kids these days, they want everything right fucking now and it the old guys fault they can’t have it. Upgrades in under 2 years isn’t enough for some apparently.
Hans, the discussion about Jazz is appropriate here as the fact that SR has no union is directly related to why you weren’t happy at Jazz, not in a round about way Hans, directly. The top pay did not used to be more, there has been no cut in pay for at least 20 years, so as for used to make more, no pilot was making 200k without significant OT. Why do you feel the need to exaggerate?
Pay/pension/YOS toward captain are the only changes, the rest of the contract including benefits is the same, as for schedule, my 12 years only gets me reserve and not even the days I want, you know what seniority is don’t you, the longer you stay the better things get or so I’m told
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Re: Union at Sky

Post by DanWEC »

I've been on all sides of labour and management, in both union and non-union shops.
Many unions, including ALPA, recruit based on basic sales and propaganda tactics. This targets the workers with the grudges, regardless of their validity.

It's great to beleive in something, but by reading the ALPA recruitment page, it reeks of anti-managment propaganda, and hits soft spots like airport security- but most people know ALPA can't do a damn thing about that. Hm.

A union should be a great thing for workers, but unfortunately their current aim is to cause a divisive culture between labour and management. Thing is, if they didn't have this angle, they'd be more respected.

Do I think Sky needs a Union? Tough call.
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