What is the Average Time to Upgrade from Express to Air Canada Mainline?

[JackRoy02]

Hello all,

I feel this question is better posted here than in one of the express forums, as I’m sure many of you have been through the PML process. To give an example, someone with 1500 hours and a 4 year degree gets on with Jazz as a first officer on the Q400 (if fleet type matters.) what would be a reasonable estimate on how long it would take to go from new hire at Jazz, to new hire at AC?

Hopefully my question is direct enough, thanks in advance for the responses.

Jack

[Sharklasers]

Define average.
Some people never go captain, lots of guys are perfectly happy to sit right seat 777 for 25 years and then go wide body captain. Some people bid captain on the emb in the first 6 months on property.
The bus is sitting at about 2 years until you can hold it on paper.


EDIT: I did not read the question and don't know the answer...

[Boreas]

Define average.
Some people never go captain, lots of guys are perfectly happy to sit right seat 777 for 25 years and then go wide body captain. Some people bid captain on the emb in the first 6 months on property.
The bus is sitting at about 2 years until you can hold it on paper.


EDIT: I did not read the question and don't know the answer...

Starting to see why people say getting to mainline is a lottery...

[fixnfly]

I know a couple friends at Jazz that have gone to mainline in around 3 years. I've heard the wait time is getting shorter though.

[PostmasterGeneral]

You’re implying that AC is an “upgrade” from Jazz? I guess in terms of pay after 25 years..

[momnosam7]

Hello all,

I feel this question is better posted here than in one of the express forums, as I’m sure many of you have been through the PML process. To give an example, someone with 1500 hours and a 4 year degree gets on with Jazz as a first officer on the Q400 (if fleet type matters.) what would be a reasonable estimate on how long it would take to go from new hire at Jazz, to new hire at AC?

Hopefully my question is direct enough, thanks in advance for the responses.

Jack

The PMA states that preference is given to pilots that have been with their current employer for 2 years. The actual speed of moving to AC is much more dependent on your qualifications amongst you fellow Express career applicants. Each Express moves pilots at a different pace with Sky being the slowest and Georgian being the fastest but not much more than Jazz, but the PMA just changed from being a seniority based program to a qualification based program so that old data is pretty useless now.

In your case with a 4 year degree and 1500 hrs you should move through in the 2 year timeframe if the industry continues to move and you pass the HR part of the process. That of course assumes your degree is in something tangible and reputable.

If you can get your hands on the document Air Georgian put out to its pilots you really should, even if you have no intention of working there. It applies to all Express and they have done an amazing job at laying out the process an the things you can do to move quicker through the process. It really is worth getting your hands on.

[momnosam7]

Hello all,

I feel this question is better posted here than in one of the express forums, as I’m sure many of you have been through the PML process. To give an example, someone with 1500 hours and a 4 year degree gets on with Jazz as a first officer on the Q400 (if fleet type matters.) what would be a reasonable estimate on how long it would take to go from new hire at Jazz, to new hire at AC?

Hopefully my question is direct enough, thanks in advance for the responses.

Jack

The PMA states that preference is given to pilots that have been with their current employer for 2 years. The actual speed of moving to AC is much more dependent on your qualifications compared to your fellow Express career applicants. Jazz pilots compete against Jazz pilots and so on. Each Express moves pilots at a different pace with Sky being the slowest and Georgian being the fastest but not much more than Jazz, having said that the PMA just changed from being a seniority based program to a qualification based program so that old data is pretty useless now.

In your case with a 4 year degree and 1500 hrs you should move through in the 2 year timeframe if the industry continues to move and you pass the HR part of the process. That of course assumes your degree is in something tangible and reputable.

If you can get your hands on the document Air Georgian put out to its pilots you really should, even if you have no intention of working there. It applies to all Express and they have done an amazing job at laying out the process and the things you can do to move quickly if you are highly qualified and they layout plans of how to get there if you dont enter AGL with the qualifications you want. It really is worth getting your hands on regardless of who you want to work for. I am sure some Georgian pilots will give you a copy.

[Jimmy2]

You’re implying that AC is an “upgrade” from Jazz? I guess in terms of pay after 25 years..

You can make over 200 grand a year at Air Canada after 2 years. Over 150 grand after 6 months if the above poster is correct about Emb Captain at 6 months.

[pigboat]

Some pilots currently go Captain after about 18 to 24 Months. EMB and A320. No one can tell you how long that will last. As the EMB fades out and the Bombardier come in I see many of the F/Os already here going Captain. Do not plan on any Captain positions being available in the first 2-3 or even 4 years. They MIGHT continue to be available but PLAN on the 4 years of flat pay to be safe .

In another year or two the expansion will slow down and most hiring after that will be for attrition. About 100+ per year.

Regards.

[Rowdy]

Its not an upgrade. Especially lifestyle wise.

But most people are moving over and taking the pay cut to go to ac just outside of the 2 year mark from Jazz.

[Noo]

Salty

[atphat]

Its not an upgrade. Especially lifestyle wise.

Interesting. You would know how?

Just spoke with a new hire the other day on his way to OGG. He didn't seem too bummed about it.

[PositiveRate27]

I just spoke to a new hire the other day that said the training was abysmal and he’s been stuck on rsv, only getting call outs for McMurray red eyes. Said he’d come back to jazz if he could. That’ll likely change as time goes on, and he gets more senior but it’s hardly sunshine and rainbows for new hires who take a massive pay cut from Jazz to commute on rsv at AC.

[atphat]

Said he’d come back to jazz if he could.

I’m sure Jazz would take him back in a heartbeat.

[fish4life]

I’ve actually heard that AC training is top notch so perhaps your buddy came in with a “teach me” attitude instead of the big boy study on your own attitude.
I will agree that AC RES is basically slave labour and probably one of the worth schedules of any 705 operation in the world.

[Bl33zrd]

I heard that AC training is very far from being top notch.

[Air.Field]

AC itself is far from top notch

[mbav8r]

Said he’d come back to jazz if he could.

I’m sure Jazz would take him back in a heartbeat.

Are you intentionally being obtuse, I’m sure Jazz would take him back also but would you start over at the bottom of the list? I know of several pilots who mentioned the training.

[Rowdy]

Its not an upgrade. Especially lifestyle wise.

Interesting. You would know how?

Just spoke with a new hire the other day on his way to OGG. He didn't seem too bummed about it.

Multiple friends who have gone over from outside and many within Jazz. Some off the original PML and some on the new BS. Couple close friends that went from SKR. I also have a family member who flew the line there for 34 years.

I see it this way. Pay cut. Benefit package is nowhere near ours. Loss of seniority. More than a year probation (Starts the date of your successful line check). As many have mentioned abysmal training regime. Terrible Res rules. Really crappy flying as a junior block holder. Close to 600 people that were just hired and are now senior to you that won't be retiring and moving the list any time soon. A union that does not care about its junior members. All for what? Some more pay in the last 10 years of your career? The chance to fly some 30 year old airbuses and EMB's that are being phased out? Those quick upgrades are a very VERY temporary thing, and only if you want to be at the bottom on res in yyz.

[Dry Guy]

A lot of Express guys are struggling in the training. Not sure why. All the information you need to be successful is given to you. What they don't do is hold your hand and spoon feed you everything. You do need some study skills and time management to decide what you should be doing at certain steps. But they do give you a lot of guidance right up to study guides that say what you should be studying on specific days. Personally I don't learn well when someone is just reading information to me anyways so I like doing the self study method better.

[Air.Field]

Perhaps they should opt to hire more based on experience than paper?

[Sharklasers]

It just seems like lots of express guys are having trouble because the classes for the the last 3 years have been overwhelmingly express pilots. Concurrently they are over represented in the people getting ATOs.
If they hired 80% westjet or airforce pilots for 3 years you would say that "lots of the Air Force guys are having trouble".

[Jean-Pierre]

Air Force guys have trouble

[confusedalot]

Amusing. Perhaps someone can point out a stereotypical pilot group that does not have trouble?

[Jean-Pierre]

Pilot with degree.