WJ Scab List

[telex]

You have three posts. Make your fourth an epic one. Make a difference.

Need the names?

PM me.

So thats a reason to publish names? Because YOU feel your in the right?

[digits_]

What they are doing is either legal, or it isn't.

If it is, you have no business whatsoever to try to publicly shame people for doing something you don't agree with.
If it is illegal, you can let the authorities deal with it, or sue them yourself if you feel that strongly about it and see what happens.

A lot of laws are in place with the purpose to protect the minorities when the majority feels like they can do anything they want because it's "democratic".

[tbaylx]

You have three posts. Make your fourth an epic one. Make a difference.

Need the names?

PM me.

So thats a reason to publish names? Because YOU feel your in the right?

You guys are really knocking them out of the park. It's no wonder WJ feels they're negotiating with amateurs

First you negotiate your way into off the street pilots at Swoop, then once they're on the property instead of trying to bring them onside as allies you go out of your way to alienate them. That should serve you well if you're worried about swoop being played off against mainline. I'm surprised management isn't offering to help you make up the list.

[FL410AV8R]

You guys are really knocking them out of the park. It's no wonder WJ feels they're negotiating with amateurs

First you negotiate your way into off the street pilots at Swoop, then once they're on the property instead of trying to bring them onside as allies you go out of your way to alienate them. That should serve you well if you're worried about swoop being played off against mainline. I'm surprised management isn't offering to help you make up the list.

I would argue with you that actually the opposite is true, it is WestJet that is displaying amateurish and irresponsible behaviour towards what was once the most rabidly loyal pilot group in the country if not on the planet. It takes real effort and irresponsibility to screw this up as badly as they have and continuing stupidity and arrogance not to make real attempts to repair the relationship. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

You seem to be getting incorrect and or incomplete information from somewhere. There have been NO negotiations regarding Swoop between WJ and ALPA. There have been a number of take it or leave it offers from WJ (including one of Final Offer Selection arbitration) but with so many strings attached you could have knitted an Afgan.

I am fully behind the direction our MEC and negotiators have taken. Swoop will be dealt with via scope and those who thought they could play the system to their own advantage may very well be unpleasantly surprised. Any WJ pilot I have spoken to is of the same mind when it comes to this attempted end run by both WJ and opportunistic assh@les. Some of the names I have seen are real industry gems with reputations for screwing over fellow pilots.

[groundpilot]

I don't even know why you guys waste your time engaging with "tbaylx"

He obviously has never flown for an airline and has zero understanding of scope. Its like trying to teach a grade 7 student calculus. He just isn't ready.

[atphat]

So you support the scabs?

Does that make you a scab?

Westnet.

Names are there.

Do it.

That is a very very bad idea.

No I do not support them. It would be a shame for a current WJ pilot to lose their job by posting names publicly. Don’t think for a second the company wouldn’t be able to find out who you are if they really wanted to.

[atphat]

Double

[Demeter]

Smooth move TL. Nuf said as itsprob at the lawyers already

[J Roc]

You guys are really knocking them out of the park. It's no wonder WJ feels they're negotiating with amateurs

First you negotiate your way into off the street pilots at Swoop, then once they're on the property instead of trying to bring them onside as allies you go out of your way to alienate them. That should serve you well if you're worried about swoop being played off against mainline. I'm surprised management isn't offering to help you make up the list.

While I'm opposed to public shaming, and I will not take part in the advancement of any "scab list", I have to call you out on your position here.

You're foolish to think that this is over or that our MEC negotiated a " 100% or nothing" position. tbaylx, for a guy that claims to have 25 years in the business with union and negotiating background, you certainly seem a lack an understanding of how this could play out. You really seem to be caught up in the external optics and online rhetoric, but truth be told, things are probably advancing much differently than we're being led to believe. This is FAR from over...

My advice to any external pilot looking to hitch their wagon to swoop - have a back up plan! Everything you're witnessing right now - OTS hires, foreign trainers, company and union posturing etc - is all part of negotiations. Anyone with a lick of union experience will tell you that negotiations NEVER end, even after the CBA.

Also, keep in mind, the CIRB has yet to rule on our first ULP. A positive ruling for the union could be a BIG game changer for those OTS hires. A positive ruling for the union will force the company back to the table with regards to swoop. Those that are in the know will tell you that our ULP complaints were NEVER about our MEC keeping WJ pilots out of swoop tails but rather a strategic maneuver by our union to force management to negotiate. Will we, the pilots of WJ, take few concessions while negotiating swoop flying? Probably, but we'll win a few things as well and our first CBA will be something that every WJ pilot will be proud of. Anyone with a lick of union experience will also tell you - a good CBA is one where both sides feel like they've lost something.

So, you're sadly mistaken if you think this over, or that WJ will keep 14 OTS hires around when they can gain a few concessions from 1500 pilots instead! Trust me, this is FAR from over...

Personally, while I would hate to see 14 pilots let go (probably with some sort of severance), we do have pilots at WJ who believe, when the dust settles, that an FO spot on the Q is too good for these "scabs". So, I'll say it again - have a back up plan.

However, I'm sure you'll be fine with this - you seem to advocate for an "every man for themselves" approach.

Best of luck to everyone involved.

J RO

[pigboat]

What they are doing is either legal, or it isn't.

If it is, you have no business whatsoever to try to publicly shame people for doing something you don't agree with.
If it is illegal, you can let the authorities deal with it, or sue them yourself if you feel that strongly about it and see what happens.

A lot of laws are in place with the purpose to protect the minorities when the majority feels like they can do anything they want because it's "democratic".

Nothing illegal going on in letting everyone know the names. Take pride in YOUR new position! We want to know those individuals that take those jobs. It is just important to not make PUBLIC negative statements about those taking those positions!!!! No need for that. The list of names is all we really need to see.

I would love to have a list of those taking those positions while Westjet pilots are trying to resolve their first Contract!!!! Thirty nine years a Union man.

[WeedPro2000]

Also, keep in mind, the CIRB has yet to rule on our first ULP. A positive ruling for the union could be a BIG game changer for those OTS hires. A positive ruling for the union will force the company back to the table with regards to swoop.

That's quite the wish sandwhich you just made yourself. I'm curious what you think a negative ruling brings.

Remember, Swoop was never about draining jobs from mainline. The business plan for WJ is clearly directed towards increasing the value added product in order to attract business travellers. CK clearly identified that in his latest communication to us, and it's been a plan developing for several years. Swoop, on the other hand, is quite clearly directed at staving off bottom feeding competition from crawling up our backsides and is totally focused on cost cost cost. There is NO ANTI-UNION ANIMUS in the Swoop concept, although the lack of access to the Swoop FD will by needs mean lost career and pay improvement opportunities (self inflicted). There is not going to be a favourable (to ALPA) ULP ruling, in spite of all of the Murray Hill Limousine test factors being present regarding common employer, there will be no labour relations purpose gained by the CIRB issuing a common employer finding.

ALPA's number one job should have been to immediately start negotiating over Swoop jobs last summer. They didn't, and now we have desperation moves happening like innocuous hiring bans that shoot blanks, and the OP here posting of scab lists.

Any concessions made now to put WJ pilots into Swoop flight decks are sure to make for interesting commentary.

[Bede]

CK clearly identified that in his latest communication to us, and it's been a plan developing for several years.

Talking about CK last memo, I'm curious on your thoughts of him identifying AC as our primary competitor, yet the memo before that saying, referencing our pay structure, claiming that AT & Sunwing are our primary competitors.

John, at what point does the doublespeak (many more examples available at your request) finally make you realize that WJ management has no interest in ensuring that you earn a wage similar to your peers doing identical work? Surely you must have a breaking point somewhere...

ALPA's number one job should have been to immediately start negotiating over Swoop jobs last summer. They didn't, and now we have desperation moves happening like innocuous hiring bans that shoot blanks, and the OP here posting of scab lists.

Actually they did. Except that the company lawyers insisted that as a precondition for negotiating for Swoop, ALPA would forever waive the right to labour action or filing any sort of ULP complaint.

[Bede]

While emotions are running as high as they've ever been, it's imperative that we remain professional if we want to win this fight. Publicly shaming pilots is not a behaviour that will advance our cause*. Let's let the company be the ones to make the dumb emotionally charged mistakes that has resulted in unifying the pilot group and their losses before the CIRB.

We have a fantastic MEC with the resources of the world's largest pilot union at their disposal. So far, we are undefeated before the CIRB. This track record will continue as long as we stay professional, rational and united.

Having said that, we can't stop until there is one list and an open bid for all Swoop positions. Those guys can get in line behind the Encore pilots who deserve these positions.

*Note: the company could argue that this constitutes harassment and fire you. You'd probably get your job back eventually but management is in the hostage taking business right now to gain negotiating capital.

[WeedPro2000]

I’ll run the risk of divulging corporate info by providing the sketch of what the company is trying to do with WJ. Read this and then tell me where the overlap with the Swoop market space is.

...In essence, I compare what we’re doing to starting a new airline – based on the investment we’re making to go after this significant growth opportunity. To give premium guests what they expect from premium travel (table stakes from their perspective), we are investing in:

•A hub strategy to provide business guests with the #1 thing they value – a strong network with connectivity and schedule frequency / options;

•WestJet-owned and operated guest lounges (domestic, transborder and international lounges) in YYZ, YYC and YVR;

•A world-class B787 Dreamliner interior, including business class with lie-flat seats, and service to match;

•737 Aircraft configuration changes (details to be shared when the time is right);

•Onboard premium food and beverage service;

•A planned transborder joint venture with Delta Airlines to make it possible to profitably serve new transborder business destinations;

•Digital enhancements to provide our guests with innovative and seamless travel experiences; and

•Significant updates to our Rewards program to entice premium guest loyalty...

Pilots may not like that the Swoop pilots are being paid less than mainline pilots, but that fact is not definitive proof of a plot to undermine WJ mainline pilot negotiations or the union. If ALPA wishes to grant concessions to get those jobs, well that is its choice to do so. I hope they don’t touch the $400,000 I’m planning to earn this year by flying a 737 to do so, but Viva la Revoluccion!

Comrade 4799

[Legacy]

Also, keep in mind, the CIRB has yet to rule on our first ULP. A positive ruling for the union could be a BIG game changer for those OTS hires. A positive ruling for the union will force the company back to the table with regards to swoop.

Remember, Swoop was never about draining jobs from mainline. The business plan for WJ is clearly directed towards increasing the value added product in order to attract business travellers. CK clearly identified that in his latest communication to us, and it's been a plan developing for several years. Swoop, on the other hand, is quite clearly directed at staving off bottom feeding competition from crawling up our backsides and is totally focused on cost cost cost.

Yeah and that's why they announced the strong possibility of Swoop having 40 planes. Just to stave off the other guys that don't even have 5 planes. Makes complete sense.

[George Taylor]

Hey Swallow, I'm sure your Ex will love the $400k T4, and it's pretty easy to see why you have one. I can only imagine what she went through.

[Legacy]

I couldn't

[J Roc]

Also, keep in mind, the CIRB has yet to rule on our first ULP. A positive ruling for the union could be a BIG game changer for those OTS hires. A positive ruling for the union will force the company back to the table with regards to swoop.

That's quite the wish sandwhich you just made yourself. I'm curious what you think a negative ruling brings.

John, what can I say – I love sandwiches!

Although some people choose to promote fear and infighting amongst our pilot group, while screaming at orange stickers and smashing clipboards across their knees, I choose a different approach. I choose to be as respectful as possible, to all parties involved, while trusting that my chosen representation has our pilot groups best interest in mind. Cautiously optimistic but none the less hopeful.

I don’t disagree with your assessment regarding the ULC business case though. I delete CK memos like everyone else…errr, I mean read CK's memos - I understand the business case that’s being presented. I believe everyone understands the business case.

Also, WJ can start ANY business venture they so please! I don’t give a fiddlers fart! However, when it affects our livelihoods and bargaining abilities, John? Well come on buddy! We have to act, which is what I trust our MEC has done. Our ULP's were never about keeping WJ pilots out of swoop tails, but I digress.

Truth be told, we have no idea what the final decision will look like, despite all of this banter, but at least our chosen representation isn’t just rolling over. I’m very thankful for our MEC effort and believe they’re working diligently on a solution which protects the careers of WJ pilots and not OTS hires. So, once again, I’ll repeat my advice to the OTS pilots – you better have a backup plan.

Simply glossing over this situation and assuming that our MEC has conceded to the will of WJ is just plain foolish. As foolish as picking a fight with an orange sticker.

Either way, you can't lose, john! ALPA may fail miserably and you’ll have more than enough ammunition for when you raid the union. OR, ALPA will succeed, negotiate a great CBA, secure swoop flying and you can fly your bag off in a pink airplane. Think of all that money you’ll make….for JT. Good for you, John. Good for you…

J RO

[cloak]

I’ll run the risk of divulging corporate info by providing the sketch of what the company is trying to do with WJ. Read this and then tell me where the overlap with the Swoop market space is.

...In essence, I compare what we’re doing to starting a new airline – based on the investment we’re making to go after this significant growth opportunity. To give premium guests what they expect from premium travel (table stakes from their perspective), we are investing in:

•A hub strategy to provide business guests with the #1 thing they value – a strong network with connectivity and schedule frequency / options;

•WestJet-owned and operated guest lounges (domestic, transborder and international lounges) in YYZ, YYC and YVR;

•A world-class B787 Dreamliner interior, including business class with lie-flat seats, and service to match;

•737 Aircraft configuration changes (details to be shared when the time is right);

•Onboard premium food and beverage service;

•A planned transborder joint venture with Delta Airlines to make it possible to profitably serve new transborder business destinations;

•Digital enhancements to provide our guests with innovative and seamless travel experiences; and

•Significant updates to our Rewards program to entice premium guest loyalty...

It sounds like they want to bring the current fleet standard higher to offer amenities usually offered on legacy carriers including service, network and so on, while starting a new airline to serve the lower end of the market, most likely resulting in lots of growth and opportunities in both places, especially on the 787. And how is it being received?

[infiniteregulus]

It sounds like an other company that already does these exact things today...

[J Roc]

Well, it's being received very well actually. Most pilots I speak with agree with the business case and are very excited for our growth opportunities. Im very excited for what our future holds and will ALWAYS be a proud Westjetter.

What ISN'T being received well is our pilot WAWCON being attacked for the sake of another amazing innovation by corporate america.

Regardless, they've shown their hand when they advertised for foreign pilots at $1200 US, contracted WJ maintenance at their current rates and offered signing bonuses to attract talent - this was NEVER about saving a few dollars in pilot wages.

As FC once said (past EVP at WJ) - "pilot costs are a FRACTION of CASM." Yah, I believe that comment may have gotten him " retired effectively immediately."

[LegoMan]

For reference

https://www.cockpitseeker.com/wp-conten ... t-2004.pdf

I'd like to point out the the co-pilot of the Enola Gay B29 is on that list.

[sportingrifle]

I think the term Scab has been lost in translation in this thread. Choosing to work at an upstart airline at the expense of those who work at the parent airline is not being a scab. Shortsighted yes, but for there to be scabs, there has to first be a strike. This may well happen. Scope is the most important thing in a pilots career, far beyond wages, working conditions, or profit sharing. Because without it, eventually there will be no wages, working conditions or profit sharing. There isn't much worth going on strike for but scope is one of them.

The term "scab" originated in middle English and Jack London had this to say about scabs:
"After God finished the rattlesnake, the toad, the vampire, He had some awful substance left with which He made a scab … When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the Devil shuts the gates of Hell to keep him out. No man has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with."

Those words may be a bit strong, but I have noticed that the scabs that were employed at two companies I worked at didn't have impressive careers afterwards. Things had a habit of not working out the way they wanted. They were probably surprised how quickly management forgot their "loyalty", but even after several mergers, their co-workers did not.

And FWIW, they never rode my jumpseat.

[WeedPro2000]

I do know that when ALPA was formed, the constitution prevented non-whites and women from being members, so it wouldn’t surprise me if a “scab list” was maintained.

I’m not a scab (yet), but I do identify as one.

[Flyingsquirrelsuck]

I do know that when ALPA was formed, the constitution prevented non-whites and women from being members, so it wouldn’t surprise me if a “scab list” was maintained.

I’m not a scab (yet), but I do identify as one.

What dose the constitution say now John?