Swoop Blacklist

[yyc757]

So the overseas (ex C3 etc) should have the right to take these jobs? You forget many ex C3 (etc) are already here at WJ.

You forget that Swoop flying is already being done by WJ pilots. (YHM YXX etc)

You advocate WJ pilots taking the flying at a reduced rate yet the 3rd year FO rate has been blown into mediocrity through inflation. How is that good at all for pilots when we are making less than the trades. THEY sure aren't taking pay cuts through inflation.

The seniority system is what it is. In some ways it's fair and reasonable. In other ways it sucks. (Like when a stupid CEO runs your company into the ground and you are forced to go to the bottom of another list or go overseas)

It's ironic many of the anti ALPA folks are fine with the company's swoop proposal because it doesn't effect them personally (the implication being they don't mind throwing colleagues under the bus) AND YET they themselves benefited by the company's use of the seniority system.

Finally, why the assumption that pilots should subsidize a passenger's ticket? (Especially considering Nav Canada fees per passenger are far more than the pilot cost per passenger.) I dare you to tell your mechanic he should earn less so you can drive your broke down car.

[tbaylx]

So the overseas (ex C3 etc) should have the right to take these jobs? You forget many ex C3 (etc) are already here at WJ.

You forget that Swoop flying is already being done by WJ pilots. (YHM YXX etc)

You advocate WJ pilots taking the flying at a reduced rate yet the 3rd year FO rate has been blown into mediocrity through inflation. How is that good at all for pilots when we are making less than the trades. THEY sure aren't taking pay cuts through inflation.

The seniority system is what it is. In some ways it's fair and reasonable. In other ways it sucks. (Like when a stupid CEO runs your company into the ground and you are forced to go to the bottom of another list or go overseas)

It's ironic many of the anti ALPA folks are fine with the company's swoop proposal because it doesn't effect them personally (the implication being they don't mind throwing colleagues under the bus) AND YET they themselves benefited by the company's use of the seniority system.

Finally, why the assumption that pilots should subsidize a passenger's ticket? (Especially considering Nav Canada fees per passenger are far more than the pilot cost per passenger.) I dare you to tell your mechanic he should earn less so you can drive your broke down car.

Of course an overseas or any other pilot should be able to take a job that’s been offered to the public if he’s qualified and willing to work for the terms and conditions offered. Why shouldn’t he be able to?

It’d be nice to make China wages here in Canada without having to leave. But that’s not reality. Reality is a 737 pilot makes much less today than he did in 1980. That’s economic reality since deregulation. No amount of union tactics are going to change that.

The pilot shortage might eventually change that, it’s certainly dropped experience requirements. The next step is increase in wages. Swoop already demonstrated that a bit with the first couple of year bonus being added on to attract candidates.

[Piston-Broke]

How can you blame WJ pilots for not accepting a further degradation to our already "below market" wages? Don't forget these are the same WJ tails flying the same WJ routes. This place has been in a downward slide for a long time now, a constant erosion to where we are here today. That still wasn't good enough for them (executives), so now we have this embarrassment called Swoop. I've been here long enough that it doesn't directly affect my working conditions..yet, but it affects a lot of my friends I fly with here. And that bothers me. And if successful, It will also affect the future wages and working conditions of all Canadian pilots. I was never a union guy, and I have always put the company's best interests first. I bent over when it came to bases and just rolled with the punches when it came to loss of benefits, increase in benefit premiums, below average contracts, etc. and elimination of our only award for tenure here, a measly couple of flights after 10 years of service. I draw the line when it comes to hiring off the street and offering training to foreign pilots. We don't deserve that. If anything, this decision to go down this road has converted a lot of non-supporters and polarized our group. Unfortunately, I think the only language our executives understand is money. And on the current path we're going down, I wouldn't be surprised if we find ourselves setting the parking brake soon. I was hoping with the "retirement" of Saretzky we would see a breath fresh air and some willingness to work this out. However, every day that goes by seems to be a day lost for reconciliation.. and a missed opportunity.

[tbaylx]

I'm not blaming them, i'd want to see the same terms and conditions too if i could negotiate them. But what you deserve and want means nothing if you can't negotiate it. It's like saying its Westjet pilot's flying. You may want it to be, and think it should be, but unless you can negotiate that or have it arbitrated in your favour it's not if the company wants to hire off the street.

Keeping things in perspective, Westjet pilots are still some of the best paid pilot positions in Canada (as the T4 wavers here like to show every once and awhile). Sure you work for your money but that isn't anything new. Swoop might affect growth at mainline, it might not, but it isn't affecting a single Westjetter's pay or existing employment.

I'd love to see Westjet pilot's making $300 an hour which is where it probably should be if you took Canadian's 737 pilot's wages and increased them for inflation. But pilots in Canada haven't been able to negotiate even inflation over the last 20 years. Maybe that will change over the next 20.

[mbav8r]

Tbaylx,
Why do you refuse over and over to accept the flying belongs to WJ pilots?!
At this point I have to come to the conclusion you are just trying to stir the pot and getting a kick out of it or the alternative, you are one of them, swoop applicant that is.
The language of the scope clause for lack of any other description is so explicit there is no other way to interpret it, the flying belongs to WJ/Encore Pilots on the WJ pilot list. How do you think that language ended up in the agreement, do you think it magically appeared out of the goodness of managements heart or can we assume it was previously negotiated in to protect WJ pilots from the very scenario we’ve been discussing in this one of several threads on this topic?
I’ve been very critical of WJ pilots in the past, long before Encore was even a blip, you can search my previous posts going back years and you would see that my support of WJ pilots has been severely lacking, I would even argue that if the attack on the culture over the last few years had not occurred, the WJ pilots may have agreed to allow Swoop at the proposed rates, you know, in the name of “owners” supporting the bottom line. There have been several reductions to the quality of life at WJ and that they are finally attempting to stop the spiral dive we’re all in, has my support.
I believe the CIRB final ruling should go in the pilots favour and that will put the current swoop pilots future at risk, the outcome of that to be determined, my hope for the scumbags to have no protection and be out of work. As you pointed out though, history is replete with stories of scabs gaining with their choice to undercut other pilots, in my opinion the only pilots who would support this are ones that have done it for their own personal gain, making you suspect of this.

[atphat]

Swoop might affect growth at mainline, it might not, but it isn't affecting a single Westjetter's pay or existing employment.

Yes. Swoop is actually amazing for the existing pilot group. Doesn’t affect them at all.

[tbaylx]

Tbaylx,
Why do you refuse over and over to accept the flying belongs to WJ pilots?!
At this point I have to come to the conclusion you are just trying to stir the pot and getting a kick out of it or the alternative, you are one of them, swoop applicant that is.
The language of the scope clause for lack of any other description is so explicit there is no other way to interpret it, the flying belongs to WJ/Encore Pilots on the WJ pilot list. How do you think that language ended up in the agreement, do you think it magically appeared out of the goodness of managements heart or can we assume it was previously negotiated in to protect WJ pilots from the very scenario we’ve been discussing in this one of several threads on this topic?
I’ve been very critical of WJ pilots in the past, long before Encore was even a blip, you can search my previous posts going back years and you would see that my support of WJ pilots has been severely lacking, I would even argue that if the attack on the culture over the last few years had not occurred, the WJ pilots may have agreed to allow Swoop at the proposed rates, you know, in the name of “owners” supporting the bottom line. There have been several reductions to the quality of life at WJ and that they are finally attempting to stop the spiral dive we’re all in, has my support.
I believe the CIRB final ruling should go in the pilots favour and that will put the current swoop pilots future at risk, the outcome of that to be determined, my hope for the scumbags to have no protection and be out of work. As you pointed out though, history is replete with stories of scabs gaining with their choice to undercut other pilots, in my opinion the only pilots who would support this are ones that have done it for their own personal gain, making you suspect of this.

If you keep repeating it it doesn't make it true. It's only their flying if the CIRB rules it so or they negotiate it. At the moment that hasn't happened yet. It's not a matter of accepting it or not, that's simply fact.

Just because someone doesn't share your opinion doesn't automatically make them a troll or any other name you care to throw around. but whatever makes you happy.

[mbav8r]

[quote=tbaylx
If you keep repeating it it doesn't make it true. It's only their flying if the CIRB rules it so or they negotiate it. At the moment that hasn't happened yet. It's not a matter of accepting it or not, that's simply fact.

Just because someone doesn't share your opinion doesn't automatically make them a troll or any other name you care to throw around. but whatever makes you happy.

[/quote]
So, let me get this straight, in your mind any clause in any employee agreement is only applicable if the CIRB says so, boy are they going to be busy over there once other airlines figure out this tidbit of information!
Also, I gave two choices, you could also be one of them!

[Piston-Broke]

I'm not blaming them, i'd want to see the same terms and conditions too if i could negotiate them. But what you deserve and want means nothing if you can't negotiate it. It's like saying its Westjet pilot's flying. You may want it to be, and think it should be, but unless you can negotiate that or have it arbitrated in your favour it's not if the company wants to hire off the street.

Keeping things in perspective, Westjet pilots are still some of the best paid pilot positions in Canada (as the T4 wavers here like to show every once and awhile). Sure you work for your money but that isn't anything new. Swoop might affect growth at mainline, it might not, but it isn't affecting a single Westjetter's pay or existing employment.

I'd love to see Westjet pilot's making $300 an hour which is where it probably should be if you took Canadian's 737 pilot's wages and increased them for inflation. But pilots in Canada haven't been able to negotiate even inflation over the last 20 years. Maybe that will change over the next 20.

I guess we will all see soon what the Westjet pilots can negotiate now that we have access to the tools in the Canada labour code and the ability to strike? In the past, our negotiations consisted of a low ball offer from the company, and a selected group of our peers trying to sell it. It usually ended up with a failed TA, a shell game, and a slight pass on the second go. A hard environment to “negotiate” in when your negotiators consist of a bunch of “Harvard graduates” vs some “high school idiots” (a supposed quote from one of our executives). A true comparison however, when you have a bunch of line pilots with no training up against a board of savvy business executives. Anyways, time will tell if all this corporate penny pinching, culture and morale erosion, and destructive behaviour over the years was worth it to thier bottom line? I wonder what the outcome/cost would have been if they invested in thier pilot group instead of fighting it every step of the way? I’m guessing you would have had some more productive, happy and loyal pilots. The complete opposite to what we have now. The swoop decision will be the final cherry on top of Saretsky’s legacy I think. A poor business plan and the final nail in the coffin for pilot and executive relations. But what do I know.. I guess we all better go to wjpilotfacts.com for the whole scoop.. since we’re not negotiating in the public anymore.

[Mostly Harmless]

Anyways, time will tell if all this corporate penny pinching, culture and morale erosion, and destructive behaviour over the years was worth it to thier bottom line? I wonder what the outcome/cost would have been if they invested in thier pilot group instead of fighting it every step of the way? I’m guessing you would have had some more productive, happy and loyal pilots. The complete opposite to what we have now. The swoop decision will be the final cherry on top of Saretsky’s legacy I think. A poor business plan and the final nail in the coffin for pilot and executive relations. But what do I know.. I guess we all better go to wjpilotfacts.com for the whole scoop.. since we’re not negotiating in the public anymore.

I agree that a token of gratitude can go a long way with a labour group. I remember when our agreements needed a 70% pass to be considered a win... not 50% +1.

You are right, it will ultimately be Gregg's legacy but, let us never forget who is the true puppet master in charge of pulling the strings. Clive.

[cloak]

This may be too simplistic but from the outside to some one who does not have the intricate details, facts seem to suggest that ULCC flying is going to be done no matter what. It's simply a question of whether it's going to be done by Swoop profiting Westjet or other carriers that are lining up in which case not only is there no benefit to Westjet, but quite possibly a threat to it. It also seems that the 787 is where the focus should be as the area of major growth; Swoop is simply a defensive move.

It seems that the circumstances with Encore start-up were similar in terms of pay and hiring practices, when it was a subsidiary and feeder; this is even a new airline with no connection to Westjet network? Westjet pilots have a relationship with Westjet Airlines, not with the pilots who may be joining a new airline, and therefore if they feel that there is a case of common employer, it might be best to make that case with the CIRB, as opposed to targeting the people that accept employments since they have no relationship or obligation to each other?

[J Roc]

This may be too simplistic but from the outside to some one who does not have the intricate details, facts seem to suggest that ULCC flying is going to be done no matter what. It's simply a question of whether it's going to be done by Swoop profiting Westjet or other carriers that are lining up in which case not only there is no benefit to Westjet, but quite possibly a threat to it. It also seems that the 787 is where the focus should be as the area of major growth; Swoop is simply a defensive move.

Again from the outside, it seems that the circumstances with Encore start-up were the same in terms of pay and hiring practices, when it was a subsidiary and feeder; this is even a new airline with no connection to Westjet network? Westjet pilots have a relationship with Westjet Airlines, not with the pilots who may be joining a new airline, and therefore if they feel that there is a case of common employer, they should be making that case, as opposed to targeting the people that accept employments since they have no relationship or obligation to each other?

That's a fair assessment and who knows, we're probably heading that direction. However, to compare encore as a similar situation isn't really accurate. Encore doesn't present the same scope threats as Swoop will. Although encore did lower the bar and if I had my time back I would vote "no". Anyways, thats another thread altogether...

J RO

[EPR]

Does this mean I shouldn't be flying for mileage...I'm on the BAM plan (buck a mile)...wish I was paid by the pound though...lol! (post inserted for humor)...JRoc would understand.

[cloak]

That's a fair assessment and who knows, we're probably heading that direction. However, to compare encore as a similar situation isn't really accurate. Encore doesn't present the same scope threats as Swoop will. Although encore did lower the bar and if I had my time back I would vote "no". Anyways, thats another thread altogether...
J RO

You're right, Encore was different in that it was closely tied to Westjet, it fed its routes, passengers seamlessly connected on those flights; whereas Swoop is an entirely different airline. It does not feed into Westjet, it does not even connect with Westjet flights; it serves a different market. And it is not uncommon for major corporations to serve different sectors of the market with different companies, Canadian Tire does it, Metro and Loblaws do it, not to mention auto makers; the list is long. It does not constitute a common employer status. Without those secondary companies those corporations would not be able to serve those different markets and competition would be reduced. And that is not good for the market or consumers, and regulatory authorities will likely see it that way too.

[J Roc]

Does this mean I shouldn't be flying for mileage...I'm on the BAM plan (buck a mile)...wish I was paid by the pound though...lol! (post inserted for humor)...JRoc would understand.

BUCK A MILE!!? Dear God! You must be a pretty big deal. In my day, only the twin otter Gods were paid BAM! lol

What I'd give for the BAM program now!

lol...too funny.

[lostaviator]

I am unable to comment on the CSA’s as I have not been able to find any comments anywhere about what they will be doing. If history repeats we will see a Swoop base pay structure for them if it does not already exists.

CSA in YXX said many of them are being let go.... CSA work for Swoop is going to be provided by the same contract company that runs Flair.. Go figure. haha. They might keep one WJ employee on as a "base manager" but the rest of them are sol. Taking care of our people at its finest.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Does that put Flair CSAs on some sort of scab list?
Or what about those Westjet CSAs who instead of working at Earl’s, go work at Flair?
Man this is getting messy!

[Cabot]

Does that put Flair CSAs on some sort of scab list?
Or what about those Westjet CSAs who instead of working at Earl’s, go work at Flair?
Man this is getting messy!

Don't worry. As long as JS / NCP / WeedPro2000 / Proud#1 Scab can make his $300k+ as a 737 skipper with ample OT, everything is good. Keep your head in the sand, nothing to see here.....

On a more serious note, really sad to hear that. Culture is getting decimated on a weekly basis around this place. There are some really good long-term YXX employees that will be let go because of this. Doubtlessly other stations will soon be Swooped, in the same way numerous quality station people got Encored circa 2013-2014-2015-2016.

[schnitzel2k3]

On a lighter note - thought Swoops poop news was pretty funny.

Wonder if the flight crew get credits to use the lav.

S.

https://www.flyswoop.com/news/dutynotfree.html

[JohnnyHotRocks]

That has to be an april fools joke!
I heard that Ryanair was planning to charge for the lav some years ago. Not sure if they went through with it.