Everyday at WJ : union busting

[Demeter]

You didn’t provide the details to back up your allegations

Flew with a member of PAT or so long ago. Heard it from them

You still didn’t provide the details to prove otherwise. Nuff said about credibility.

[WeedPro2000]

Hi John...the T4 is complete BS at westjet. It's the loud muffler on a Honda civic. Sure it's a metric, but only one.

Lets just be completely honest here, the only reason you're fighting alpa isn't for any altruistic reason, it's purely because you're terrified of losing your OT. That's it.

I have zero interest in bankrupting the company and we wont. Its anti union rhetoric. Of course managment is going to fight this change as costs will go up. Marginally. Poor decisions (like swoop) will drive this ship down. For a company so hell bent on saving money they sure are willing to throw it away to spite us. It would have cost nothing to get us new ties and throw swoop (our) flying in our schedules. But no, let's make poor business decisions out of spite. That's what will scuttle this ship. And it really brings to light a point: you're either too blind or too brainwashed to see you're fighting for a company that will happily dispose of you. But hey, it's just business right?

Terrified. Hmm. Well, I've stood on the edge of a 480 foot high bridge and I'll admit I was terrified. But I jumped anyway.

I'm not "terrified" of what ALPA is going to achieve here shortly. It will mean seniority for bidding in which case I'll bid the YYZ base and work 9 one days a month, probably on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Wednesdays I'll get my mani/pedi. Mondays I'll spend at the German cultural center. Fridays, I don't know what I'll do on Fridays. But the weekends? Well, every weekend will be a weekend!!!!!

By the way, Swoop isn't a bad business decision.

And regarding altruism, and while you are diagnosing motives without knowing me, I must agree that pilots are generally motivated by altruism. It's one of the first things I noticed about pilots when I got my licence: "These people are all motivated by their desire to change the world and make it a better place for their fellow man!"

[WeedPro2000]

I have screenings in China scheduled in June so perhaps you won't have my opinions to deal with soon. Fingers crossed lol!!

[Victory]

Wow I always thought these were parody accounts but that guy just said Fck ALPA and jumped off a bridge.

[hurtin'albertan]

I have screenings in China scheduled in June so perhaps you won't have my opinions to deal with soon. Fingers crossed lol!!

You've got 1500 WJ pilots pulling for you on this! Best of luck and good fortune!

[KAG]

John, I've never had the pleasure of flying with you, nor would my last name have been as memorable as the crew of swallow hiscock. that one really made me laughter btw. Anyway if we cross paths on a layover first few rounds are on me. Honestly I really do wish your passion was redirected. If you're really applying to a Asian contract I wish you all the best.

[Realitychex]

Flair just announced a raft of expansion to YYJ, YXE, YYC, YVR, YXS etc.

You folks need to quit fiddling as Rome begins to burn and give the company the tools it needs to decisively deal with this very real threat to your careers.

If it’s not Flair, it’ll be someone else.

You want to protect your future at WS?

Shut, lock and brick up that back door.

Some of you are idealogically stuck in the trees when the forest you inhabit is expanding.

[Rezy]

Flair just announced a raft of expansion to YYJ, YXE, YYC, YVR, YXS etc.

You folks need to quit fiddling as Rome begins to burn and give the company the tools it needs to decisively deal with this very real threat to your careers.

If it’s not Flair, it’ll be someone else.

You want to protect your future at WS?

Shut, lock and brick up that back door.

Some of you are idealogically stuck in the trees when the forest you inhabit is expanding.

If it’s not Flair it’ll be Swoop. And how exactly does that help a WJ pilot with the current status quo?

[WeedPro2000]

Thanks for the words KAG. We'll fight for the coffee.

I think my passion is aligned with RealityChex's. I was here when JetsGo exposed our weak position. We watched virtually helplessly as they blew a cannonball sized hole in our operation's competitiveness. On another website, wjpilotforum.ca, which is restricted to essentially the 39 percent of us who voted against ALPA (you need an existing member's recommendation), many are voicing their displeasure and concern about where ALPA is taking us. Now that ALPA has refused to extend the conciliation period, the concern grows.

While I am somewhat sympathetic to the concerns of those who think that Swoop is the leading edge of a campaign to eradicate the working conditions of existing WJ pilots, I do not share that view. ALPA consistently shows its lack of concern over the competitiveness of WJ in the marketplace.They would rather we repeat the experience of the US major airlines prior to 9/11 by inflating salaries to unrealistic levels, imperiling profitability and therefore survivability, instead of working collaboratively to maintain a competitive position in the marketplace. I have heard the majority of ALPA leaders at WJ speak before. I know the rhetoric that excites the troops. I fervently disagree with the message.

From what I read in the past about economics, the dismal science, being number 2 in a marketplace is a precarious place. Number 2 is a target from ahead and behind. Many ALPA supporters think WJ is big enough to be immune from economics. They think only about contracts. Well, I was at 3 airlines that had contracts with the pilots. Those airlines don't exist anymore. At the last outfit, C3, we pilots were blindsided by our poor financial shape. In fact my good friend Tom, who was a pilot at WJ at the time I was at C3, told me had one of the founders (RealiityChex) of WJ in the jump seat who had told him in the spring of 2001 that my company would be gone in 6 months time. I think he was off by a month or two.

I'm likely not destined for China. I have medical factors that will likely rule me out. In the meantime, I'm on team WJ.

[Go Guns]

Flair just announced a raft of expansion to YYJ, YXE, YYC, YVR, YXS etc.

You folks need to quit fiddling as Rome begins to burn and give the company the tools it needs to decisively deal with this very real threat to your careers.

If it’s not Flair, it’ll be someone else.

You want to protect your future at WS?

Shut, lock and brick up that back door.

Some of you are idealogically stuck in the trees when the forest you inhabit is expanding.

The same thing could be said to the other side. WestJet had all the time in the world to sort this out in a matter that would benefit everyone involved. They chose a different route. Most of the drivers completely understand the need for Swoop and agree with it, they just don’t understand why the costs savings need to be off our backs.

[countdown]

The MEC tells management that they expect all Swoop flying to be done by WJ pilots at WJ hourly rates - and they expect those rates to rise by 30 to 40% with a new contract. Not a great place to start negotiating rates for a ULCC. Swoop flying should have been negotiated as an equipment bid and a step up in salary and aircraft from Encore up through to mainline. The MEC has drawn a line in the sand and we're all going to burn for their stubbornness.

[Bede]

The MEC tells management that they expect all Swoop flying to be done by WJ pilots at WJ hourly rates - and they expect those rates to rise by 30 to 40% with a new contract. Not a great place to start negotiating rates for a ULCC. Swoop flying should have been negotiated as an equipment bid and a step up in salary and aircraft from Encore up through to mainline. The MEC has drawn a line in the sand and we're all going to burn for their stubbornness.

I'm always interested to hear the rationale from the other side, but no one (mostly WeedPro/RottenApple/NCP) ever takes me up on it:

What is your interpretation of s. 10 of our agreement? Does the agreement not state that all flying is to be done by pilots on the WPDL? Does the agreement not define the WPDL? Do we not have an agreement stating pay rates for the B737?

May I ask, if you were on the MEC what would you do in this situation? Would you agree to an LOU setting the Swoop wages at their current level? Would you insist on scope? What would you do if the company didn't agree to your wishes?

I'm 100% with the MEC on this issue as is EVERY pilot (YYZ base) I have flown with (even those that voted no to ALPA).

[Flyingsquirrelsuck]

The MEC tells management that they expect all Swoop flying to be done by WJ pilots at WJ hourly rates - and they expect those rates to rise by 30 to 40% with a new contract. Not a great place to start negotiating rates for a ULCC. Swoop flying should have been negotiated as an equipment bid and a step up in salary and aircraft from Encore up through to mainline. The MEC has drawn a line in the sand and we're all going to burn for their stubbornness.

But what about WJ management stating they want WJ pilots flying Swoop aircraft? They , WJ management took an adversarial stance on staffing this new venture, expecting our pilots to look the other way while doing the same work for less money.

Please take a look a Spirit Airlines new contact. A true ULCC. They have figured out a way to compensate the pilot group better than current WJ rates. Is it magic?

I would love some of you to answer the hard questions on this thread, but I’m not expecting a real discussion to hapen

[Rezy]

Thanks for the words KAG. We'll fight for the coffee.

I think my passion is aligned with RealityChex's. I was here when JetsGo exposed our weak position. We watched virtually helplessly as they blew a cannonball sized hole in our operation's competitiveness. On another website, wjpilotforum.ca, which is restricted to essentially the 39 percent of us who voted against ALPA (you need an existing member's recommendation), many are voicing their displeasure and concern about where ALPA is taking us. Now that ALPA has refused to extend the conciliation period, the concern grows.

While I am somewhat sympathetic to the concerns of those who think that Swoop is the leading edge of a campaign to eradicate the working conditions of existing WJ pilots, I do not share that view. ALPA consistently shows its lack of concern over the competitiveness of WJ in the marketplace.They would rather we repeat the experience of the US major airlines prior to 9/11 by inflating salaries to unrealistic levels, imperiling profitability and therefore survivability, instead of working collaboratively to maintain a competitive position in the marketplace. I have heard the majority of ALPA leaders at WJ speak before. I know the rhetoric that excites the troops. I fervently disagree with the message.

From what I read in the past about economics, the dismal science, being number 2 in a marketplace is a precarious place. Number 2 is a target from ahead and behind. Many ALPA supporters think WJ is big enough to be immune from economics. They think only about contracts. Well, I was at 3 airlines that had contracts with the pilots. Those airlines don't exist anymore. At the last outfit, C3, we pilots were blindsided by our poor financial shape. In fact my good friend Tom, who was a pilot at WJ at the time I was at C3, told me had one of the founders (RealiityChex) of WJ in the jump seat who had told him in the spring of 2001 that my company would be gone in 6 months time. I think he was off by a month or two.

I'm likely not destined for China. I have medical factors that will likely rule me out. In the meantime, I'm on team WJ.

ALPA won’t extend conciliation until there is an agreement with Swoop staffing. This is there biggest concern right now and they are taking an offensive stance toward management and bargaining, which is a good thing. Likely at this point, the CIRB will not make a ruling while negotiations are still taking place, as ALPA wants a ruling there is no benefit to extending conciliation. If the ruling does not go the way ALPA wants they have 2 other avenues available- common employer or strike. The later of which becomes more likely before swoop starts operations if the do not extend conciliation.
To date, there has not been talk about Swoop during bargaining with conciliators- that we can confirm.

So there is absolutely no benefit for ALPA to extend conciliation at this point.

[FICU]

The MEC tells management that they expect all Swoop flying to be done by WJ pilots at WJ hourly rates

This should be the priority.

- and they expect those rates to rise by 30 to 40% with a new contract.

This would be wishful thinking.

Get the flying at current rates first.

[Realitychex]

If you want to earn US style wages, then figure out how 100% of WS's income can be earned in US$ and how WS can operate based out of the US with US costs and US levels of taxation, (at all levels), rather than Canadian levels of taxation and the issues the high levels of taxation cause. Have you checked out US operating margins vs Cdn margins recently? It's night and day.

Your management can't communicate precisely what needs to be done in these terms for obvious reasons, but the time to crush Flair is now. Not six months from now. Not a year from now. Now. They are very weak and extremely vulnerable.

Those folks who think otherwise better be prepared to deal with far, far tougher issues than figuring out how to ensure Swoop's 10-15 aircraft have the lowest stage length adjusted costs in the business in Canada.

They'll have to deal with things like how to deal with a radical mainline downsizing if obtuse WS ALPA obstinence gives Flair and others a window to gain any traction in the market.

Everyone at WJ needs to understand the necessity to SHUT THE BACK DOOR immediately.

That issue far surpasses anything else that is going on.

All WS's competitors must be rubbing their hands with glee at what's going on at WS and the opportunity this stubborn intransigence is presenting.

I know I would. It's a dream come true for the competition. It's self sabotage at it's worst.

[Realitychex]

Sometimes a spade needs to be called a shovel.

[Go Guns]

If you want to earn US style wages, then figure out how 100% of WS's income can be earned in US$ and how WS can operate based out of the US with US costs and US levels of taxation, (at all levels), rather than Canadian levels of taxation and the issues the high levels of taxation cause. Have you checked out US operating margins vs Cdn margins recently? It's night and day.

Your management can't communicate this for obvious reasons, but the time to crush Flair is now. Not six months from now. Not a year from now. Now.

Those folks who think otherwise better be prepared to deal with far, far tougher issues than figuring out how to ensure Swoop's 10-15 aircraft have the lowest stage length adjusted costs in the business in Canada.

They'll have to deal with things like how to deal with a radical mainline downsizing if obtuse WS ALPA obstinence gives Flair and others a window to gain any traction in the market.

Everyone at WJ needs to understand the necessity to SHUT THE BACK DOOR immediately.

That issue far surpasses anything else that is going on.

All WS's competitors must be rubbing their hands with glee at what's going on at WS and the opportunity this stubborn intransigence is presenting.

I know I would. It's a dream come true for the competition. It's self sabotage at it's worst.

Again, the majority of the drivers are on board with the idea of Swoop, and WS ALPA has been willing to discuss Swoop for months. There's only one party dragging their feet here, giving the competition an opportunity to get a stronger foothold.

[countdown]

Westjet is not going to pay Swoop pilots over twice the hourly rate that Flair and other entrants are paying. Maybe we could get Swoop close to what our current rates are and then start working on what we really want which an improvement to mainline WAWON - specifically, schedules and cash in jeans. When the Swoop pilots flow to mainline they will be happy for the career progression.

Yes, negotiate scope with Swoop, negotiate something so that we stay on the one list, but Swoop and Mainline are not going to have the same WAWCON, unless perhaps we lower ours. I'm convinced that equal WAWCON for Swoop and Mainline is a nonstarter. When this finally all makes it to the arbitrator we are going to be in a worse place than we are now.

If you really want 100% ALPA support then get realistic about what's truly achievable.

[cloak]

Speaking of U.S pay, back in 2000 United Airlines secured a hefty pay increase (48%?), over 300K for B737 skippers, and about a year later chapter 11, disappearance of pension, lay-offs ensued. There is such a thing as pricing oneself out of the market. That U.S wages and cost structure are different has become even more evident recently; their majors entry pay is in the 70s, whereas Air Canada for instance is not even 50.

I'm not an expert, but am thinking if all its costs are the same as WS, then how is Swoop going to compete with other ULCCs? Seems that ULCC flying is going to be done no matter what, if not profitably by Swoop, then by one of the other players. Swoop is a defensive move, perhaps the focus should be on the B787s where the real expansion will come?