First Job

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For a first Pilot job, where would the best start be?

Poll ended at Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:25 am

Flight Instructor
18
22%
Bush Flying
45
55%
Ramp (Pilot in waiting 3-12 months)
19
23%
 
Total votes: 82

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confusedalot
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Re: First Job

Post by confusedalot »

Rockie wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:50 pm Funny, I also flew the T-33 and F-18. Both had their challenges based on the roles they did and the equipment they had to offer. Was one harder than the other? Depends entirely on what you were doing.

Using automation properly is a skill. It’s another way of flying the aircraft that’s all. Is it harder than hand flying? Depends entirely on what you’re doing.

It is truly tiresome however hearing this constant bleating about how much harder hand bombed aircraft are because it’s total bullshit. It isn’t harder, it’s just different. This constant put down of other pilots is also bullshit and tiresome. Nobody’s trying to steal Cat’s (or yours) glory days away from him.
He he he,

Tongue in cheek, I had zero glory days. zero. I am part of the schmucks who thought I would make a go of it and just worked very hard who could actually do the job and clearly understood it, but never got any glory. We are not all born equal.

So no glory smashing here, I just tell it like it is, which is probably the the main reason I got no glory in the first place :lol:
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Re: First Job

Post by Rockie »

I don’t find flying large complex airplanes easier than flying ones designed to be strictly hand flown. Every time I begin to agree with you and . that this is easy, something happens to remind me that it’s not and to pull my head out of my ass. Maybe that never happened to you confused, or maybe you just forgot the times that it did.

Nobody ever stops making mistakes no matter what they’re flying, how many different airplanes they’ve flown or for how long. In a business where mistakes can have tragic consequences, that alone strips away any bragging rights anyone might have.
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Re: First Job

Post by valleyboy »

An NDB isnt getting you down below a 50 foot decision height within the airport environment
-- really !! :mrgreen: I can remember when Timmins got the ILS and the joke was the minimums increased by 100 feet -- LOL

In the discussion on who's "dick" is bigger - it is much easier to be a pilot now. Attitudes have changed, rules have been tightened up and with the training and such the "geterdone" attitude is certainly less prevalent. Things change and shift. Hands and feet fade a little to automation but as indicated above it's the human factor issues that never change. Being able to manage a flight deck and use you head is what it's all about,Ironically,current personal observations, I see 700-1000 hour TT captains who make the image of the crusty old captain in CRM profiles look like a modal captain - how do we fix that?

There are and always were 3 groups in aviation, the guys who believe it's a calling, ones who think it's just a job (actually dislike what they do) and likely like everything else somewhere between the other 2 is the sweet spot.

Back to the thread - a first job is what it is, unfortunately, with present conditions people think they should have a choice. Well sit back and wait for you dream first job and be left in the dust. You have 250 hours and barely the skills to survive on your own. Take the first offer and be thankful. There is no "bush" anymore. My only objection is that 250 hour pilots should not be instructing. That's the one sad area of aviation. The industry needs to change and attract professional, career instructors, not time builders.
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Re: First Job

Post by shimmydampner »

These arguments are so stupid; everyone just massaging themselves furiously while getting all bent out of shape about the opinion of some internet stranger.
I do find it interesting that some pilots would, in a different context, probably espouse the obvious benefits of automation in terms of safety, reduction of pilot workload, etc. However, when it comes to the context of defending their need to feel special, they will bleat on about the problems of complexity making life challenging and difficult. Sure, they are two sides of the same coin, but let’s not be disingenuous here.
If you’re truly being honest with yourself, you will admit that some flying jobs are harder than others, regardless of what lines you are crossing to make the comparison, be it eras of aviation, types of operations, aircraft types, or even the same aircraft doing different operations. Regardless of whether you fall on the less challenging or more challenging side of any given comparison, there’s no need to try to diminish the requisite knowledge, skills and abilities of the other side.
However, objectively speaking, not all flying jobs are created equal. To suggest that they are, and are just different, is not really being honest. Before becoming a 705, FMS drone, flying from one fully automated approach to the next, I spent years doing fairly hard core bush flying. When I tally up the ledger on both sides, I can certainly say that one is much more challenging than the other.
Furthermore if I’m being honest with myself, I can absolutely imagine that doing the same work with the equipment and in the environment of 20, 30 or 50 years ago, must have been significantly more challenging still.
I don’t feel like admitting either of those things is a blow to my ego now.
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Re: First Job

Post by youhavecontrol »

This is the AvCanada I am getting to know.. I'm glad the radio frequencies aren't this congested with nonsense. ..well, except for ACTPA
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Re: First Job

Post by Rockie »

shimmydampner wrote: Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:48 am However, when it comes to the context of defending their need to feel special, they will bleat on about the problems of complexity making life challenging and difficult. Sure, they are two sides of the same coin, but let’s not be disingenuous here.
Rockie wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:50 pm Using automation properly is a skill. It’s another way of flying the aircraft that’s all. Is it harder than hand flying? Depends entirely on what you’re doing.
I don't know, I thought that comment was pretty clear
shimmydampner wrote: Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:48 am Before becoming a 705, FMS drone, flying from one fully automated approach to the next, I spent years doing fairly hard core bush flying. When I tally up the ledger on both sides, I can certainly say that one is much more challenging than the other.
Curious comment. Have you never done a visual? Ever clicked off the autopilot because what you were doing was far too dynamic to keep up with on the MCP? Ever gotten rid of the AP because...well...it's just easier? Ever got caught with your pants down around your ankles because you were a FMS drone instead of the person supposed to be in control? Ever scratched your head wondering what the airplane was doing when you not only should have known, but should have anticipated? Have you ever, even once in your career as a FMS drone, intervened in the FMS programming by using direct modes on the MCP or even hand flew.


Really, who's being disingenuous here, unless you really are the FMS drone you say you are (I like your self-description better than "Child of the Magenta", but they're the same thing). If that's the case you'd be doing everyone a favour by going back to bush flying.

Automation's real purpose is to make aircraft operation more efficient, not easier. It also allows safe operations in weather conditions unsuitable for hand flying and its necessary visual conditions. It is also very good at mindless level flight and following a predetermined track. It does not however fly the aircraft....that's what you're for.
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Re: First Job

Post by C.W.E. »

I guess this discussion is bound to be subjective and will be looked at based on the equipment you fly and how you fly it.

One of the most risky, difficult flights I can remember was ferrying the PBY we used in the movie " Below " by Merimax from England to Virginia for the new owner.

The route was in four flights London to Wick Scotland which was easy.

Then there were the next three legs that were not so easy weather wise Wick to Keflavik Iceland which was a bit more difficult.

The next leg was the most risky Keflavik to Narsarsuak Greenland due to the height of the Greenland icecap and the quickly changing weather in the summer at Narsarsuak wich can go from CAVU to Zero zero in a very short time span.

The next leg to Goose Bay was a bit easier as there were more alternates should Goose go below limits.

The last leg to Virginia was just normal IFR flying with good weather forecasts and lots of alternates.

Here is why it was difficult.

The airplane is flight planned at 115 knots.

There was no autopilot.

There was no deicing or anti icing on the airplane.

There was no weather radar or strike finder.

Our Nav aids were one ADF and two hand held GPS units.

One very useful items we carried was a Satellite phone for checking weather at the destination when we were of VHF radio communications range.

So is that route more difficult to fly in a B787 or in the PBY?
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Re: First Job

Post by square »

LOL, most people think the best job out of flight school is bush flying?? How exactly do they expect a fresh graduate to get that job instead of working the ramp? Even if you do you won't get it. I've got 7000 hours I can't get a job on floats.
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Re: First Job

Post by C.W.E. »

Does getting the fifty hour seaplane course help getting the first sea plane flying job?











do
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Re: First Job

Post by Rockie »

C.W.E. wrote: Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:55 pmSo is that route more difficult to fly in a B787 or in the PBY?
You can play the anecdotal game all day .. I’d rather do your flight than divert to a Chinese alternate through military airspace after a 15 hour flight in a 787, and spend the next 6 hours negotiating some kind of flight plan to get back to your destination.

Pick a flight...any flight. Someone here that you shit on can do you one better.
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Re: First Job

Post by trey kule »

I'm interested in what people think for what is the best start for Pilots (maybe there isn't one) but I have my own thoughts, I would like to hear yours.

Well, after reading all the relevant responses to your question, it might be the best start not to ask pilots on the internet for sage advice. Unless you think arguing like two starving pit bulls over a pork chop is the best start. :smt040

At the risk of being ironic, if you are young and have no real job experience, go out and just enjoy the flying, build up some work and aviation experience.
As has been pointed out, there are lots of aviation specialities here, but the world is changing and evolving, and success as a pilot will mean adapting to the future, not living in the past...unless flying antique planes (pre Beaver era) is you life goal.
The rush to the right seat in the airlines in your early twenties means about 40 years of flying essentially the same thing subject to future moderization
You will notice here that many of the older posters flew lots of other interesting machines in their careers before the airlines.
The “bush” today is not the bush of the 1960s. And neither are the heavies.
I too agree, and wish that instruction was a career goal, and not a time building exercise, but I am not certain that is a probability
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Re: First Job

Post by square »

C.W.E. wrote: Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:55 pmThen there were the next three legs that were not so easy weather wise Wick to Keflavik Iceland which was a bit more difficult.

The next leg was the most risky Keflavik to Narsarsuak Greenland due to the height of the Greenland icecap and the quickly changing weather in the summer at Narsarsuak wich can go from CAVU to Zero zero in a very short time span.

The next leg to Goose Bay was a bit easier as there were more alternates should Goose go below limits.

The last leg to Virginia was just normal IFR flying with good weather forecasts and lots of alternates.

Here is why it was difficult.

The airplane is flight planned at 115 knots.

There was no autopilot.

There was no deicing or anti icing on the airplane.

There was no weather radar or strike finder.

Our Nav aids were one ADF and two hand held GPS units.

One very useful items we carried was a Satellite phone for checking weather at the destination when we were of VHF radio communications range.

So is that route more difficult to fly in a B787 or in the PBY?
Oh I've done this route! From Luxembourg though through Keflavik and Narsarsuak to ah what do you call it, Fro Bay. Iqaluit I guess now, yeah the approach into Narsarsuaq is a gnarly one you gotta descend real hard and they have three different minimums depending on what kind of missed approach climb gradient you can make right? I would agree the missed approach would be really hard but lol, can you really say doing an approach is really hard? It brings you right in on final for the runway there brother, we're supposed to be good at that. And you had two GPS units? Good lord get down off the cross you're a trades person.
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Re: First Job

Post by C.W.E. »

can you really say doing an approach is really hard? It brings you right in on final for the runway there brother, we're supposed to be good at that. And you had two GPS units? Good lord get down off the cross you're a trades person
.

Where did I mention flying an approach was difficult?

The difficult part was the time element flying at 115 knots, difficult in that the Narsarsuak weather can and does change relatively fast in the summer months.

Maybe difficult is the wrong description?
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Re: First Job

Post by square »

Ah yeah I agree Nars is a rough one, but I think you cruised in their easily come on, you know what speed you were gonna be doing before you left, and I dont think a professional as experienced as yourself would have any trouble with that one. It's just an arc. If you don't see it you'd go to your alternate, right?
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Re: First Job

Post by square »

Meatservo wrote: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:16 am
atphat wrote: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:38 am If a float operator will pay me 200+ a year to work 10 days a month I’ll fly floats.
Oh. And a pension. Benefits. Travel benefits. Good disability. Fair treatment.

I think it is your misunderstanding. No offence to the float guys but I always chuckle when I hear pilots say the airlines aren’t a very good job.
Depends what you call a great job. I admit, lots of money and barely having to lift a finger to a complish anything appeals to a lot of people.

You might ask yourself why anyone would want to be a musician, or a carpenter, or build hot-rods for a living, too, when any of these people are more than smart enough to become an "airline" pilot.

For some people, aviation is more than sitting in a chair in a cheap suit and following rules. There is a physical pleasure in handling an aircraft, particularly on water. There is a sense of accomplishment in staying safe in, shall we say, "austere" conditions. There is a sense of camaraderie among "bush" pilots that you won't find at the "airlines".

Believe it or not, a job, like any number on offer at a popular regional airline I shall not name, where you can sign on with a thousand hours or so of relatively mundane 704 flying under your belt as second in command and a bunch of bogus "pilot in command under supervision" time to boot, and then six months later get upgraded to "captain" because your union number comes up, is not much of an accomplishment. You can drag your wheeled map-case, with no actual maps in it, through a terminal with the gold braid on your cap and the rings that don't even go all the way around your cheap sleeves, and perhaps enjoy the reflected remnants of the respect laypeople have for people like you that was earned by pilots of the past who actually did something worthy of note.

Some people need to feel like they've earned something. You can have your benefits and your union and your "pension", but you're no navigator. You're no adventurer. You're no "commander". If you're even good at flying planes, it's because you do something else with them in your spare time. Some people expect more from their profession. And yes, I fly large jets. I know what I'm talking about.
I don't think you two disagree. Both jobs are great and deserve top compensation!
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Re: First Job

Post by telex »

C.W.E. wrote: Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:55 pm
Here is why it was difficult.

The airplane is flight planned at 115 knots. - A C172 cruises faster than that. Did you find the flying boat a little slippery requiring constant attention?

There was no autopilot. - Would you have dirtied your licence and used it had there been one?! An autopilot is NOT flying!

There was no deicing or anti icing on the airplane. - You were VFR in the summer months? How much ice were you expecting?

There was no weather radar or strike finder. - VFR again? Rules for that I think.

Our Nav aids were one ADF and two hand held GPS units. - You sullied the profession and used technology for your benefit?! The shame...

One very useful items we carried was a Satellite phone for checking weather at the destination when we were of VHF radio communications range. - Overuse of technology adding safety and practicality. I'm not sure you can teach floats this summer after reading the above.

So is that route more difficult to fly in a B787 or in the PBY? - What is with your undying obsession with making things as difficult as possible? Except when it makes sense to use tools to your advantage to make things safer and easier.
Lost lives and destruction of property are not enough reason for you to accept new tools and procedures to enhance and improve safety?

It's already been pointed out that technology isn't much good if it's not understood or used properly. It might even kill you.

Remember the A320 crash in the trees at the airshow in 1988?

Remember the A330 crash on a test flight in 1994?

Look at what a bunch of autopilot dependant hacks who can't fly (or judge sea swells) have accomplished:

Image

Instead of asking who's doing it the most difficult way let's ask who's doing it the smartest way. Still long for the good old days?

I know I got trolled again but this thread is just too good to end!
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Re: First Job

Post by confusedalot »

Love these guys who use boardroom graphs.

Looking at the graph, I was out of school in 1980 and started working with steam driven equipment. 1980 is one of the lowest accident rates. Then, the accident rates goes up, peaking around 1987, where automation was on the upswing and commonly used. Then it starts to go down later.

1980, lower accident rate in steam driven equipment.
1987, higher accident rate with glass cockpit.

Soooo.......what exactly is the point of making a correlation between old and new technology?

If you have ability, it really does not matter whether you have fancy tools or not. If you don't have ability, it really does not matter whether you have fancy tools or not. Same difference. You will end up in the same place, good or bad.

And, why are the tech savvy people putting down the older generation in the first place? Are the tech savvy somehow naturally superior? Perhaps the real heros are the old people who actually developed and implemented the new tech, the newbies are merely users of the equipment and had nothing to do with advancement.
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Re: First Job

Post by telex »

confusedalot wrote: Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:41 pm Love these guys who use boardroom graphs.

Looking at the graph, I was out of school in 1980 and started working with steam driven equipment. 1980 is one of the lowest accident rates. Then, the accident rates goes up, peaking around 1987, where automation was on the upswing and commonly used. Then it starts to go down later.

1980, lower accident rate in steam driven equipment.
1987, higher accident rate with glass cockpit.

Soooo.......what exactly is the point of making a correlation between old and new technology?


If you have ability, it really does not matter whether you have fancy tools or not. If you don't have ability, it really does not matter whether you have fancy tools or not. Same difference. You will end up in the same place, good or bad.

And, why are the tech savvy people putting down the older generation in the first place? Are the tech savvy somehow naturally superior? Perhaps the real heros are the old people who actually developed and implemented the new tech, the newbies are merely users of the equipment and had nothing to do with advancement.
Maybe the same point you made by cherry picking two specific years out of a seventy one year span to make your point?

Read this part again:

"It's already been pointed out that technology isn't much good if it's not understood or used properly. It might even kill you."

See the correlation now? New technology introduced and more people die (ie. lack of understanding of new technology in specific regions where technology was introduced). An understanding of new technology happens and less people die. See?

I recommend you look at the chart as a whole and not by random year pairings. Do you see a trend if you look at it that way? The good old days killed a lot of people.

People that improved things for the better are not heroes but they certainly do deserve recognition. Accepting that current philosophy and procedures are always subject to review for improvement is never a bad idea. Do you know anybody like that here?
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Re: First Job

Post by square »

Dude, do not speak to him that way
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Re: First Job

Post by square »

Pre-script: Of course Rockie was right as he always is, you are a better equipped pilot with automation than you are without. It makes less mistakes than you do. It broadens your ability to scan. It doesn't fly for you but it is kind of like having another free hand and eye.
C.W.E. wrote: Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:25 pm Does getting the fifty hour seaplane course help getting the first sea plane flying job?
Yes! To get back on topic.

If I had 50 I would have been eligible under the insurance to fly seaplanes at two of the companies I worked at and then my seaplane rating would not have been totally for naught LOL. I'm sure I would've got to use it.
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