The pilots have ALPA and ACPA and whatever else is out there working behind the scenes. There is a big difference between working together privately and publicly joining a picket line for a company you don't work at, and a company your employer has no control over. If people see the AC logo somewhere during a demonstration, they would logically assume AC pilots are fighting with management as well and will maybe go on strike too. That will affect AC's sales, even though AC's management has nothing to do with the Westjet trouble.FL410AV8R wrote: ↑Thu May 10, 2018 10:23 pm
Clearly, there is a double standard, companies are seemingly allowed to form their own alliances (unions) such as NACC and ATAC to pursue common agendas outside of commercial competition but when pilots from different companies and/or unions get together it is somehow nefarious.
Vote results.
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Re: Vote results.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: Vote results.
I'm a little surprised at the high vote result, but not completely so. It is, as many have stated here, important to show unity of resolve to strike when going in to negotiate with the company. It shows you're serious.
That said, I think the chance of CB bending to ALPA are somewhere between 0% and 0.000001%. So, what is left is a strike or lockout (my money is on a lockout), that will be followed, at some point, by a legislated return to work. Next, a CBA that pleases no one will be forced upon the two parties but will give ALPA and WJ the opportunity to establish a relationship, and try to negotiate a CBA.
Additionally, there is no chance that the company will succumb to a strike mandate and give in to ALPA's demands. To do so would result in CUPE certifying the FAs overnight and giving their own strike mandate next year.
Let me get of your way while you guys and gals rush off to war.
ta ta
John
That said, I think the chance of CB bending to ALPA are somewhere between 0% and 0.000001%. So, what is left is a strike or lockout (my money is on a lockout), that will be followed, at some point, by a legislated return to work. Next, a CBA that pleases no one will be forced upon the two parties but will give ALPA and WJ the opportunity to establish a relationship, and try to negotiate a CBA.
Additionally, there is no chance that the company will succumb to a strike mandate and give in to ALPA's demands. To do so would result in CUPE certifying the FAs overnight and giving their own strike mandate next year.
Let me get of your way while you guys and gals rush off to war.
ta ta
John
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Re: Vote results.
Maybe John,CB is the actual cause of all of this trouble. What makes you think he is the almighty decision maker anymore?WeedPro2000 wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 3:18 pm I'm a little surprised at the high vote result, but not completely so. It is, as many have stated here, important to show unity of resolve to strike when going in to negotiate with the company. It shows you're serious.
That said, I think the chance of CB bending to ALPA are somewhere between 0% and 0.000001%. So, what is left is a strike or lockout (my money is on a lockout), that will be followed, at some point, by a legislated return to work. Next, a CBA that pleases no one will be forced upon the two parties but will give ALPA and WJ the opportunity to establish a relationship, and try to negotiate a CBA.
Additionally, there is no chance that the company will succumb to a strike mandate and give in to ALPA's demands. To do so would result in CUPE certifying the FAs overnight and giving their own strike mandate next year.
Let me get of your way while you guys and gals rush off to war.
ta ta
John
Have you skimmed any of the numerous financial articles over the past 2 days? Fingers point to a “credibility gap”.....to help you out they are taking aim at CB.
It’s a shame you are one of the 4% of pilots at WJ not willing to stand up for your future John.
Looks like JetBlue is coming to terms with the pilot group. Remember when you use “ALPA” in your post, your taking about your pilot representives at the company. You and Cam should get together to write your next post.
Your the best
Re: Vote results.
Given the latest fiasco with recording the FAs, I'm not sure CUPE needs ALPAs help in this regard.Additionally, there is no chance that the company will succumb to a strike mandate and give in to ALPA's demands. To do so would result in CUPE certifying the FAs overnight and giving their own strike mandate next year.
Re: Vote results.
I can't see it happening. That's a little like committing financial suicide. 10's of millions a day in lost revenue might not go over well with the large institutional investors who now own much more of the company than CB does. This reminds me of the cold war... both sides now have their fingers on the buttons of mutual destruction and both are playing a very high stake game complete with propaganda.WeedPro2000 wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 3:18 pm That said, I think the chance of CB bending to ALPA are somewhere between 0% and 0.000001%. So, what is left is a strike or lockout (my money is on a lockout), that will be followed, at some point, by a legislated return to work. Next, a CBA that pleases no one will be forced upon the two parties but will give ALPA and WJ the opportunity to establish a relationship, and try to negotiate a CBA.
Time will tell.
I'm going to knock this up a notch with my spice weasle. Bam!
Re: Vote results.
You're out to lunch my friend.WeedPro2000 wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 3:18 pm I'm a little surprised at the high vote result, but not completely so. It is, as many have stated here, important to show unity of resolve to strike when going in to negotiate with the company. It shows you're serious.
That said, I think the chance of CB bending to ALPA are somewhere between 0% and 0.000001%. So, what is left is a strike or lockout (my money is on a lockout), that will be followed, at some point, by a legislated return to work. Next, a CBA that pleases no one will be forced upon the two parties but will give ALPA and WJ the opportunity to establish a relationship, and try to negotiate a CBA.
Additionally, there is no chance that the company will succumb to a strike mandate and give in to ALPA's demands. To do so would result in CUPE certifying the FAs overnight and giving their own strike mandate next year.
Let me get of your way while you guys and gals rush off to war.
ta ta
John
CB is not foolish enough to lock out his worker bees. He's also not stupid enough to lose the piles of cash flow a strike would bring, nor tarnish WJ's image with the public. I'll certainly take your money though.
Legislated back to work? hahahahah you're kidding right? The feds do not giving one flying Fark about some little airline based out West. The Libs in Ottawa can barely find Calgary on a map.. If your HQ was in Montreal it might be a different story with a conservative government in power.
The FA's will certify regardless of what happens with the pilot group. I'm actually surprised it hasn't happened after all of the recent shenanigans.
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Re: Vote results.
Legitimate question...
Quote as posted on wjpilotfacts.com:
"Over a five-year term, the increase in costs to the Company of the MEC’s current proposal represents approximately 85 per cent of WestJet’s total net earnings over the last five years. It would largely wipe all profits going forward and make WestJet unable to continue operations."
So unless I'm not understanding something here, WJ is claiming that if they were reduced to 15% of current profits over the next 5 years they would have to cease operations?
Why would a profitable company have to cease operations?
Quote as posted on wjpilotfacts.com:
"Over a five-year term, the increase in costs to the Company of the MEC’s current proposal represents approximately 85 per cent of WestJet’s total net earnings over the last five years. It would largely wipe all profits going forward and make WestJet unable to continue operations."
So unless I'm not understanding something here, WJ is claiming that if they were reduced to 15% of current profits over the next 5 years they would have to cease operations?
Why would a profitable company have to cease operations?
Re: Vote results.
You know what? That’s a good question. Maybe forward it to all of the stock analysts to chew on . They have a direct line to upper management and would have their concerns addressed right away. Should be fun, I’ll make popcorn.BE02 Driver wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 8:06 pm Legitimate question...
Quote as posted on wjpilotfacts.com:
"Over a five-year term, the increase in costs to the Company of the MEC’s current proposal represents approximately 85 per cent of WestJet’s total net earnings over the last five years. It would largely wipe all profits going forward and make WestJet unable to continue operations."
So unless I'm not understanding something here, WJ is claiming that if they were reduced to 15% of current profits over the next 5 years they would have to cease operations?
Why would a profitable company have to cease operations?
Re: Vote results.
Just a guess, but the last 5 years were pretty much the most profitable in the history of airlines, particularly 2015 with the drop in oil prices. The next 5 years will not be so lucrative. Starting with this year, now magnified with this mess.BE02 Driver wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 8:06 pm Legitimate question...
Quote as posted on wjpilotfacts.com:
"Over a five-year term, the increase in costs to the Company of the MEC’s current proposal represents approximately 85 per cent of WestJet’s total net earnings over the last five years. It would largely wipe all profits going forward and make WestJet unable to continue operations."
So unless I'm not understanding something here, WJ is claiming that if they were reduced to 15% of current profits over the next 5 years they would have to cease operations?
Why would a profitable company have to cease operations?
Re: Vote results.
You can't see why wiping out 85% of a company's profits to placate one single employee group is a problem?BE02 Driver wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 8:06 pm Legitimate question...
Quote as posted on wjpilotfacts.com:
"Over a five-year term, the increase in costs to the Company of the MEC’s current proposal represents approximately 85 per cent of WestJet’s total net earnings over the last five years. It would largely wipe all profits going forward and make WestJet unable to continue operations."
So unless I'm not understanding something here, WJ is claiming that if they were reduced to 15% of current profits over the next 5 years they would have to cease operations?
Why would a profitable company have to cease operations?
Dividend cuts, stock price drop, inability to raise financing for future growth and expansion are a few that jump out immediately.
If 85% is accurate someone should have asked ALPA to do a cost analysis before coming up with a proposal and setting up unrealistic expectations within the pilot group. There's the MEC's next challenge, selling the eventual contract to a group that they've riled up.
Re: Vote results.
You don't think ALPA has analyzed and costed all of the numbers?
They have an extremely sophisticated group of experts that does only this, and have done it at far larger and more sophisticated operations. This isn't their first rodeo. They know exactly the landscape.
The 85% number on the corporate propoganda line, and the statement about having to cease operations is obviously bullshit. Industry standard wawcon for 1/10th of the employee group, your most committed employees at that, is not going to shut it down after how many years and hundreds of millions of profit... They are solely trying to make the group uncertain, trying to shake resolve, trying to set in minds that a fair contract is unachievable.
Westjet corporate has obviously decided to go kicking and screaming all the way to this contract, they are just dragging it out, trying to break/test the resolve.
There is no way the Liberals legislate back to work.
1. They aren't the anti-labour Conservatives
2. It's an illegal violation of charter rights
3. Unlike ACPA, ALPA has the resources and the will to challenge it
4. The government doesn't like losing in Supreme Court
They have an extremely sophisticated group of experts that does only this, and have done it at far larger and more sophisticated operations. This isn't their first rodeo. They know exactly the landscape.
The 85% number on the corporate propoganda line, and the statement about having to cease operations is obviously bullshit. Industry standard wawcon for 1/10th of the employee group, your most committed employees at that, is not going to shut it down after how many years and hundreds of millions of profit... They are solely trying to make the group uncertain, trying to shake resolve, trying to set in minds that a fair contract is unachievable.
Westjet corporate has obviously decided to go kicking and screaming all the way to this contract, they are just dragging it out, trying to break/test the resolve.
There is no way the Liberals legislate back to work.
1. They aren't the anti-labour Conservatives
2. It's an illegal violation of charter rights
3. Unlike ACPA, ALPA has the resources and the will to challenge it
4. The government doesn't like losing in Supreme Court
Re: Vote results.
tbaylx wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 2:33 amYou can't see why wiping out 85% of a company's profits to placate one single employee group is a problem?BE02 Driver wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 8:06 pm Legitimate question...
Quote as posted on wjpilotfacts.com:
"Over a five-year term, the increase in costs to the Company of the MEC’s current proposal represents approximately 85 per cent of WestJet’s total net earnings over the last five years. It would largely wipe all profits going forward and make WestJet unable to continue operations."
So unless I'm not understanding something here, WJ is claiming that if they were reduced to 15% of current profits over the next 5 years they would have to cease operations?
Why would a profitable company have to cease operations?
Dividend cuts, stock price drop, inability to raise financing for future growth and expansion are a few that jump out immediately.
If 85% is accurate someone should have asked ALPA to do a cost analysis before coming up with a proposal and setting up unrealistic expectations within the pilot group. There's the MEC's next challenge, selling the eventual contract to a group that they've riled up.
WJPilotfacts.com has agenda to control the message, which it does poorly. It's full of half truths. I don't doubt ALPA proposed the above, much like the company proposing concessions and 19 days worked. However it's all a part of aggressive positioning during negotiations, which both sides have done. In reality ALPA's targeted CBA will not break the company.
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Re: Vote results.
Quote as posted on wjpilotfacts.com: "Over a five-year term, the increase in costs to the Company of the MEC’s current proposal represents approximately 85 per cent of WestJet’s total net earnings over the last five years. It would largely wipe all profits going forward and make WestJet unable to continue operations."
Putting some numbers to this:
Net earnings F2013-17 inclusive (per WestJet 2017 annual report): $1,499,245,000
85% thereof: $1,274,358,250
Annual equivalent over a forward five-year term: $254,871,650
# WestJet pilots (per ALPA): 1,526
Annual forward cost impact per WestJet pilot: $167,019
So from an outsider's perspective: how realistic is it that the MEC's current proposal could have an incremental cost impact (hourly rate increase, scheduling adjustments, duty hour changes, work rules, etc.), of $167,019 per current WestJet pilot for each year over the next five years? If the figure reflects "all WestJet flying to be done by WestJet pilots", and assumes all Encore and Swoop pilots are compensated per Mainline, the number of pilots goes to - what, 1700? - and the per pilot impact goes to $150,000 per annum. How far off the mark? (Note: edited to correct the annual forward cost impact/pilot to $167,019).
Putting some numbers to this:
Net earnings F2013-17 inclusive (per WestJet 2017 annual report): $1,499,245,000
85% thereof: $1,274,358,250
Annual equivalent over a forward five-year term: $254,871,650
# WestJet pilots (per ALPA): 1,526
Annual forward cost impact per WestJet pilot: $167,019
So from an outsider's perspective: how realistic is it that the MEC's current proposal could have an incremental cost impact (hourly rate increase, scheduling adjustments, duty hour changes, work rules, etc.), of $167,019 per current WestJet pilot for each year over the next five years? If the figure reflects "all WestJet flying to be done by WestJet pilots", and assumes all Encore and Swoop pilots are compensated per Mainline, the number of pilots goes to - what, 1700? - and the per pilot impact goes to $150,000 per annum. How far off the mark? (Note: edited to correct the annual forward cost impact/pilot to $167,019).
Last edited by YYZSaabGuy on Sat May 12, 2018 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Vote results.
The industry is forever broken in Canada......good luck
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Re: Vote results.
I suspect you are right, stupidity countering stupidity. Hopefully both sides get down to business in the coming days and hammer out a reasonable deal that deals with Swoop, and gives the pilot the respect they deserve, and the company some breathing room for meaningful growth. Realistically everyone can benefit here if this is done properly....except for maybe the current Swoop pilots.....Transonic wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 6:13 amtbaylx wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 2:33 amYou can't see why wiping out 85% of a company's profits to placate one single employee group is a problem?BE02 Driver wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 8:06 pm Legitimate question...
Quote as posted on wjpilotfacts.com:
"Over a five-year term, the increase in costs to the Company of the MEC’s current proposal represents approximately 85 per cent of WestJet’s total net earnings over the last five years. It would largely wipe all profits going forward and make WestJet unable to continue operations."
So unless I'm not understanding something here, WJ is claiming that if they were reduced to 15% of current profits over the next 5 years they would have to cease operations?
Why would a profitable company have to cease operations?
Dividend cuts, stock price drop, inability to raise financing for future growth and expansion are a few that jump out immediately.
If 85% is accurate someone should have asked ALPA to do a cost analysis before coming up with a proposal and setting up unrealistic expectations within the pilot group. There's the MEC's next challenge, selling the eventual contract to a group that they've riled up.
WJPilotfacts.com has agenda to control the message, which it does poorly. It's full of half truths. I don't doubt ALPA proposed the above, much like the company proposing concessions and 19 days worked. However it's all a part of aggressive positioning during negotiations, which both sides have done. In reality ALPA's targeted CBA will not break the company.
Re: Vote results.
I’m sure the current Swoop pilots will be happy to sit right seat at Encore at the bottom of the list. If not, oh well.
Re: Vote results.
I agree, I wouldn't bother to over analyze either sides 'facts', all these public comments do is tell us that no starting point has been established and actual negotiations haven't taken place.Transonic wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 6:13 am
WJPilotfacts.com has agenda to control the message, which it does poorly. It's full of half truths. I don't doubt ALPA proposed the above, much like the company proposing concessions and 19 days worked. However it's all a part of aggressive positioning during negotiations, which both sides have done. In reality ALPA's targeted CBA will not break the company.
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Re: Vote results.
Your buying into the lies. If you really researched the numbers there is no way the pilots would cost an increase of 85%! What do we cost the company now? It’s between 2-3% of yearly costs.tbaylx wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 2:33 amYou can't see why wiping out 85% of a company's profits to placate one single employee group is a problem?BE02 Driver wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 8:06 pm Legitimate question...
Quote as posted on wjpilotfacts.com:
"Over a five-year term, the increase in costs to the Company of the MEC’s current proposal represents approximately 85 per cent of WestJet’s total net earnings over the last five years. It would largely wipe all profits going forward and make WestJet unable to continue operations."
So unless I'm not understanding something here, WJ is claiming that if they were reduced to 15% of current profits over the next 5 years they would have to cease operations?
Why would a profitable company have to cease operations?
Dividend cuts, stock price drop, inability to raise financing for future growth and expansion are a few that jump out immediately.
If 85% is accurate someone should have asked ALPA to do a cost analysis before coming up with a proposal and setting up unrealistic expectations within the pilot group. There's the MEC's next challenge, selling the eventual contract to a group that they've riled up.
In saying that, the math doesn’t add up. I get it, your not an ALPA supporter, but it’s your responsibility to find out the truth. Call CAM, ask him about his math. It’s lies to divide the group. Simple
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Re: Vote results.
I for got ask. Please provide me an example of a pilot contract that has bankrupted an airplane.tbaylx wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 2:33 amYou can't see why wiping out 85% of a company's profits to placate one single employee group is a problem?BE02 Driver wrote: ↑Fri May 11, 2018 8:06 pm Legitimate question...
Quote as posted on wjpilotfacts.com:
"Over a five-year term, the increase in costs to the Company of the MEC’s current proposal represents approximately 85 per cent of WestJet’s total net earnings over the last five years. It would largely wipe all profits going forward and make WestJet unable to continue operations."
So unless I'm not understanding something here, WJ is claiming that if they were reduced to 15% of current profits over the next 5 years they would have to cease operations?
Why would a profitable company have to cease operations?
Dividend cuts, stock price drop, inability to raise financing for future growth and expansion are a few that jump out immediately.
If 85% is accurate someone should have asked ALPA to do a cost analysis before coming up with a proposal and setting up unrealistic expectations within the pilot group. There's the MEC's next challenge, selling the eventual contract to a group that they've riled up.