Emirates

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mixturerich
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Re: Emirates

Post by mixturerich »

Thank you MattK for such a comprehensive, unemotional, and unbiased answer! That’s what I was looking for. For people I know personally, I would say that leaving an Express carrier for EK would be a completely bonkers decision.
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Re: Emirates

Post by complexintentions »

Eric Janson wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 12:46 am
Another alternative is to get an EASA ATPL and transfer your ratings over. Those people who are able to obtain an EU passport or who speak the local language would have an extra advantage.

There are numerous DEC positions available in Europe including jobs that allow commuting and companies that fly to Canada. Much shorter to commute to Canada trans Atlantic vs trans Pacific. Plus you are living in a part of the world with things like a functioning legal system and labour laws. Plenty of nice places to live imho.

Going West out of Dubai may be better than going further East - it comes down to individual preference.
Funnily enough, this is what I've done, gotten my EASA license and transitioning to Euroland. But you do tend to make it sound far easier than it is:

- obtaining the EASA is a horrid process, not really feasible for many expats on heavy rosters for the time investment required. Not to mention the expense, albeit less of a factor for a ME expat. But it's an absolutely ridiculous system, really, an illustration of everything that's wrong with the EU.

- either you have an EU passport or you don't, but they don't just give you one because you want it.

- please feel free to list links to these "numerous" DEC jobs in Europe. I know of a couple, but "numerous" is stretching it. Unless you're including all the eastern European ULCC's ordering tons of narrowbodies to pay next to nothing. But widebody DEC's?

- for an even shorter list, please provide one of positions that pay even remotely well. Not expecting mainland China wages, but ones where you could actually save enough to retire in a high-taxation jurisdiction.

Not arguing with your premise overall - I'm doing exactly what you describe. It just seems a bit glib about the process.
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Re: Emirates

Post by confusedalot »

Things have certainly changed a lot very recently, but a mere 5 years ago, you had european pilots taking short term contacts in Canada ostensibly because they could not find anything at home. Flew with many of them, they did not paint a rosy picture, they told it like it is, and, although having an EU passport is a minimum requirement, sounds like WHERE your EU passport comes from and WHERE you want to work is a bit of a factor. Lots of selective behind the scenes processes going on it seems.

Don't have an EU passport so getting an EASA licence was pointless. However, being born into a family of european immigrants with extended family in ''the old country'' and having traveled a fair bit, I get what the europeans were telling me. Not as simple as you might think.
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Re: Emirates

Post by Eric Janson »

complexintentions wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 5:53 pm
Funnily enough, this is what I've done, gotten my EASA license and transitioning to Euroland. But you do tend to make it sound far easier than it is:

- obtaining the EASA is a horrid process, not really feasible for many expats on heavy rosters for the time investment required. Not to mention the expense, albeit less of a factor for a ME expat. But it's an absolutely ridiculous system, really, an illustration of everything that's wrong with the EU.

- either you have an EU passport or you don't, but they don't just give you one because you want it.

- please feel free to list links to these "numerous" DEC jobs in Europe. I know of a couple, but "numerous" is stretching it. Unless you're including all the eastern European ULCC's ordering tons of narrowbodies to pay next to nothing. But widebody DEC's?

- for an even shorter list, please provide one of positions that pay even remotely well. Not expecting mainland China wages, but ones where you could actually save enough to retire in a high-taxation jurisdiction.

Not arguing with your premise overall - I'm doing exactly what you describe. It just seems a bit glib about the process.
@Complex

Hope that things work out for you.

Thanks for providing more info. My post was very general in nature. Not trying to be glib - just pointing out that there are other options besides China for those looking to get out of Emirates.

Up to each individual to decide if this is worth it taking all factors into account.

It is possible to obtain an EU passport/Residency by investing money in a country - this is out of reach of most people. It is possible to apply for citizenship after 5 years of legal residence in the country where I live - in fact a lot of Brits living here are doing that. Difficult but not impossible if your company sponsors you.

You are correct that I didn't specify widebody DEC positions - Norwegian, Eurowings, Air Belgium and HiFly are 4 that I know about. As for Eastern European LCC's - they pay really well if you are TRI/TRE. Plenty of DEC hiring going on - for how much longer is anyone's guess.
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Re: Emirates

Post by mushr00m »

I'm at EK right now and have been for 10yrs...MattK you nailed it!

@Complex: Where did you convert your ATPL? What do you figure average all in cost in $ and time? PM if you wish but I think others should be informed as well.

Cheers,

Mushroom
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Re: Emirates

Post by complexintentions »

I just studied the question databases to write the 14 exams, which I wrote in the UK and Malaysia at the CAA exam centre there (think they have one in Dubai too?). I used Bristol and AviationExam, the former is more UK-centric and the latter encompasses all of the EASA member states. I think some of the questions are machine-translated from Hungarian or something. Each of those databases contains about 15,000 questions. Complete nonsense.

You can only do an initial class 1 medical in the UK.

I wanted to put a B777/787 type on the license so I contacted Boeing at LHR/LGW but they said they were too busy doing company training to do individual type checks so I did my LST in the B777-200LR sim at Cockpit4U in Berlin (division of Lufty). Best money I spent, since the Germans absolutely killed it with all of the ridiculous paperwork required. No surprise there I guess.

All in spent around 10K Canadian or about £7000 - not including travel, hotel, meal etc expenses.

Time? I chipped away at it for the better part of a year on days off. Someone not lazy, unlike me, could do it in less. I'm ex-EK but I'm not sure I could have done it while I was there on those rosters.

The process was the worst aviation experience I've had in my career. Including multiple layoffs. Frankly if I'd known quite how stupid the process was I'd have never started it, but once I start something I'm kinda stubborn. But it's so infinitely wasteful of time and money. That's the EU in a nutshell. Corrupt to the core. Everyone preaches standardization and ICAO but possessing several ICAO licenses isn't enough - they can't make any money off that.
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Re: Emirates

Post by Eric Janson »

Here’s a good tip for those people who hold or who are going to get an EASA Licence.

Once you have the Licence you can transfer it between countries. My understanding is that Ireland is a good option with Germany being the worst. I’m not familiar with the process - I work with colleagues who have done this.

Personally I hold a British passport and fly Portuguese registered aircraft on a Dutch issued EASA ATPl.
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Re: Emirates

Post by complexintentions »

Which state you are considered licensed in is determined by which country issues you your medical.

I considered trying to do my conversion through the Czech Republic. Before I learned how it all "works", I igured I could write a few exams there while on my frequent visits, and some in the UK. Except, while exams CAN be written in one state for a license issued in another, you have to write all the exams in the same state. Czech - being a much smaller country - has quite limited exam sessions each month, while the UK has multiple sessions at multiple sites. A big factor for someone attempting a conversion while working full-time. And in each country, while the exams themselves are in English, all the administration (booking, payment etc) is in the local language which could also be cumbersome for native English speakers. In the end I went with the UK because it had the best options to fit my circumstances and is highly regarded. EASA licenses are supposed to be equal, and legally are, but to paraphrase Orwell, some are more equal than others...

Just points to consider.
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Re: Emirates

Post by Eric Janson »

One more thing to consider with a UK Licence:-

Not clear what effect BREXIT will have and whether the UK is still going to be part of EASA.
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complexintentions
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Re: Emirates

Post by complexintentions »

Eric Janson wrote: Wed May 23, 2018 9:17 am One more thing to consider with a UK Licence:-

Not clear what effect BREXIT will have and whether the UK is still going to be part of EASA.
EASA may be an agency of the EU but the two are by no means synonymous. You do realize there are already EASA members who are not in the EU, right?

There may be specific reasons to pursue an EASA ATPL in another specific member state, but I’d place post-Brexit very low on the list of worries. The CAA UK license was highly regarded long before they joined the EU and I highly doubt it will suddenly stop being so if/when they ever leave.

But if it is a concern, by all means pursue it in another state. Just be sure to not pick one of the several others also not so keen to remain in the triumph of bureaucracy that is the European Union, like Italy, Hungary, etc... :mrgreen:
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Re: Emirates

Post by mushr00m »

Thanks for the info....

Mushr00m...
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Re: Emirates

Post by avtutor »

Very interesting thread. Good to hear the real-life experiences of Complex and Eric J. I am a British-born Canadian with about 10,000 hrs in the 737NG, about 60% of that in the LHS. I’ve always considered getting the EASA licence as a backup plan, but am now thinking about it more seriously considering the constant race to the proverbial bottom here in Canada . I enjoy flying over there, but from looking around a bit in the EU the grass doesn’t really seem greener—isn’t it just more ULCC DEC stuff there too or “legacy” (if that term really exists anymore) RHS positions? Would hate to invest all that time only to find the same dead ends. What a career we are in.
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Re: Emirates

Post by Joe Blow Schmo »

Complex,

The EASA license is something I’ve started to consider as well.

You were able to write the exams after only self study? There is no requirement for any sort of approved course?

Is the only flying requirement the type rating sim check on the aircraft you want on the license?

No way to get credit for any of the exams?

Do some countries make it easier than others?
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Re: Emirates

Post by FlyB »

Any updates to work life at Emirates?

Changes for the better or worse?

Thanks
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Re: Emirates

Post by Eric Janson »

https://voiceofthemarkets.blogspot.com/ ... le-to.html

Good reading for anyone thinking of heading out that way.

You won't read very much of this in the local papers - even PPRuNe is still blocked.
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Re: Emirates

Post by confusedalot »

Eric Janson wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:14 am https://voiceofthemarkets.blogspot.com/ ... le-to.html

Good reading for anyone thinking of heading out that way.

You won't read very much of this in the local papers - even PPRuNe is still blocked.
Quite an eye opener. Are the good times over, so to speak?
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Re: Emirates

Post by Eric Janson »

From the same website:-

https://voiceofthemarkets.blogspot.com/ ... azine.html

https://voiceofthemarkets.blogspot.com/ ... se-is.html

There are still plenty of construction projects that are partially completed and further work has stopped completely. Saw it with my own eyes last week.

Property prices are falling - it's a new market so nobody really knows the true value of property. Plenty of property on offer from what I have seen.

There is an ongoing Expat exodus - mostly white collar workers.

War in Yemen still ongoing - there will be blowback for the UAE.

PPRuNe still blocked in some locations in Dubai but working normally in others.

The party has been over for quite some time imho. People are only now waking up to reality.
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Re: Emirates

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Meh.

The party isn't over because it never was a party. You of all people know that expat life is never a picnic.

I've had lots of friends leave EK, I left myself, but I still know more than a few flying there and they're fine. Still raking in the big tax-free income. Granted, they have great seniority which helps their lifestyle, but no, not everyone is leaving. Emirates rosters are still a grind, but the place is still a great setup for some, and a nightmare for others. Such as it ever was.

When I was there the threat was war between Iran and Israel. Websites were blocked. Expats shrugged and worked around it. Still do.

A construction bust? OOOooooh. Scary. Except, I observed firsthand the GFC in 2008 when property values dropped 60%. Life went on, growth paused and then took off again. It's an incredibly volatile place, that's not new. Boom, bust, repeat. And neither is huge sovereign indebtedness unique to the region. Look around the world. Dubai owes 20b USD to Abu Dhabi - hell that's just one Liberal budget deficit. Ontario public debt - 350b CAD.

Sorry Eric, you're entitled to your well-known personal dislike of the ME but nothing you've stated is particularly remarkable or different. Including using caution approaching ANY expat job.
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Re: Emirates

Post by Eric Janson »

complexintentions wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:08 am Sorry Eric, you're entitled to your well-known personal dislike of the ME but nothing you've stated is particularly remarkable or different. Including using caution approaching ANY expat job.
Well - there's this:-

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47862596

Some interesting links in the BBC article to other 'events' that have taken place in Dubai.

Some more reading (the fact that this organisation exists says more about the place than anything I could post imho).

https://www.detainedindubai.org/

The case studies are quite an eye opener.
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Re: Emirates

Post by complexintentions »

You're only proving my point, which was that such nonsense has existed in Dubai for ages, and yet life goes on. I'm pretty sure that the UAE isn't the only place in the world where people are being detained on specious and unjust grounds. Not that that makes it ok, but the fact that you regularly single it out leads me to believe you may be projecting your own bias a tad. :roll:

As keen as you are to be alarmist about Dubai, if I can live there for a decade and not end up in jail, anyone can. :mrgreen:
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