Air Canada's Embraer ERJ-175

Flywest · Post by **Flywest** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:29 am

Dude you really need a hobby.

thrust set · Post by **thrust set** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:32 am

"Actually Thrust Set, it would not be adding to the fleet, simply exchanging existing fins. I would think that Teplitski does not apply in this case. However, I could be completely wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. "

Would we care if the Jazz group exchanged our 25 CRJ100's for 25 CRJ 705's? You bet your little jungle jet we would. But it's just exchanging fins you say. Milton at one of his "galas" giving a speech not to long ago mention the sale of a percentage of Jazz and he said the comment of Jazz is becoming the fastest expanding part of ACE into a National airline. I have to walk a fine line with a family member in Jazz and loyalty to my employer here I just have to say we messed up allowing Jazz to fly longer routes with that stretched CRJ. Calgary to Houston a regional route? The info I seen was that 705 can make it from Houston to Calgary (over 1500 nm ) full load using Winnipeg as an alternate if needed.

"The thing to remember also is that the only reason we have Teplitski in the first place, is not so much to with ALPA as much as it is to do with our friend Calin, who as a lawyer signed two contracts with two groups at the same time."

You didn't think Milton was aware of that? The Jazz group with their status pay positions had the whole management team smiling. If want to feel better thinking it's all ok Calin is gone, everything is going to be smelling like roses I have some lake front property down in New Orleans for sale. Don't get me wrong I'm just a little pissed off that we make progress with negotiations with the Jazz group in bad times only to find us ignoring them in good times. So typical of our union.

"I am sorry to hear about your bro. I don't understand that one especially as according to RB211 he should be an automatic hire being related to an Air Canada pilot. Jazz is still a good place to be, in my opinion."

Thanks, I feel worse than he does . But he is very optimistic about Jazz that's what scares me come contact time in three and a half years. What will we give up to not allowing them to expand (i.e. ..scope ) or even trying to keep their "paws" off the Embraer?

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:19 am

Flywest wrote:Dude you really need a hobby.

What're you talking about?

This IS my hobby.

Flywest · Post by **Flywest** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:53 am

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:50 am

Hey Thrust Set

I hear what your saying but the buck has to stop somewhere. If we are so frightened about having all our flying farmed out to Jazz, what is to stop Milton from farming all the Jazz flying to CMA and then from CMA to Perimeter and so on. It would seem to me that BOTH Jazz and Mainline need to start looking past their noses on this issue.

You are right, YYC-IAH is not a connector or feeder route, neither is YYZ-DFW. That is what I have maintained all along. I also have always thought the BAe 146 was a better regional airplane because even with no reverse it gets in and out of shorter runways than an RJ. The airline was in CCAA at the time all this went down also. Now with stock trading at almost 40 bucks and a few billion in the bank, I hope the association says ok, enough. Maybe the vote down of the 777/787 deal has shown the collective feelings of the pilot group.

The next few years will be challenging ones as wages get re negogiated next year, the cargo wet lease expires the following year and then the contract is up in 2009.

I don't believe that a CRR200 to a 705 is a simple fin exchange. That would be like swapping an Embraer for a 320. Remember, the deal was for 190's the 175 became available as an after thought.

If Jazz is hell bent on racing to the bottom, I only have one peice of advice, beware of what you wish for. I am sure anyone with some intelligence can see what Milton is up to. I wish ACPA and ALPA could just stop pissing in each others cereal bowl.

thrust set · Post by **thrust set** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:29 am

"You are right, YYC-IAH is not a connector or feeder route, neither is YYZ-DFW. "

That's my point as well, you have the CRJ 705 aircraft doing longer blocks in October of YYC-IAH/ YYZ-IAH /YYZ-YQR/YYZ-YXE/YWG-YOW/YWG-YYZ/YWG-YUL so where has our association lost track of what is a mainline route and what is not one. Because over the last several years it became quite evident that no group be it Jazz or Air Canada owns anything. To our dismay the company is going to "right size " the route for the aircraft. And my feeling is if we move away from the EMB-175 exchanging them for 190's then the Jazz group will find away to include it into their scope clause on us. And much to our liking we will be prevented from operating below 75 seats again. Case in point we could never get anymore CL-65's (I know you say who wants them anyway ) but it was the basis of their scope.

Another point is that several of these longer routes have very little connections on them and the little "feeder / connector" is flying bigger aircraft on more point to point destinations (ie new service from Vancouver to San Diego in Dec.) and the term "regional" is being replaced with National Airline.

"I don't believe that a CRJ200 to a 705 is a simple fin exchange. That would be like swapping an Embraer for a 320. Remember, the deal was for 190's the 175 became available as an after thought.

The 175's became an after thought because Teplitsky arbitrated it that way 15 EMB 170's (which became 175's ) and 45 EMB 190's. Remember the company really wanted Jazz to have 30 of those CRJ 705's (which is really a 90 seat aircraft with 75 seats). I say be happy we have the EMB 175 or just as easily Jazz will be asking for more CRJ 705's.

Don't get me wrong I'm glad for the parent company that it is all working out, but for both pilots on either side of the fence we have to stop this bull@#% and work together. There is a time frame we have to be aware of. Just how many newhires can we put on our list before we think it's time to "invite" the Jazz group to the BOTL of every newhire in the country. My point is we need leadership from the top to say to our members "let's get it done" or "it's not in our best interest" and then live with the consequences because our last memo with the three demands for the Jazz group collectively just pushed them away.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 6:39 am

Thrust set said " Just how many newhires can we put on our list before we think it's time to "invite" the Jazz group to the BOTL of every newhire in the country."

Apparantly over 600 within the next couple of years. Jazz already has the bottom of the list. In my view, if it ain't broke don't fix it. There will always be a mainline and a feeder. You can call it what ever you whant, it's still a feeder. Why would RM want to deal with one big group when he can play with two different ones? And that's just fine by me.

Gurundu the Rat · Post by **Gurundu the Rat** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 9:58 am

There will never be one group. We fcuked it up when we had the chance! Jazz is already at the bottom so a race to the bottom doesn't hurt us. The bottom just becomes a little bigger every time. You bet your a$$ we'll get more 705 flying; they're being built as we speak! Something else you can count on is loosing the Embraers sometime in the future. Thats right, your boss loves our a$$! Too bad global solution is dead. Too little too late. So when Jazz gets more jets you only have ACPA to blame for slaming the door.
And tonysoprano, you're dillusional if you think it ain't broke.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:51 am

Ah, the Gurundu dream is alive and well. Nothing wrong with dreams if that's all you have. Whatever makes you happy. Sure take the Emb's as well. And while you're at it, I think you would look pretty good in that 320. It's just a matter of TIME. Yep. ALL mainline pilots will become regional pilots, if they accept. If not, see ya. And all JAZZ pilots will fly that "heavy" metal. It only makes sense. Whatever Robert wants, Robert gets. Oh, one more thing, I wouldn't admit that your boss loves your a$$. It might give the wrong impression.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:59 am

I just spent 2 days flying with a sharp guy who was saying that actually it is not the pilots at Jazz that are cheaper for ACE but the F/A's and agents. Wage and pension differences are quite large.

Gurundu, your last post surprised me. I was thinking it was being written by someone else under your name. Not the usual caliber for you. One big problem with the failure of the " Global Solution" is the apparent wording in ALPA's constitution that does not require them to bring anything to the membership for a vote. So unless any deal stifies your senior minority, the majority will never have a say.

thrust set · Post by **thrust set** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:57 pm

"Apparently over 600 within the next couple of years. Jazz already has the bottom of the list. In my view, if it ain't broke don't fix it. There will always be a mainline and a feeder. You can call it what ever you want, it's still a feeder. Why would RM want to deal with one big group when he can play with two different ones? And that's just fine by me."

Ask yourself what did the Jazz group give up during CCAA, was it anywhere near what ACPA gave up? Granted I put on a brave face and say I took one for the team. But everytime I saw a Regional operator fly a CRJ I wondered what are we doing wrong. I tend to think the same when I now see the Regional operators fly the Embraer. You have to have your head in the sand if you think it's going to get a hell of a lot better.

I mentioned in a post my little brother is now forging a career at Jazz with his pay almost to where it was before CCAA. Now mine on the other hand is about 20% less, go figure. RM likes having two pilot groups fight over what work has to be done. And for the record Teplitsky heard both sides on Friday and will make his ruling by Thursday over Jazz getting more CRJ 200's. The company also laid it's card down as well about the possibility's of exercising more options for the 705.

Yup Tony put that thick head of your deep in the sand all the problems will go away.

"I just spent 2 days flying with a sharp guy who was saying that actually it is not the pilots at Jazz that are cheaper for ACE but the F/A's and agents. Wage and pension differences are quite large"

Staus pay over there makes your last post irrelevant. Will you make about 99/hour to fly that Jungle jet. I don't think so. But they on the other hand Jazz don't have to lower their pay we will have to lower ours. That's my point, I truly feel the EMB aircraft will be in the Mainline for a very long time but for what price are we giving up.

Gurundu the Rat · Post by **Gurundu the Rat** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:57 pm

I think the GS is dead because of ACPAs three preconditions for even talking to ALPA. How can we reach an agreement if one group has preconditions to even sit down and talk like adults? It is beyond me. So in light of that, we have chosen not to resolve the problem this time around and we will have to live with whatever consequences that holds down the road. I'm not telling you I want Jazz to grow at ACs expence. I'm just saying that it's inevitable looking ahead that Jazz will go after the Embraers. I don't necessarily think this is a good thing, but it will happen. The writing is on the wall.

And while you're at it, I think you would look pretty good in that 320

Don't you worry, I don't really care what I fly, I have status pay and work for days off and pay, which is only going to go down on both sides so long as the status quo remains. That's why I want a GS. Not to go fly a big shiny jet with a gay paint job (no offence to whoever came up with that color).

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:38 pm

Thrust set.
You're absolutely right. We did give up more than Jazz. They have always had the better contract. I know I was there. Maybe you should go work for them. I don't lose any sleep over what Jazz gets or wants and I suggest you shouldn't either. Let them expand. I'm not counting airplanes or routes. Next year, we get to revisit the salary issue. We probably won't be as lucky as Jazz, right? We have so bad.

balls · Post by **balls** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:54 pm

Gurundu the Rat wrote:I think the GS is dead because of ACPAs three preconditions for even talking to ALPA. How can we reach an agreement if one group has preconditions to even sit down and talk like adults? It is beyond me. So in light of that, we have chosen not to resolve the problem this time around and we will have to live with whatever consequences that holds down the road. I'm not telling you I want Jazz to grow at ACs expence. I'm just saying that it's inevitable looking ahead that Jazz will go after the Embraers. I don't necessarily think this is a good thing, but it will happen. The writing is on the wall.
And while you're at it, I think you would look pretty good in that 320
Don't you worry, I don't really care what I fly, I have status pay and work for days off and pay, which is only going to go down on both sides so long as the status quo remains. That's why I want a GS. Not to go fly a big shiny jet with a gay paint job (no offence to whoever came up with that color).

Rat:

GS was never alive!

ACPA tried to talk your reps, or some sort of dialogue at least, but there is always a kicker with your guys. So why even bother going to the table any more? At least with the declaration of ACPA everyone knows where we stand, and it is the same as it has been for years! There IS not sense in talking, and there has not been any for a very long time. It is total waste of time and energy, so there really is no need to overspeed on this.

You, ALPA, will fight for what you think your people should get, and likewise so will ACPA for the AC pilots. We will not negotiate for you any longer, such as LOU 18, and there should be not priority for Jazz pilots to come to AC either. I doubt that anyone would cry a tear of the conditions of LOU 18 disappeared, but I doubt too that anyone will spend energy trying to cancel that from the contract.

It seems to me that the Jazz folks dwell on the mainline, and what you can do to screw us. On this side, the Jazz operation bears little upon the cockpit conversation one way or another. I have been continually denied the jumpseat on Jazz, and have actually only used it twice out of more than a dozen requests. I have NEVER denied a Jazz pilot the jumpseat if that was due to them. It's sad, but you folks really seem to have a hate on for the mainline types, and work harder at escalating the antagonism that anyone that I know or have heard about at the mainline doing in reverse.

Carry on man, with your fight for more flying. If the company figures that is the way to go, great.

I want someone to pay me off to leave so I don't have to listen you whining about getting my job, the flight attendants fighting for control of the aircraft and Captain wages, or everyone wanting to be the boss til the shit really hits the fan and you can't find a boss for nuthin'. Types like you make me very bitter. Your view of the world is really twisted, and not at all reflective of the true nature of how the relationship between Jazz/connector/regionnal/feeder airlines has progress with the mainline. Tweedle-dumber, you have re-written history to your rosey coloured world, through the looking glass.

Grind away on your 705's dude, and have a great career plunkin' around the place in a wanna be DC9. I'll be happy to be outta here asap to be rid of rat's like you call yourself.

grammar boy · Post by **grammar boy** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 8:58 pm

Ladies and Germs:

This is what ails Big Red...

Everyone wants to fu$k everyone else.

balls · Post by **balls** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 7:39 am

grammar boy wrote:Ladies and Germs:

This is what ails Big Red...

Everyone wants to fu$k everyone else.

Correct-a-mundo, starting with the CEO of ACE, all the way down. The AC trickle down policy of screwing by example. There are stories abounding of AC managers that consider entitlement to privileges above the peon-class. It is worse that the Liberal party that set a federal example of screwing from the top. AC Mainline Pilots are the beeatches at the bottom of the food chain in the AC world.

The Rat is right in one area...the Jazz pilots are the golden boys, and mainline pilots are shit in management eyes. We are reminded of that frequently and at every opportunity AC has to frustrate, fracture, divide, screw and cheat us out of time and pay. For starters, Jazz pilots have improved their working conditions lately with the 200% and 300% overtime pay for working days off. We have 125% and probably have to fight to get that paid up, and more demands for concessions, and constant flagrant abuse of the ACPA contract.

Flywest · Post by **Flywest** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:27 am

Another successful hijack of what was an informative AC thread.

Gurundu the Rat · Post by **Gurundu the Rat** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:42 am

ACPA tried to talk your reps, or some sort of dialogue at least, but there is always a kicker with your guys.

What was the kicker balls? you seem to be in the know. The only kicker I hear of from here are the three preconditions to talk which come from ACPA.

Don't you think you could also get 200-300% OT paid if we got together? To me it's not about stealing your flying, it's about doing what's best for everyone. It's too bad some people can't see the big picture of where all this is going. Lets stop being a bunch of politicians and do what is right in the long term. Not just a short term patch.

balls · Post by **balls** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:59 am

Flywest wrote:Another successful hijack of what was an informative AC thread.

Yeh, well, any conversation wanders, and is dynamic as any one would have in person for example. It's not hard to head off on tangents, and a 4 page thread on any forum will eventually, and die a natural death that threads do! Move on.

balls · Post by **balls** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:31 am

Gurundu the Rat wrote:
ACPA tried to talk your reps, or some sort of dialogue at least, but there is always a kicker with your guys.
What was the kicker balls? you seem to be in the know. The only kicker I hear of from here are the three preconditions to talk which come from ACPA.

Don't you think you could also get 200-300% OT paid if we got together? To me it's not about stealing your flying, it's about doing what's best for everyone. It's too bad some people can't see the big picture of where all this is going. Lets stop being a bunch of politicians and do what is right in the long term. Not just a short term patch.

I am accused of hijacking the thread!! Geez. s...it happens. Oh well.....

Kickers? Well, I don't want to replay the whole scenario, in detail, from pre-Picher to now if that is what you are asking.

Your view of the world is quite clearly very different than mine, and how all the events unfolded. I can see numerous mistakes on all sides, but you appear to have one focus of your vitriol, and that is ACPA.

The term feeder airline was commonly used, and like many other words that were useful descriptions seems to have become somehow un-PC. Originally there were far more players than just AC CALPA and the then so called feeders or connectors is that is offensive to you. Your view of history fails to recognize that point in the numerous threads and posting that you've contributed on this topic.

The 'connector' airlines were originally welcomed into CALPA, with some trepidation and concern, as brothers. Those fears were overcome by the feeling that the entire body would be stronger for unification. This is exactly the sense you are trying to convey with your idealism about GS, and what Jazz pilots are now proposing in a GS.

From Jazz pilots there is a constant whine about being let down by the AC pilots. Maybe, but the history of court proceedings has dealt with that. The matter-of-fact manner that Jazz pilots insist that a deal was broken, also neglects to give the detail on how that backroom deal was made. It certainly was not made with the approval or knowledge of the mainline majority of the time. Anyway, as I said, that was legally dealt with.

The AO civil suit? Well who knows. I haven't heard anything concrete on that for a very long time despite the innuendo from Jazz pilots. I am not losing any sleep over that. Even in the Jazz ranks the AO types are pretty generally dissed in my circle of current and ex-Jazz pilot aquaintances. The civil suit is certainly a factor in that internal Jazz relationship, too.

There has been no court, not even the court of public (pilot) opinion raised, and little said about how the Jazz pilots were the major catalyst, and certainly the last word, in finalizing the split of the union. Now, you want to bring us all back under one umbrella. That is idealist as hell, and would be a repeat of what happened.

The history was a disaster for the mainline from the get-go, as flying, routes and jobs disappeared from the mainline depsite constant assurances from AC management that would not happen. It did, and the protectionist sentiments in CALPA started to cause rifts. The 'brotherhood' that AC CALPA and maybe the CDN CALPA locals envisioned were idealistic pipedreams, just as the GS unification one is now. AC pilots took a chance in voting the feeder pilots of the time into the union, and got very badly burned. Your view, and that of many others totally fails to acknowledge or recognize that.

Over the whole history is has become clear that there are many groups that want to get what the mainline pilots have. The flight attendants rode the pilots' coattails be negotiating a me too clause in their contract that made it very difficult for the pilots to effectively have to negotiate for the all the unions at the mainline. The connector pilots coveted the larger types, and more routes, and the only thing that held that somewhat in check was the work protection clause that ACPA managed to negotiate.

The me too clause doesn't work in reverse we see after ACPA takes the brunt of the shitkicking from AC. The scope clause was disintegrated by Rovinescu in a back room deal with Jazz at the same time the GS talks were taking place.

During the GS talks of two years ago, the real kicker, after virtual agreement on the principle was the insistence by ALPA that ALPA represent the combined group - without a representation vote. Right off, that would not be possible under the ACPA Constitution. That was a deal killer, and I believe that ALPA knew that. Over the entire history of the numerous times that CALPA, and ACPA, the ALPA and ACPA talked, there have been ample opportunities to do a deal.

Prior to the decertification of the AC CALPA to ACPA, there were numerous opportunities for AC pilots to remain in CALPA that were kiboshed by the political controllers of CALPA at the time. THAT was done by the connector airlines.

The feeder airlines did not want to allow a fair representation of the AC pilots within that union. They had about 700 pilots on multiple bases, against the 2100 on 4 bases at the time in AC. The power of the base votes cancelled out the 4 bases of AC. CDN had the deciding votes that could have kept AC in CALPA. There was some very nasty backroom politics that came into play as part of the AC-CDN ill will related in large part to the activities around 1992.

On the pay issue, I say, goodonya boys. Go for it. That is your contract, your negotiating skill, and the willingness of AC to work with you - getting far more in the end with a bit of co-operation, I'm sure, than with the antagonism they are displaying to the ACPA pilots. AC has locked in NO votes on pretty much anything that comes to the table. Maybe that is the goal on management's part. The divide and conquer is working well for them. The comments about your luck and our shit is merely jealousy on my part. Where is our me too clause?

Flywest · Post by **Flywest** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:49 am

Speaking of moving on.

Big Pistons Forever · Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:49 am

When I started in the firebombing business in 1998 our top pay scale (4 yr) DC6 FO's made less than half the money of a 4 yr AC 320 FO. Today after our union pushed hard for better pay(by comparing our pay to others including AC), on any reasonably busy year we can make aproximately the same in the 4 month operating season as a 320 driver does flying the whole year. AC terms and conditions sets the bar for everyone else, so I am not looking forward to our next contract talks. I have a bad feeling our management is going to take a page out of RM's playbook

To the rest of you pilots not at AC or JAZZ who think this debate does not concern you-think again.

Flywest · Post by **Flywest** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:56 pm

I completely agree with you BPF. I am well aware of the dynamics of contract negotiations, and the trickle down effect that contracts signed at major carriers can (but don't necessarily have to depending on the situation) have on the outcome of bargaining sessions further down the pecking order.

But that wasn't the point of my earlier posts. There are a good number of relatively new Pilots on this forum, as well as those who are simply curious. I feel for them when they attempt to ask legitimate and intelligent questions, only to never get an answer because two or three replies in, the same old arguments start.

Theses agruments do raise good points, and obviously communication (even an verbal scrap) on any issue is the first tiny step towards reaching an agreement.

All I'm humbly (in all sincerity) suggesting is that they take place on a different thread or even a different topic area.

I'm not trying to make light of anyones workplace issues or step on anyone's toes.

Peace

Gurundu the Rat · Post by **Gurundu the Rat** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:28 pm

Balls, I joined Jazz in 1999, I don't even care what happened in the past. All I know is it has gotten nowhere. I also know that a lot of Jazz pilots aren't too thrilled with the ALPA dictatorship these days. I don't even think a representation vote would pass with the Jazz pilots. Anyways I guess there are still too many people on both sides looking in the rearview mirror. We'll just have to wait and see what management comes up with next.

EI-EIO · Post by **EI-EIO** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:55 am

If one sat down with a blank sheet of paper and tried to say how you would respond to the current environment, one would say AC mainline should be getting out of intra North American services almost completely, excluding trunk routes, as Westjet and Canjet will always have them under pressure and the threat of openskies is there too. If it can't support a 320, AC mainline should probably not be flying it in US or Canada. As the YHM-YUL/YOW routes show, Jazz expansion doesn't always mean cannibalising mainline routes. Jazz flying some US routes is inevitable now that the competition is there too.

By the same token, AC should be following the lead of other carriers like CO and AA who are moving their mainlines to a higher proportion of medium/longhaul services where their costbases make somewhat more sense. It doesn't seem rational to me that AC mainliners should be opposing Jazz expansion so long as widebody long haul is expanded and well recompensed. Finalising the long haul fleet expansion order is crucial to this happening and this should have the active backing of the Jazz people too because if mainline LH doesn't expand, there is no incentive for mainline pilots to not want SH routes instead, even when the loads are marginal for mainline aircraft.

The key issue is to prevent the fiasco which seems to be unfolding at QF, where the Jetstar and Australian offshoots are now expanding into longhaul (apparently including European routes). You can't rule out AC management coming up with another "Tango by AC" wheeze with the 767 fleet which will commoditise mainline, in which case we might as well all fly TS or Zoom or Skyservice.

It seems to an outsider that it is in both unions interest to have a scope agreement which gives Jazz a completely free hand in sub 320 markets, pushes mainline's focus further out (which is already happening) and importantly, to agree a formula for moving routes between AC and Jazz as demand rises or a route shows a need for smaller higher frequency services without a catfight breaking out every time and most importantly, preserves AC as a quality airline rather than racing to the bottom.