.'s incident with TC

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Re: .'s incident with TC

Post by TG »

hamstandard wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 10:30 pm
Cat Driver wrote: Tue May 29, 2018 5:59 pm Almost all the inspectors are fair and easy to deal with, however like any part of society there will be a few real misfits
Wait a minute, there is a well-known former poster from this forum who has me convinced that almost every TC inspector is evil. You mean that not true? Imagine.
Go through this same hell as . did because of "one" and see if you won't react the same initially.
Don't forget that this "one" had all the back up from above.
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Re: .'s incident with TC

Post by PilotDAR »

. was in an unfortunate situation, with a TC Inspector, who, for what ever reason saw a different circumstance. I agree that TC inspectors are human, and entitled to be wrong every now and then. I guess that every now and then, a person digs in to being wrong, and it just gets worse. That's why the TC system has "other people" to speak to when there seems to be an impasse.

. is correctly able to articulate:
he would not accept the Tail wheel Aerobat because it was not a Cessna 150 anymore.

I said have you checked the C of A and read the STC that was part of it.
A certified aircraft, when modified by STC is still that model aircraft. Indeed, it would be very hard to modify a certified aircraft that it became a certified aircraft of a different model by C of A. I would venture that by the time someone accomplished this, the aircraft would have cost too much to make it available for flight training! But, it is the owner/applicant's responsibility to understand what aircraft they are applying with, and what it's privileges are.

It's pretty common now for legacy aircraft to have STC'd mods. Of course, "STC" stands for "Supplemental Type Certificate". The original aircraft was certified in accordance with a Type Certificate, so now it's supplemented. That supplement will be done to either match, or be to a newer (higher) standard than the original certification, so there is no reason to think that the aircraft is less compliant with the mod installed, with three important exceptions:

Restricted;

In a few cases, an STC could introduce a restriction, in which case, the word "Restricted" will be prominent on the STC certificate. This will restrict how the aircraft is to be used. Most commonly - no passengers. Examples of this would be research/SAR/firefighting aircraft, where there is no intention to carry pax anyway. Somewhere in the STC "demonstration of compliance" process, it will have agreed that the aircraft no longer meets the requirements for passenger safety, but that's still okay for the intended crew only role. An example might be that a cabin exit has been blocked, or cabin flammability requirements are no longer met.

Limitation;

The STC might introduce a limitation which affects it's operation with the STC mod installed. The aircraft is still otherwise compliant, but something it used to be allowed to do, is no longer permitted. This will not affect passenger carrying, but will affect something else. The only "Cessna" type example which comes to mind is that the STC installation of a Horton STOL kit will remover the permission to intentionally spin 150/152/172. This is not because the aircraft is less able to spin and recover (it still meets the requirement to be recoverable), but rather, it can no longer be held in the required number of turns, and then recovered - the spin changes/recovers itself before that requirement is demonstrated. A very safe characteristic, but non ideal for teaching spins! You can still train in these aircraft - just not spins - it's a limitation.

And, "Frankenplanes";

My personal record is a wonderful 182 amphibian, which in addition to a few unique mods I did to it, has 27 off the shelf STC mods installed. Is it still a 182Q? I don't think Cessna would think so, but it still has the Cessna data plate, with the type certificate number, and a C of A saying that's valid. But the aircraft is so highly modified that many speeds, weights, dimensions, systems, and limitations are not what the aircraft left the factory as being. The result was a lot of document writing on my part, to define how to operate and maintain this highly modified aircraft. I got to that step before the maintenance person did, because I was involved from the beginning of the modifying. However, for aircraft which go into the shop for "one more" mod, the installer/maintainer is responsible for considering the following condition which is on every STC:
Conditions: This approval is only applicable to the type/model of aeronautical product specified therein. Prior to incorporating this modification, the installer shall establish that the interrelationship between this change and any other modification(s) incorporated will not adversely affect the airworthiness of the modified product
That's a big one, and worthy of the thought. Either of the two STC's could be well compliant, but combine them, and the aircraft becomes non compliant - because each STC holder did not consider (and test) in combination with the other STC'd modification (there's no expectation that they would - hence the statement). The installer now responsible for discharging a certification expectation, which could be well outside their base of knowledge and experience. Often, it requires another STC to allow the combination of the previous mods, and limitations could be imposed. An example of this which I was involved in testing back in the late '80's is the combination of a carburetted 520/550 in place of the O-470 on a Cessna 180/182 + a STOL kit. Either is a fine change to the aircraft, and one would think that both together are better yet. However, the gravity feed fuel flow requirement is greater for the 520/550 than it was for the O-470, and the airframe still meets this requirement for the required "attitude least favourable" - with a normal airfoil. But, modify the airfoil so the aircraft can fly at a greater yet AoA, and you may find that the carb can be higher than the fuel level with less than 1/4 tanks, fuel stops flowing, and the engine quits with the nose pointed very high. I have experienced this during flight testing - it would have been really startling, if it were not what I was actually trying to accomplish in the test.

So, it's up to you, the owner/applicant to understand ALL of the effects of the mods you choose for your aircraft. There are many fine mods available by STC, and each will benefit the aircraft somehow. Just assure that you also understand any unintended changes which could accompany the modification to the aircraft, and how that could affect your intended use of the aircraft.

Oh, by the way, the aircraft in my little avatar picture was modified to the point where STC approval was not possible (compliance could not be demonstrated). The only way to continue to fly the aircraft at all, was that it be accepted into the Owner Maintenance category. TC agreed to allow that, so I bought the plane, and moved it over. That was an example of an eager person, who (albeit with an FAA DER Engineer leading the way) put too many changes, and the result was not certifiable. Without OM, that plane would never have flown again.
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Re: .'s incident with TC

Post by B208 »

Hockaloogie wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 10:09 am Was there a point to this thread?
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Re: .'s incident with TC

Post by Rockie »

The side to this story that has never been presented here and never will be is Transport Canada's. It's certain they have one.
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Re: .'s incident with TC

Post by digits_ »

Rockie wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 6:08 am The side to this story that has never been presented here and never will be is Transport Canada's. It's certain they have one.
While I don't dispute some posters have a flair for the dramatic, I have no problem believing .'s side of the story on this one. I've been closely involved in dealing with a similar personality type TC inspector. A lot of them are indeed professional and can even admit when they are wrong, some are not. If using a law/rule to your advantage triggers a personal vendetta response from an inspector because that inspector's personal believes are that something is illegal/"unsafe", that person is not fit to serve in an inspector/enforcement role.

The correct response should be to back up those believes with rules and regulations. If he can't find it, it's not up to the inspector to create rules or impose extra restrictions. That is not his job. He has to enforce the existing ones. Those personalities seem to have a problem making that distinction.
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Re: .'s incident with TC

Post by Rockie »

digits_ wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 8:10 am
Rockie wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 6:08 am The side to this story that has never been presented here and never will be is Transport Canada's. It's certain they have one.
While I don't dispute some posters have a flair for the dramatic, I have no problem believing .'s side of the story on this one. I've been closely involved in dealing with a similar personality type TC inspector. A lot of them are indeed professional and can even admit when they are wrong, some are not. If using a law/rule to your advantage triggers a personal vendetta response from an inspector because that inspector's personal believes are that something is illegal/"unsafe", that person is not fit to serve in an inspector/enforcement role.

The correct response should be to back up those believes with rules and regulations. If he can't find it, it's not up to the inspector to create rules or impose extra restrictions. That is not his job. He has to enforce the existing ones. Those personalities seem to have a problem making that distinction.
I'm not disputing any of that. Just pointing out that we haven't heard TC's or the individual inspector's side of the story, so the story is incomplete. . is not the warmest and fuzziest of people especially when he percieves he is being challenged. Unless this is a late development in his personality it's possible his initial response to the inspector was less than diplomatic.

You know, you can say to a cop "sure, here's my license officer" or you can say "f**k off and get a real job" and get a different response. Some people just make their lives difficult by being difficult. I'd like to hear the other side of the story.
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Last edited by Rockie on Thu May 31, 2018 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: .'s incident with TC

Post by C.W.E. »

The side to this story that has never been presented here and never will be is Transport Canada's. It's certain they have one.
Well Rockie you have made a very good point.

To get Transport Canadas side of the story would not be that difficult.

Contact me and let me know who's story you are interested in as there were several very high ranking T.C. officials involved in the process and each of them were directly involved and will have their own story to tell.

There are only two ways I can think of to get their side accurately and that would be by reading transcripts of the story or by talking directly to the people involved which would be easy as all you have to do is tell me which persons you would like to talk to and I will give you their names.

The paper transcripts could probably be gotten under FOI so let me know what exactly you would like to know and we together might be able to get the information.

And last but not least I have quite a pile of material in my files.

There you go Rockie that really was not all that difficult was it?

Now in my personal opinion the important part of that process was each of us had a story to tell and each of had plenty of time to tell our stories, when it finally came down to who's story fit best into the rule of law it was decided my story was chosen.
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Re: .'s incident with TC

Post by Rockie »

Sure, give me the file number . and I'll see if I can find it before I lose interest. As for personal stories of the people involved, maybe out of fairness you could invite them here yourself for an equal airing of perspectives.

I'm just not prepared to jump on your bandwagon on your word alone. Lacking the other perspective I guess that means I'm not on your bandwagon.
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Re: .'s incident with TC

Post by C.W.E. »

As for personal stories of the people involved, maybe out of fairness you could invite them here yourself for an equal airing of perspectives.

I'm just not prepared to jump on your bandwagon on your word alone. Lacking the other perspective I guess that means I'm not on your bandwagon.
You want me to post the names of all the T.C. officials who were involved in that long going process here on Avcanada. just to get you on my bandwagon?
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Re: .'s incident with TC

Post by Rockie »

Not at all. Invite them privately since only you know their names. You can tell them you've been saying some very unflattering things about them and their colleagues for many years now and would like to offer an opportunity to give their side of the story.

See if they're willing.
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Re: .'s incident with TC

Post by C.W.E. »

Not at all. Invite them privately since only you know their names. You can tell them you've been saying some very unflattering things about them and their colleagues for many years now and would like to offer an opportunity to give their side of the story.

See if they're willing.
Rockie all that has been done over and over on these public forums in the time frame it took place, over and over I have publicly named them and in public stared my opinion of their actions.

If you are so determined to delve into this again feel free to do so on your own time, I have more important things to do then help you get their story.

If they refuse to co-operate with you then I guess you will just have to find some other way to entertain yourself.

By the way I understand you still fly for Air Canada, if you do I wonder what Air Canada would think of what I perceive to be your trying to belittle my reputation.

Because I truly believe that is what you are doing and I am not prepared to just let it continue.
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Re: .'s incident with TC

Post by CpnCrunch »

It's file #5015-12391 according to .'s posts on another forum, and . as a 300 page word doc he can email you.
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Re: .'s incident with TC

Post by C.W.E. »

It's file #5015-12391 according to .'s posts on another forum,



That looks to be correct CpnCrunch, I am not interested in going into my files looking for it.
and . as a 300 page word doc he can email you.
If Rockie wants my records he can get a court order to force me to release them.

I am not interested in helping him in his weird need to try and show I did something illegal or immoral to deserve the trashing me and my company took from TCCA's top management trying to defend the actions of an employee they fired for denying me my right to operate a business.

Rockie, do you still fly for Air Canada?
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Re: .'s incident with TC

Post by Bede »

I think cat could probably meet Rockie's curiosities by posting the successful court judgement or minutes of settlement. That would have the final unbiaded word by a judge.

Why not post those?
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Re: .'s incident with TC

Post by C.W.E. »

I think cat could probably meet Rockie's curiosities by posting the successful court judgement or minutes of settlement. That would have the final unbiaded word by a judge.

The findings of my complaints against TCCA were made by TCCA internally as I could not afford the money it would have taken to go to a court...therefore a judge did not decide my case, TCCA did internally.

There were two important decisions reached.

One was I was denied due process under law.

Second I was awarded $250,000 for my losses, which I have yet to collect.

Why not post those?
I guess I am just tired of being asked to prove that these issues are factual.

In other words if Rockie or anyone else think my claims about this issue is untrue then so be it, it is just not worth it to me to keep trying to show proof that these issues are true.
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Re: .'s incident with TC

Post by CpnCrunch »

C.W.E. wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 10:31 am
If Rockie wants my records he can get a court order to force me to release them.
Well you did offer on another forum to email that Word doc to anyone who was interested.
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Re: .'s incident with TC

Post by C.W.E. »

Well you did offer on another forum to email that Word doc to anyone who was interested.
Yes that is true.

All Rockie needs to do is contact me and give me his real name and address and I will do my best to find that word document and send it to him.

Remember all that took place many years ago and it may take time to find it.

I feel it is reasonable to know who exactly I am sending such personal documents to.

He or anyone else are free to use this information to ask for it under FOI.
It's file #5015-12391 according to .'s posts on another forum,
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Re: .'s incident with TC

Post by SkySailor »

Rockie, you must be a pain in the ass to fly with.
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Re: .'s incident with TC

Post by C.W.E. »

All Rockie needs to do is contact me and give me his real name and address and I will do my best to find that word document and send it to him.
Lets see if he really wants to see the document I don't think I am being unreasonable to know who I am sending it to.
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Re: .'s incident with TC

Post by C.W.E. »

Rockie, you must be a pain in the ass to fly with.
Well for sure he is sure being a pain in my ass, figuratively of course not literally. :mrgreen:
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