Jazz or Money

[2low]

I just wanted to know how many people out there would give up making 45,000 or more and a great schedule to move to YYZ and fly for 34,700 on a Dash 8. What are your pros and cons of Jazz. After all it's only a Dash 8. Yet it is an airline. Just a thought.

[KAG]

I have been thinking the same thing too (just in case). Ya know I would take it. Yes the salary is poor first year, but with alittle overtime and brown bag it, you should come out ok.


Cheers.

[Axial Flow]

You be getting in near the beginning of a hiring spree so you would be sitting pretty in a year or so I am sure. Better make the call now cause this would be the best case scenario for Jazz if you went now.

[R2000/1830]

If you only look at the money you make, then you will be the 55+ pilot doing crew changes in a BE100 because you missed the boat when you were chasing the almighty dollar.


I mean no offence to the older pilots whom are independently wealthy but still like to do some flying to stay in the loop.

[2low]

I tend to agree with ya. Just helps out with the process. Much appreciated.

[evalle]

I think it all depends, i am 32 with wife and kids.... at my point you cannot think about yourself anymore
But if i was in my 20s o would go to Jazz, the money are KFC-like but the experience i think is invaluable, plus AC-Jazz is known all over the world and is a great reference when you want to change airline/country...
CIAO

[Captain Esq.]

Jazz provides no guarantee that you'll get to fly for mainline. If you're going to Jazz, you should be looking at it as a stepping stone to a successful career overseas, or to another major gig in Canada. I firmly believe that overseas will provide the quickest advancement, the most money, and you'll only have to sacrifice ten or so years (less, if you play your cards right) to be living back in Canada for an overseas company. Not much of a sacrifice, really, as you'll be coming home with hundreds of thousands of dollars to your name, and left seat in a widebody. How long is it to upgrade at Jazz? 10 - 15 years? Very little attrition, if at all? I think we've all had it in our heads that Jazz, then AC, was the be all/end all of career paths in Canada. We've brainwashed ourselves with a lie. I think that Jazz will soon become what regional carriers have become in the US... a place for 1000 hour instructors who live in their parents house. The pay itself indicates that it will become that. They're only getting the experienced pilots at this payscale because the those pilots are too afraid that AC will NEVER call them. I haven't worked it out exactly, but I'd be guessing that over a 10 year period, you'll probably average less than $45 000/year at Jazz. Perhaps someone on the inside could make a better comment on that, though. That's the number I'm using to sway myself against Jazz.

[Flywest]

I agree with most of the points you've made about flying overseas. I'm thinking along those same lines right now. However I think you're greatly exaggerating the 10 -15 years to upgrade part. I believe the most junoir skippers at Jazz right now have been with the company around 7 years. (someone else can clarify this) Now, that in itself is a fairly long time to upragade but, you have to take in to account the fact that we've just come through one of the worst downturns in history. A downturn which resulted in many layoffs, downgrades and of course: no promotions.

[tailgunner]

An interesting question. Before you jump to Jazz take a hard look at your lifestyle expectations. Airline flying means many nights away from home. This is a gaurantee that comes with that type of flying. 10- 14 nights in a hotel away from home can be quite common. While some corporate or charter flying involves RON's they tend to be less structured and can be fewer in number. Furthermore, when one is on the road with a coporate or charter job, you may have a few days between arrival and departure. These can be very relaxing depending on location. ( Golf, Fishing, Hiking) Airline pilots tend to go from the a/c to the shuttle to the lobby to the bar to the room back to the shuttle and back to work in the morn. A four day pairing means flying steadily for four days whereas coporately it may only mean two days of flying. Secondly, will you ever catch up on the salary end of things if it takes you 5 years to get upgraded? You may neverdo it. In 5 years of doing what you are doing you could reasonably expect some form of salary increase, plus the extra 8000 - 10000 per year more than Jazz for 5 years makes it a long time to catch up. The airline industry is just as, or probably more volatile than corporate or charter work. Plus with the number of pilots going to the airlines, and the ages of existing coporate pilots there may be a demand for experienced coporate and charter pilots .My Two Cents.OUT.

[Bede]

Does anyone know how many days a month Jazz guys are scheduled for? Is it easy to commute from a close Jazz serviced city?

[piggy]

Bottom capt at jazz is around 8 yrs. 8 yr pay capt on reserve is about $80000 -$86000 as full block incr to $100000 or so at 16 yr(i think)
Most junior capts are in YUL followed by YYZ. It will be a very very long time until you will be capt out west (unless they exercise their options for 45 more rj and get q400 but depends on how many dh100 they park-then you might have reserve )

On reserve you will be sched 18 days /month and called 9 days(slow month) to 15-16 days (busy months)
Reserve and not being called is great.
Full block dash 8 is 15days and RJ is 13 days.

pairings are a mix of 1,2,3,4 days and days worked are 1 leg to long days of 8 legs.
regional flying is less credit than longer legs at mainline. 14 hr work day at jazz with 8 legs works out to 6-7 hr credit . 14 hr workday at mainline CAN work out to 10 credit. This means less days worked for same or more money at less difficult work day. the rj 705 is more credit at less days worked but will be very senior and you will never see it.

You prob will have the opportunity to mainline at jazz-whether they take you is not for sure.
You will be scoped for the forseeable future at jazz-may or may not reduce growth at jazz depending on AC's profit, pirice of oil , etc.

If you are a family man -like to be home with your wife/kids and not jetlagged at all and are ok with some pain at the beginning with a ok pay(underpayed ) then maybe jazz is for you.

[Bede]

Great post piggy, thanks

[Yoyoma]

[Bede]

Unfortunately Yoyoma, you don't see any of that stuff flying in Canada.

[joe to go]

You will make the right decision TRIPOD!!

[Panama Jack]

Unfortunately Yoyoma, you don't see any of that stuff flying in Canada.

That little traitor Yoyoma. Here is a patriotic display of our brightly coloured notes:



Regarding the Dash 8 thing, there will be plenty of hiring at Jazz, and short-term transition to a CRJ or even direct entry to a CRJ (all of them of course for long right-seat sentences) would not be unlikely. Depending on what you are doing now, working under an organization like Jazz, and especially on a CRJ, could be a positive for your resume if you have greater ambitions (only you know what you want out of the career).

The downside, as you mentioned, is $35K in Toronto or Montreal. How do people do it, I have no clue. Also, there is some debate on whether working at Jazz is a positive or a negative if you aspire to fly the ERJ's, Boeings, and Airbuses at the mainline.

[55+]

Here is my retired 55 yr old two cent view(and it may be worth less that that).

If you are young, single blast off to Jazz. It will be an experience that you may never get again. However if you have a partner with dependants and you are in the late 20's, early 30's sit down with he or she and discuss all aspects pro and con and above all be honest and open. There will be strains both financially and lifestyle but you never know some other pilot will be in the same situation and that may be an area of support for your partner. Bottom line is that you are doing this to better yourself and there will be many things beyond your control and no fault of your own that you may have to deal with. That I can say being 55yrs old and 30yrs in this business.

Wishing you the very best

[Yoyoma]

Unfortunately Yoyoma, you don't see any of that stuff flying in Canada.

That little traitor Yoyoma. Here is a patriotic display of our brightly coloured notes:

Touché...Good one!

[just curious]

After 40, I would never go to Jazz. For senior drivers in a tier three carrier, we would never make back the money. That's neither here nor there, since, as a married guy, I haven't seen one of my paycheques in 25 years

However, seniority runs every aspect of life at Jazz. I would now be contemplating flying every holiday, weekend and evening- YYZ-CLE 5 times a day. My house is paid for. Going to YYZ means a new mortage. On 34K starting.

The senior hands at Jazz are not going to AC, so I would upgrade on: retirements (same time as mine!) Growth- ACPA & scope will limit the potential for expansion.

No thanks.

[bcflyer]

There are definitely good and bad things at Jazz. The money sucks for the first few years, you will be on reserve and work all the holidays. However alot of people are forgetting the little things that make working there alot more bearable compared to corporate or charter flying. You NEVER have to 1-load bags, 2-fuel your own plane or even arrange for fuel, 3-deice your own plane, 4-tow your own plane into or out of the hanger, 5-put wing covers or engine tents on your own plane, 6-when sked time comes you leave, regardless of wether or not your pax meetings ran late or they wanted to get another 9 holes in, 7-at the end of the day you walk away from the A/C and don't look back. 8, when you are assigned a pairing you know exactly where and when you will be somewhere. (yes there are some days where things get screwed up but generally this holds true)
Jazz also has an excellent benefit plan with full medical and dental coverage, we have a full pension plan in place and of course you get unlimited flight benefits. How does going to Hawaii for the weekend sound?? (ok maybe for a couple days mid week since you will be working alot of weekends.. LOL) Yes money is important but there are alot of intangibles that can make Jazz a pretty good spot to be.

[Panama Jack]

How does going to Hawaii for the weekend sound?? (ok maybe for a couple days mid week since you will be working alot of weekends.. LOL) Yes money is important but there are alot of intangibles that can make Jazz a pretty good spot to be.

So you get off the airplane in Maui and Honolulu . . . and now what??? Too bad there aren't many $29 hotels in the most beautiful state of the Union.