WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

[jjj]

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Sausage fingers on smartphone

[tbaylx]

. [/u][/b]

There is something wrong with the system and it is producing people like mbav8r and tbayix who are just doing their best to survive.

We need to start seeing the forest for the trees as a profession

tbayix knows exactly what he was doing. He is not doing his best to survive. He's made a decent living for himself and his family in aviation. The sad thing is, there is no reason for him to have done it. He left a rock solid job with the government, with a generous paycheck, pension, far better medical / dental benefits, weekends off, holidays off, where he could be at home with his wife and three young children. He clearly doesn't give a hoot what his peers, former coworkers and former friends think of him. Before his government job, he went through many jobs that guys make a career out of, from Sunwing to Canadian North, to Emirates and Oman Air. Even had he done nothing in his career and stayed with Air Georgian, he'd be making a six figure income and enjoying top seniority. If anything, his personality is known to grate on others and he wears out his welcome quick. If you don't believe me, ask a friendly WS pilot, as there is a thread re him circulating amongst hundreds of them with nary a kind word to be said.

And if he felt the longing for airline flying - why did he leave SW a year and a half ago, where he would have been in the same position (737NG Capt), except with several years seniority. With his qualifications, if he really wanted to get back into airline flying, he could do far far better than Swoop.

I, for one, am STOKED for June 15th, when one of the two things will happen

1. He will turn in his ID badge and be escorted OFF the property
-or-
2. Best case scenario for him, he'll become an FO on the combined WS-Scoop list, and he'll carry his 80000 employee number like a like a Badge of Cowardice the rest of his time here, so that everyone will know that he was willing to stab you in the back for his own benefit.

You have no idea of my personal situations and reasons so don't pretend. If you're done being an anonymous internet hero feel free to PM me your name so I know which of my "friends" i'm dealing with.

[Fanblade]

Canadians pilots have some of the worst pay, benefits, vacations, duty and fatigue standards in the western world (not to say third world)

Isn't it time to look at the way we do things and try something different?

Don't tell me that alpa is trying to do something different. They are doing the same thing that has happened time and time again.

It's about time that the pilots here start to take a long hard look at themselves and realise that they are part of the problem.

I agree. Our willingness to undercut each other for work has had devastating consequences. Time and time again we have demonstrated our willingness to do things that may benefit us, at the expense of the greater good.

Individualism creates a competitive atmosphere which benefits only the employer. Individualism can be something as small as a handful of pilots undercutting a larger group or something larger where say ACPA undercuts ALPA. Or ALPA tries to undercut ACPA. It’s a one way street down hill. It’s simply doing what I want despite the consequences to the greater good.

Ineffectual collectivism, since AC pilots left the fold, has lead to individualism throughout our profession and has allowed this disastrous state of affairs.

Collectivism. Everyone under one umbrella. No competing with each other. No under cutting. Or at the very least, to the greatest extent possible.

It’s long past time for everyone to be ALPA. Time for common goals that respect each other, advance the profession for everyone in it and for those that follow.

[tbaylx]

Canadians pilots have some of the worst pay, benefits, vacations, duty and fatigue standards in the western world (not to say third world)

Isn't it time to look at the way we do things and try something different?

Don't tell me that alpa is trying to do something different. They are doing the same thing that has happened time and time again.

It's about time that the pilots here start to take a long hard look at themselves and realise that they are part of the problem.

I agree. Our willingness to undercut each other for work has had devastating consequences. Time and time again we have demonstrated our willingness to do things that may benefit us, at the expense of the greater good.

Individualism creates a competitive atmosphere which benefits only the employer. Individualism can be something as small as a handful of pilots undercutting a larger group or something larger where say ACPA undercuts ALPA. Or ALPA tries to undercut ACPA. It’s a one way street down hill. It’s simply doing what I want despite the consequences to the greater good.

Ineffectual collectivism, since AC pilots left the fold, has lead to individualism throughout our profession and has allowed this disastrous state of affairs.

Collectivism. Everyone under one umbrella. No competing with each other. No under cutting. Or at the very least, to the greatest extent possible.

It’s long past time for everyone to be ALPA. Time for common goals that respect each other, advance the profession for everyone in it and for those that follow.

ALPA is part of the problem. Its the seniority system that ties pilots to one particular airline and makes experience count for very little. A national seniority system where you can carry your seniority from one airline to another and change jobs without severe financial repercussions would force companies to compete for talent and raise wages.

[Bede]

A national seniority system where you can carry your seniority from one airline to another and change jobs without severe financial repercussions would force companies to compete for talent and raise wages.

Well, exactly. That's what we're trying to do. We started with Encore. Then you come along, take advantage of our labour issues, and attempt to enrich yourself by jumping to the front of the line ahead of our Encore colleagues.

[sicamore]

A national seniority system where you can carry your seniority from one airline to another and change jobs without severe financial repercussions would force companies to compete for talent and raise wages.

Well, exactly. That's what we're trying to do. We started with Encore. Then you come along, take advantage of our labour issues, and attempt to enrich yourself by jumping to the front of the line ahead of our Encore colleagues.

Stop with the blame. Become part of the solution. What the scoop pilots have done is done. It will work its way out on the 15th. You're bitter we get it. Move on.

Looking ahead, yes we need some way to be able to transfer our experience. This would allow a westjet captain to go DEC into AC. It would incentivise companies to keep wages high to keep their captains. At the moment, they know they don't have to do anything because a captain won't move.

I don't agree with a collective approach at all. It stinks of marxism to me and that is part of the problem here in canada with unions. Too much us vs them.

We need a way to reward individualism without being harmful to the common good.

It is done in every other professional industry... why not here? Any doctor, lawyer, banker etc will go to who pays the highest... and continue moving if it becomes worth it. This pushes the companies to continue increasing salaries and benefits. Who ever heard of any of them going somewhere else and starting in the mail room again at half the salary?

In a way airlines must love unions. It takes the free market out of the employee equation and makes us easier to control.

Lets bring laissez-faire capitalism back and start letting companies compete for us. Isn't the time right?

[Fanblade]

A national list would be utopia.

Not very realistic though. You will never get buy in from the corporations that would see costs go up as a result. They like the locked in aspect of a seniority system. They don’t want to compete for you. They want you competing for them.

The best you can do is get as many pilots as possible rowing in the same direction. That can only be accomplished with all pilots at the same table, making cohesive decisions for the greater good of the profession.

Individualism will only lead to more individualism. People doing whatever they want.

Seniority lists force everyone to wait thier turn. Backstabbing becomes pointless. Que jumpers, entitled individuals, will always be with us. We need disincentives. The seniority system is that disincentive.

The only reason to want the seniority system abolished is because it acts as a road block to que jumping.

Our profession without a seniority list would turn into anarchy. Every man for himself.

[moe]

Bede... awesome post.

[cloak]

Generally speaking a seniority system is not good for skilled workers, like doctors, lawyers, etc. It prevents them from moving and naturally going to higher paying jobs. Doctors and lawyers negotiate their own rates with firms which is predicated on their experience and needs of the firm if it be new graduates or seasoned lawyers. Even nurses do retain their years of service when they move to other hospitals, but not seniority which is used for schedule and vacation. If a hospital wants to hire new recruits or senior nurses with 8th year pay, it's up to their needs and budget. That may be a good compromise for pilots too. It may not be long when almost all airlines have to hire DECs. Ultimately pay and working conditions are determined by market forces, not unions.

[Maritimer]

Delete

[Demeter]

“Our profession without a seniority list would turn into anarchy. Every man for himself.” 99

[RustyDeuce]

How so?

Personally, a red pass is required for safety. Anyone can get a job at wj, get their wj id day 1 and hop in a jumpseat. If I can’t show my family where I work, I’m not showing a stranger.

How so? Nobody gave you the right to decide who flies jump - there's a policy in place that decides who and in what order.

There is a policy. Then there is the Captains decision. Which is final, regardless of policy.

The Captains decision isn't to hand pick who flies jump. It's follow the policy or don't let anyone fly jump. Pretty simple. Black and white.

[jjj]

Many Captains have been pissing on that policy for years. So have the CSAs. They’re just happy it gets filled one way or another.

JJJ

[RidersRule]

How so? Nobody gave you the right to decide who flies jump - there's a policy in place that decides who and in what order.

There is a policy. Then there is the Captains decision. Which is final, regardless of policy.

The Captains decision isn't to hand pick who flies jump. It's follow the policy or don't let anyone fly jump. Pretty simple. Black and white.

I don’t know who u work for but I decide who sits 6 inch’s behind me...not the CSA.

That’s a fact.

No Swoop in my jumpseat.

[DropTanks]

.

[Maritimer]

How so? Nobody gave you the right to decide who flies jump - there's a policy in place that decides who and in what order.

There is a policy. Then there is the Captains decision. Which is final, regardless of policy.

The Captains decision isn't to hand pick who flies jump. It's follow the policy or don't let anyone fly jump. Pretty simple. Black and white.

This is just flat out not true at WJ. Captains have the final say, period.

[Fanblade]

Generally speaking a seniority system is not good for skilled workers, like doctors, lawyers, etc. It prevents them from moving and naturally going to higher paying jobs. Doctors and lawyers negotiate their own rates with firms which is predicated on their experience and needs of the firm if it be new graduates or seasoned lawyers. Even nurses do retain their years of service when they move to other hospitals, but not seniority which is used for schedule and vacation. If a hospital wants to hire new recruits or senior nurses with 8th year pay, it's up to their needs and budget. That may be a good compromise for pilots too. It may not be long when almost all airlines have to hire DECs. Ultimately pay and working conditions are determined by market forces, not unions.

Doctors and nurses don’t in general negotiate their wages individually. They both belong to professional associations which negotiate on thier behalf with provincial governments. Doctors associations negotiate billing rates. Nurses associations negotiate wages. The same associations control licensing and accreditation.

They basically belong to a professional union called a college. It’s a bunch of individuals negotiating as a collective to achieve a better overall result.

Yes some Doctors and Nurses are employed outside the public sector. But not many.

A college of professional pilots might actually be a good idea. Unfortunately professional associations need ledgislation to make it happen as they need control over licensing. The licensing forces collectivism. It forces people to do what they are instructed. Which in turn provides leverage at the bargaining table. Your kidding yourself if you think a Doctor or Nurse has much individual say within the public system.

Airlines will fight this legislation allowing pilots to become a college and licence themselves tooth and nail. I realize a college of pilots in Canada is currently being attempted. Unfortunately licensing is not at the forefront. Without licensing it will have no teeth. It can advocate but can not negotiate.

Another draw back is that very few professional associations are recognized outside thier boarder.

This is the trade off.

Individualism = autonomy. Autonomy = doing whatever is best for you personally.

Collectivism = loss of autonomy. Loss of autonomy = a group making decisions for the greater good.

ACPA’s attempt at autonomy = doing whatever is best for them at the expense of the greater good? = Failure.

For full discloses I am an ACPA pilot.

[atphat]

How so? Nobody gave you the right to decide who flies jump - there's a policy in place that decides who and in what order.

There is a policy. Then there is the Captains decision. Which is final, regardless of policy.

The Captains decision isn't to hand pick who flies jump. It's follow the policy or don't let anyone fly jump. Pretty simple. Black and white.

As has already been posted you have no idea what you’re talking about. CA decision. Full stop.