DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

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govida
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by govida »

Loner,
Attitude! Mister, attitude!
A good attitude will definitely set you down the right path. That being said, do pilots that take the ramp route have better attitude than ones that don't?
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Loner
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by Loner »

govida wrote: Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:28 am Loner,
Attitude! Mister, attitude!
A good attitude will definitely set you down the right path. That being said, do pilots that take the ramp route have better attitude than ones that don't?
I was making reference to the quote “what makes a good pilot”
I wasn’t debating on the ramp path.
Regarding the latter, it is up to each individual to decide.
There is no perfect answer, today’s market gives them choices that most of us didn’t have.
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Cat Driver
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by Cat Driver »

The requirements of being a pilot have definitely changed over the years. Just because pilots used to train on conventional aircraft back in the day, doesn't make it better or worse than the current methods
I guess I was just born at the wrong time and when I learned to fly we did not have all the modern technology in airplanes and the instructors were limited in their understanding of aerodynamics and how to properly fly aircraft, and of course there were no or very few nose wheel airplanes to properly learn aircraft handling on.

However somehow I did manage to fly a fairly large number of aircraft and did not ever wreck one or kill anyone, especially myself.

Sadly I am getting to the time in life where it would probably be difficult to re-train me so I would be able to fly all those really difficult to handle airplanes this generation fly for a living.

What is that old saying? " You can't teach an old dog new tricks" ?
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
govida
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by govida »

Hi Cat,

However somehow I did manage to fly a fairly large number of aircraft and did not ever wreck one or kill anyone, especially myself.
Excellent! Do you think a pilot that is trained with all the modern technology and methods can hope to have a spotless record like yours?

Or is this privilege only reserved for pilots that learned with tailwheel and toughed it out on the ramp for a few years?
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by Maynard »

FL007 wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:48 pm
TheRealMcCoy wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:40 pm I have yet to sign on the dotted line for a job that didn't say "and other duties as assignment by a supervisor".

Quit your whining.
This is why the industry has this old mentality that is still alive, and fortunately will die off in the next couple of decades.

"Whining" is what you call someone who makes 6 figures in aviation tries to create transparency in a job ad, which young people perhaps will get excited about, only to find that they were bait and switched.

Have you signed on the dotted line for a job where the job title was something different than you applied for? Do you recommend your child or future children do so?

I guess no one here would make a good chief pilot as the last duty is always “...or any other duties assigned by the ops manager...” :lol:
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by FL007 »

Maynard wrote: Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:41 pm
FL007 wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:48 pm
TheRealMcCoy wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:40 pm I have yet to sign on the dotted line for a job that didn't say "and other duties as assignment by a supervisor".

Quit your whining.
This is why the industry has this old mentality that is still alive, and fortunately will die off in the next couple of decades.

"Whining" is what you call someone who makes 6 figures in aviation tries to create transparency in a job ad, which young people perhaps will get excited about, only to find that they were bait and switched.

Have you signed on the dotted line for a job where the job title was something different than you applied for? Do you recommend your child or future children do so?

I guess no one here would make a good chief pilot as the last duty is always “...or any other duties assigned by the ops manager...” :lol:
Yes however in this post, you as a pilot are given additional tasks by the ground ops manager.

I don't know about you guys but I don't get additional tasks given to me by the flight attendant manager, or reservation manager, or ground manager at my job.. :roll:
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goingnowherefast
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by goingnowherefast »

Chief pilot is also a manager position where they might have to manage parts of the company. A pilot is a pilot where they have to...flight follow? Something seems wrong with that.
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by TheRealMcCoy »

A lot of people here would do very well in a union
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FL007
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by FL007 »

TheRealMcCoy wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:27 pm A lot of people here would do very well in a union
Ah yes a group of people set on the betterment of their profession who limit under the table deals and targeted managerial attacks. Or, recently as in WestJet's case, protecting future growth and upgrades, as well as maintaining current wages on identical jobs on same types. Horrible.

I sense there's a couple of managers on this forum, questioning why people who spent 100k on education became self aware of their worth.

These duty day regs are going to taste so sweet.
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by Cat Driver »

I sense there's a couple of managers on this forum, questioning why people who spent 100k on education became self aware of their worth.
Does it cost 100k now to become a commercial pilot?

As to their worth that varies from pilot to pilot, but essentially they usually end up getting paid what they are worth to the employer.
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by FL007 »

Cat Driver wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:44 pm
I sense there's a couple of managers on this forum, questioning why people who spent 100k on education became self aware of their worth.
Does it cost 100k now to become a commercial pilot?

As to their worth that varies from pilot to pilot, but essentially they usually end up getting paid what they are worth to the employer.
I'd say so, it cost me close to 75k, when you include tuition for college, living expenses and flying. Must have increased since then for sure.
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by Cat Driver »

That is a lot of money to spend to gamble on making a living flying airplanes.

How much more did it cost you to go the college route and would you advise others to go the college route?
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by FL007 »

Cat Driver wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:01 pm That is a lot of money to spend to gamble on making a living flying airplanes.

How much more did it cost you to go the college route and would you advise others to go the college route?
This was probably 10 years ago or so, so take that into consideration.

I'd say it cost me 15k or so more to go through a college, and for me it kept me focused on flying so, where I spent that over 2 years, non stop, if I wasn't in a college program it may have taken 4 if I was casual or part time, costing money in catching up on previous lessons.

As well lots of companies value diplomas focusing on aviation or degrees, regardless of how I feel about degrees or diplomas it definitely helped me get to where I am, and have made back the cost of flight training tenfold.

I'd say if you had to move to a place to do flight training full time non stop and you were motivated you'd probably be looking at 60k or so including living expenses (1k a month easy including rent).
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by C.W.E. »

Thanks for the answers, the world of flying has changed since I started there were no college programs back then.

My first flying job was instructing and one of my first students hired me to fly for their company which was a big grocery chain and from there went into aerial application which was hands down the most enjoyable flying I ever did.

After 13 years in that business I went into bush flying and then to airline flying on the DC3, however I found that to be to boring and in 1964 I was offered a helicopter license for free to work for a company that was starting aerial spraying with helicopters, they needed someone with an Ontario aerial applicators license so I jumped at the chance to fly helicopters.

Anyhow from there I went into fire bombing for 15 years and got tired of that so I started my own flying business and did a lot of interesting stuff over the decades I was self employed and worked for some real interesting companies such as Airbus Industries and French TV1 for a few years and then with Lloyds of London's underwriters among others.

The best flying job I ever had was with Miramax Movies as far as fun and money went.

The worst job was air show flying which I suffered through for eight years before I finally quit flying for a living because I wanted to be home not commuting half way around the world to do a job I detested.

Anyhow all in all it was an interesting way to earn a living and I would probably do it all over again if I were to be reincarnated. :mrgreen:
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by TheRealMcCoy »

FL007 wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:15 pm Ah yes a group of people set on the betterment of their profession who limit under the table deals and targeted managerial attacks. Or, recently as in WestJet's case, protecting future growth and upgrades, as well as maintaining current wages on identical jobs on same types. Horrible.

I sense there's a couple of managers on this forum, questioning why people who spent 100k on education became self aware of their worth.

These duty day regs are going to taste so sweet.
I'm a worker, and i've also been a manager. I have probably (yes i'm assuming but I have a sneaking suspicion i'm right) worked more jobs in more varying career fields than "most" people, so I would say my experience is fairly well rounded.

Every union I have worked in, has had the most unhappy work force, to the point where one place I hated going in because the general vibe of the co workers just made me mad. Most people I have known who work in union; it's a constant bitch fest about management and union rights, union this union that... Not once talking about the fact that they like their job or something cool they've done at work; i'm referencing a conversation I just recently had with an old classmate who just started at Encore.

I spent 100k on my aviation degree (biggest waste of money) and am very knew into my aviation career. So don't misinterpret that i'm some crusty old captain stuck in the old ways. I'm a new worker who's tired of hearing people bitching and whining about everything under the sun.
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by FL007 »

TheRealMcCoy wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:08 pm
FL007 wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:15 pm Ah yes a group of people set on the betterment of their profession who limit under the table deals and targeted managerial attacks. Or, recently as in WestJet's case, protecting future growth and upgrades, as well as maintaining current wages on identical jobs on same types. Horrible.

I sense there's a couple of managers on this forum, questioning why people who spent 100k on education became self aware of their worth.

These duty day regs are going to taste so sweet.
I'm a worker, and i've also been a manager. I have probably (yes i'm assuming but I have a sneaking suspicion i'm right) worked more jobs in more varying career fields than "most" people, so I would say my experience is fairly well rounded.

Every union I have worked in, has had the most unhappy work force, to the point where one place I hated going in because the general vibe of the co workers just made me mad. Most people I have known who work in union; it's a constant bitch fest about management and union rights, union this union that... Not once talking about the fact that they like their job or something cool they've done at work; i'm referencing a conversation I just recently had with an old classmate who just started at Encore.


I spent 100k on my aviation degree (biggest waste of money) and am very knew into my aviation career. So don't misinterpret that i'm some crusty old captain stuck in the old ways. I'm a new worker who's tired of hearing people bitching and whining about everything under the sun.
You can't reference conversation with an Encore pilot as a unionized worker because their contract hasn't even started to be negotiated (their union hasn't had the chance to do anything yet) . WestJet pilots have had their union win to defend what was one of the biggest undercutting aviation has seen in a long time. Encore pilots on the other hand have the right to bitch about their management, they're currently worked like dogs.

I have worked in aviation jobs in both unionized and non unionized conditions and I'll tell you right now, I'm not an old crusty captain, I'm not old at all, but 3 or 4 years down the line when you're in a company that isn't unionized and your CP brings you in a room for a decision you made based on safety you'll be wishing you had someone watching your back.

Establishing a union, for example, alpa, across the industry will do nothing but strengthen our contract negotiations across the board as alpa will be consistent with pay/working conditions across similar flying.

Company A won't be able to use company B as a reason to drop wages 10%, or lose pension, days off, etc. Because company B will be represented by a group of pilots with the same ideals as A.

Now, talk about unions in other fields is another story. Unions in some fields can be used as a ticket to call in sick/abuse injuries on the job, etc.
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by TheRealMcCoy »

FL007 wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:28 pmYou can't reference conversation with an Encore pilot as a unionized worker because their contract hasn't even started to be negotiated (their union hasn't had the chance to do anything yet) . WestJet pilots have had their union win to defend what was one of the biggest undercutting aviation has seen in a long time. Encore pilots on the other hand have the right to bitch about their management, they're currently worked like dogs.

I have worked in aviation jobs in both unionized and non unionized conditions and I'll tell you right now, I'm not an old crusty captain, I'm not old at all, but 3 or 4 years down the line when you're in a company that isn't unionized and your CP brings you in a room for a decision you made based on safety you'll be wishing you had someone watching your back.

Establishing a union, for example, alpa, across the industry will do nothing but strengthen our contract negotiations across the board as alpa will be consistent with pay/working conditions across similar flying.

Company A won't be able to use company B as a reason to drop wages 10%, or lose pension, days off, etc. Because company B will be represented by a group of pilots with the same ideals as A.

Now, talk about unions in other fields is another story. Unions in some fields can be used as a ticket to call in sick/abuse injuries on the job, etc.
You're splitting hairs there and you know it.

I'm not in a unionized company within my aviation career currently. I dread the day that that happens. I've worked union city work (two different cities), and two different waste companies. All of them sucked, and everything I hear about with AC/Jazz/Encore/WJ; sucks Every time I talked to a friend in the trades; sucks. It's nothing but whine, whine, whine. You don't like the job, find something else it's pretty fucking simple.

We aren't going to see eye to eye, so i'm probably just going to leave it there.
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by FL007 »

TheRealMcCoy wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:26 pm
FL007 wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:28 pmYou can't reference conversation with an Encore pilot as a unionized worker because their contract hasn't even started to be negotiated (their union hasn't had the chance to do anything yet) . WestJet pilots have had their union win to defend what was one of the biggest undercutting aviation has seen in a long time. Encore pilots on the other hand have the right to bitch about their management, they're currently worked like dogs.

I have worked in aviation jobs in both unionized and non unionized conditions and I'll tell you right now, I'm not an old crusty captain, I'm not old at all, but 3 or 4 years down the line when you're in a company that isn't unionized and your CP brings you in a room for a decision you made based on safety you'll be wishing you had someone watching your back.

Establishing a union, for example, alpa, across the industry will do nothing but strengthen our contract negotiations across the board as alpa will be consistent with pay/working conditions across similar flying.

Company A won't be able to use company B as a reason to drop wages 10%, or lose pension, days off, etc. Because company B will be represented by a group of pilots with the same ideals as A.

Now, talk about unions in other fields is another story. Unions in some fields can be used as a ticket to call in sick/abuse injuries on the job, etc.
You're splitting hairs there and you know it.

I'm not in a unionized company within my aviation career currently. I dread the day that that happens. I've worked union city work (two different cities), and two different waste companies. All of them sucked, and everything I hear about with AC/Jazz/Encore/WJ; sucks Every time I talked to a friend in the trades; sucks. It's nothing but whine, whine, whine. You don't like the job, find something else it's pretty fucking simple.

We aren't going to see eye to eye, so i'm probably just going to leave it there.
Fair we won't see eye to eye but I'm not splitting hairs on saying Encore pilots haven't seen the benefit of a union. They're literally working under the same conditions as before the union until contract negotiations are completed, only after can they partly blame working conditions on the contract they are partly responsible for...
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leftoftrack
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by leftoftrack »

is the Ontario college program not subsidized? pretty sure those guys and girls are coming out with 75k programs that they paid 25 or 30k for. wish I had someone pay for my license
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Re: DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

Post by shimmydampner »

Oh god. These topics are so nauseating. Especially the part where the snot nosed kids tell an accomplished aviator the way of the world while doing their best to diminish his career. It's hilarious to see the same mushy little cupcakes who would trip over their own undescended testicles for a $37k/yr right seat Q400 job, slag anyone who might be interested to fly a C46 or DC3. What exactly is there to feel proud about at such a job? That you are so lacking in self respect and the capacity for actual work, that you feel it's better to accept poverty wages to "fly" an aircraft that can fly itself rather than improve your hands and feet skills in an aircraft that demands it? To be clear, I don't work for Buffalo and never have, nor have I flown a C46 or DC3, although I wish I had. And, I can't say for sure, but I'll bet Buffalo pays equal or better wages than Jazz or Encore. Let me guess? Jazz or Encore will teach you all about how an FMS and autopilot works and Buffalo won't. Guaranteed they also won't teach you as much about the physical business of flying an airplane as Buffalo will. How about everyone who is well down the path of their effeminate, underachieving airline careers, stop passing judgement on up-and-comers who might be interested in something other than the bland, mind-numbing path that is today's ordinary. After all, it doesn't affect you anyways, so why not the shut the fnck up!? Watch out for the sea-walls, ya pnss!es!
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