DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

[goingnowherefast]

Because this type of job is back handed and dishonest. They're using flying as a carrot to get cheap labour for the rest of the operation. If they want a part-time pilot part-time dispatch, then call it that. Don't pretend it's full time pilot.

Jazz/Encore have a shit deal too, but at least they're honest.

[FL007]

Oh god. These topics are so nauseating. Especially the part where the snot nosed kids tell an accomplished aviator the way of the world while doing their best to diminish his career. It's hilarious to see the same mushy little cupcakes who would trip over their own undescended testicles for a $37k/yr right seat Q400 job, slag anyone who might be interested to fly a C46 or DC3. What exactly is there to feel proud about at such a job? That you are so lacking in self respect and the capacity for actual work, that you feel it's better to accept poverty wages to "fly" an aircraft that can fly itself rather than improve your hands and feet skills in an aircraft that demands it? To be clear, I don't work for Buffalo and never have, nor have I flown a C46 or DC3, although I wish I had. And, I can't say for sure, but I'll bet Buffalo pays equal or better wages than Jazz or Encore. Let me guess? Jazz or Encore will teach you all about how an FMS and autopilot works and Buffalo won't. Guaranteed they also won't teach you as much about the physical business of flying an airplane as Buffalo will. How about everyone who is well down the path of their effeminate, underachieving airline careers, stop passing judgement on up-and-comers who might be interested in something other than the bland, mind-numbing path that is today's ordinary. After all, it doesn't affect you anyways, so why not the shut the fnck up!? Watch out for the sea-walls, ya pnss!es!

Perfect example of selective reading, especially the part where no snot nosed kids have been telling accomplished aviators to apply at Jazz or Encore. In fact, I believe I said go slug it out in pickle lake. At least your job title would be what you thought it would.

It's about the bait and switch. They put up a FO job which clearly isn't an FO job, plain and simple.

And let's be clear, again, everyone has their their own path in this career, but as I feel I am an accomplished aviator I'd like to warn up and comers about these too good to be true job postings.

Chances are, they will have to go on the ramp somewhere, but at least they know that before they get on a plane to Yellowknife, telling all their friends they accepted a job as an FO on a DC3, only to be parked at a computer to flight watch.

[FishermanIvan]

Also, the whole 20 years after you start as an FO on a Q400 for Jazz, you're not still flying a Q400 unless you really, really want to. You move up, get promoted, and make WAY more money than I imagine you do at Buffalo, and you get vacation, GDOs and all that stuff as well.

[Zaibatsu]

Oh god. These topics are so nauseating. Especially the part where the snot nosed kids tell an accomplished aviator the way of the world while doing their best to diminish his career. It's hilarious to see the same mushy little cupcakes who would trip over their own undescended testicles for a $37k/yr right seat Q400 job, slag anyone who might be interested to fly a C46 or DC3.

Who’s diminishing who’s career? I think you’re reading things that aren’t there.

And if you think that $37k/yr in a Q400 in civilization is somehow worse than probably the same or less money to be a ramp slave and sometimes fly a DC-3 or C-46.

What exactly is there to feel proud about at such a job? That you are so lacking in self respect and the capacity for actual work, that you feel it's better to accept poverty wages to "fly" an aircraft that can fly itself rather than improve your hands and feet skills in an aircraft that demands it?

Are you aware of what Buffalo pays for this position? Or the cost of living in Yellowknife?

I’m guessing you don’t have any time on FMS/glass cockpit aircraft with that statement. Those are usually the only people who say “they fly themselves”.

To be clear, I don't work for Buffalo and never have, nor have I flown a C46 or DC3, although I wish I had. And, I can't say for sure, but I'll bet Buffalo pays equal or better wages than Jazz or Encore. Let me guess? Jazz or Encore will teach you all about how an FMS and autopilot works and Buffalo won't. Guaranteed they also won't teach you as much about the physical business of flying an airplane as Buffalo will.

You bet they pay more? If they do... it’s only because they won’t attract anyone paying less. That’s why they have “pilot” right in the job description, because nobody who just shelled out for a pilots licence is going to relocate to the Blade to drive a forklift.

How about everyone who is well down the path of their effeminate, underachieving airline careers, stop passing judgement on up-and-comers who might be interested in something other than the bland, mind-numbing path that is today's ordinary. After all, it doesn't affect you anyways, so why not the shut the fnck up!?

We’re not passing judgment like you are. We’re helping these up and comers avoid making a mistake when they could be looking at an upgrade on a Q in a year or two vs finally getting a full time FO spot at Buffalo, still a year or two away from their ATPL. A Q rating will take you anywhere in the world.. and that’s just the beginning of your progression. But boy, the guy who went to Buffalo will sure know how a pallet jack and a herc strap works! And they’ll have bragging rights over their future captain who started training at the same time but progressed further in his or her career.

Oh, and how many crashes has Jazz or Encore had? That’s right... combined it’s fewer than Buffalo. No fatalities either.

Watch out for the sea-walls, ya pnss!es!

On 28 August 2002, BFL928, a Douglas C-54E (C-GQIC), landed short of the runway at Diavik Airport. The right wing came off the aircraft, which travelled 1,000 ft (300 m) down the runway. The aircraft caught fire and was a write-off. The two crew escaped with minor injuries.

On 1 August 2003, Douglas C-54G C-GBSK touched down short of the runway at the Ulu mine strip. The landing gear collapsed and the wings separated from the fuselage. The wings then caught fire and the fuselage veered off the right side of the runway. The four crew were unhurt, but the aircraft was written off.

[Diadem]

I'm pretty sure this job ad is word-for-word the one they posted a few months ago for a rampie, but they added "Fly DC-3 and/or C-46 aircraft". I'm curious to know how a pilot can marshal in his/her own aircraft, or why it specifies that the pilot will provide weather briefings to him/herself.

[Aviatard]

After all, it doesn't affect you anyways, so why not the shut the fnck up!? Watch out for the sea-walls, ya pnss!es!

Impressive number of insults in one post. Life was shit for you so it might as well be shit for everyone amirite?

[shimmydampner]

And if you think that $37k/yr in a Q400 in civilization is somehow worse than probably the same or less money to be a ramp slave and sometimes fly a DC-3 or C-46.

Yes. I do think that's worse, but that's just my opinion.

We’re not passing judgment like you are. We’re helping these up and comers avoid making a mistake when they could be looking at an upgrade on a Q in a year or two vs finally getting a full time FO spot at Buffalo, still a year or two away from their ATPL. A Q rating will take you anywhere in the world.. and that’s just the beginning of your progression.

Oh god, I'm getting douche chills. Helping these up and comers? With the benefit of what, 5 years of your own experience to draw on? Do you even realize the level of ego in what you're saying? You are the arbiter of good career choices? You know what constitutes a mistake in strangers lives? Everyone should aspire to jump into the airline pipeline as soon as possible? You're looking at this strictly through your own lens, without allowing for any other possible points of view. You're assuming that you've got it all so figured out, that everyone should want what you've got. Thing is, there are plenty of reasons why a person might not share your views. If you were really trying to help out up and comers, you'd offer something constructive. But you didn't. Really you just wanted to be a smart ass and a dick and take an opportunity to shit on an operator and anyone who might be interested in that job, or line of work.
"Ramp slave, fixed it for you." @#$! off.

[C.W.E.]

. You're assuming that you've got it all so figured out, that everyone should want what you've got.

Not everyone thinks flying for a company like say Jazz is a great job.

The only way I could work there would to get a lobotomy so the boring day after day same old trips would not drive me crazy.

[TheRealMcCoy]

. You're assuming that you've got it all so figured out, that everyone should want what you've got.

Not everyone thinks flying for a company like say Jazz is a great job.

The only way I could work there would to get a lobotomy so the boring day after day same old trips would not drive me crazy.

Ding ding ding we have a winner!

I wonder if they remember what the rudder pedals do?

[digits_]

And if you think that $37k/yr in a Q400 in civilization is somehow worse than probably the same or less money to be a ramp slave and sometimes fly a DC-3 or C-46.

Yes. I do think that's worse, but that's just my opinion.

We’re not passing judgment like you are. We’re helping these up and comers avoid making a mistake when they could be looking at an upgrade on a Q in a year or two vs finally getting a full time FO spot at Buffalo, still a year or two away from their ATPL. A Q rating will take you anywhere in the world.. and that’s just the beginning of your progression.

Oh god, I'm getting douche chills. Helping these up and comers? With the benefit of what, 5 years of your own experience to draw on? Do you even realize the level of ego in what you're saying? You are the arbiter of good career choices? You know what constitutes a mistake in strangers lives? Everyone should aspire to jump into the airline pipeline as soon as possible? You're looking at this strictly through your own lens, without allowing for any other possible points of view. You're assuming that you've got it all so figured out, that everyone should want what you've got. Thing is, there are plenty of reasons why a person might not share your views. If you were really trying to help out up and comers, you'd offer something constructive. But you didn't. Really you just wanted to be a smart ass and a dick and take an opportunity to shit on an operator and anyone who might be interested in that job, or line of work.
"Ramp slave, fixed it for you." @#$! off.

No matter what your eventual flying career goal is, ANY FLYING job will prepare you better for said goal than any ramp job. If you want to fly a C46 or DC3, great. If you don't have the hours yet to qualify, go get a flying job and reapply as a direct entry FO or Captain. You'll have gained way more valuable experience than doing ramp/flight following jobs.

[TheRealMcCoy]

No matter what your eventual flying career goal is, ANY FLYING job will prepare you better for said goal than any ramp job. If you want to fly a C46 or DC3, great. If you don't have the hours yet to qualify, go get a flying job and reapply as a direct entry FO or Captain. You'll have gained way more valuable experience than doing ramp/flight following jobs.

Lol and lol.

[FL007]

No matter what your eventual flying career goal is, ANY FLYING job will prepare you better for said goal than any ramp job. If you want to fly a C46 or DC3, great. If you don't have the hours yet to qualify, go get a flying job and reapply as a direct entry FO or Captain. You'll have gained way more valuable experience than doing ramp/flight following jobs.

Lol and lol.

You think ramp work gives you way more valuable experience flying an aircraft than actually flying an aircraft. Should give the keys to the ground guys loading my bags on those 50kt days.

[SkySailor]

I've done a number of "boring" jobs over the years. My mistake perhaps. However, if Jazz were to call me, I'd consider myself to be the luckiest SOB on the face of this earth. If the Jazz job became "boring" enough to require a lobotomy, I've got my own plane to bring back the smile.......
Sometimes we don't know how good we got it, till it's gone.
Jus' sayin......

[C.W.E.]

We all have different likes and dislikes SkySailor and as our flying career gets longer and longer our ideas of what we like and dislike changes.

Early in my career I also thought that flying for an airlne would be the ultimate job but as time passed I found it just plain boring.

The only flying job I never got tired of was aerial application but that is just my own preference and it may not be all that great for other pilots. The problem with aerial application is the season is so short.

Now that I am retired I never get the desire to go back to flying and I prefer to drive rather than go through the agony of flying by airlines with all the time it takes to even get on the airplane..

[C-GGGQ]

No doubt . that different people will want different career paths. Aerial application sounds (and looks from when I see it around here) awesome. Like you said Season too short though. Airlines won't be for everyone and if you want to be a bush float operator then your path will be different than someone with their sights set on AC. However, I think that stating taking a job as quasi first officer on a dc3 for $28k plus mileage with undefined extra duties is far superior to flying the dash at Jazz if you had both options in front you as the other poster says is ignorant and just to stir the pot. Now a guy with 200tt is not being called by jazz though. So he's gotta decide if this job is going to be his ticket or what other options he has. Like I said it's not a TERRIBLE option. Just kind of dishonest in the job ad.

For the lower time guys considering the official word from Buffalo is 28,500 plus mileage and checkouts are coming in usually a week. Maybe two. People are on their second or third type by month 3. Dc3 or c46 to start with Elektra and King Air up for grabs later.

[shimmydampner]

No matter what your eventual flying career goal is, ANY FLYING job will prepare you better for said goal than any ramp job.

While that statement seems intuitive on the surface, and may well be true most times for most people, it's not true 100% of the time. I think it makes the basic assumption that most people make, that the airlines is the ultimate goal. In that case, it's probably true 100% of the time. However, let's take a hypothetical kid from Toronto, just out of flight school. She is gifted both in terms of intelligence and raw flying ability. She graduates top of her class and as such has the opportunity to be a part of a cadet program and go directly to the right seat of a Q400. However, she wants to be a turbo Otter pilot in the Yukon and after some research, has found an opportunity to join a company that has a fleet of small bush aircraft that will allow her to progress to her ultimate goal of turbo Otter pilot. The job would have her start out doing a little bit of everything. Answering phones, catching planes at the dock, helping other pilots load and fuel, as well as getting eased in to flight ops on the 172 on flights when the conditions are suitable. Being from Toronto, she's hasn't spent much time in small towns, the north, or the bush. She doesn't know a bung wrench from a wobble pump. But she's looking for exactly that sort of adventure and life experience. So, should she get flying right away, in hopes that all the right seat 705 airline time will parlay itself into a direct entry turbo Otter pilot job, or should she tough it out, starting at the bottom, learning the ropes?

[C.W.E.]

Getting back to the ground work part of any flying job when I got my start in the aerial application business I started with te company in the winter working with the mechanics on the fleet of airplanes they operated getting them ready for the next season.

They had two J3 Cubs two Super Cubs and four Stearmans.

A Stearman with that big P&W Radial is just awesome.

That winter I found out I loved working on them and as the years passed I found fixing aircraft was more challenging and interesting than flying them.

I still do, I have my garage set up as an airplane building space and am starting on another project to keep me young and active.

[SkySailor]

She should take the Q400 job. Stable, and lots of potential for the future. That's reality.
Then she should build a Super Cub clone and put it on floats for her spare time. That's fantasy. And it's attainable without sacrificing the stability of the Q400

[digits_]

No matter what your eventual flying career goal is, ANY FLYING job will prepare you better for said goal than any ramp job.

While that statement seems intuitive on the surface, and may well be true most times for most people, it's not true 100% of the time. I think it makes the basic assumption that most people make, that the airlines is the ultimate goal. In that case, it's probably true 100% of the time. However, let's take a hypothetical kid from Toronto, just out of flight school. She is gifted both in terms of intelligence and raw flying ability. She graduates top of her class and as such has the opportunity to be a part of a cadet program and go directly to the right seat of a Q400. However, she wants to be a turbo Otter pilot in the Yukon and after some research, has found an opportunity to join a company that has a fleet of small bush aircraft that will allow her to progress to her ultimate goal of turbo Otter pilot. The job would have her start out doing a little bit of everything. Answering phones, catching planes at the dock, helping other pilots load and fuel, as well as getting eased in to flight ops on the 172 on flights when the conditions are suitable. Being from Toronto, she's hasn't spent much time in small towns, the north, or the bush. She doesn't know a bung wrench from a wobble pump. But she's looking for exactly that sort of adventure and life experience. So, should she get flying right away, in hopes that all the right seat 705 airline time will parlay itself into a direct entry turbo Otter pilot job, or should she tough it out, starting at the bottom, learning the ropes?

In your example the 705 job, or the 172 job if it involves a significant amount of flying.

Learning how a pump works or how to load a plane can be done in a week or less. No need to underpay her for 6 months to get cheap labor. She will be an fo on the otter first anyway, so the company should, ideally, put her in there as a form of advanced instruction.

[shimmydampner]

So are you looking at this strictly through your own lens and preconceptions or do you honestly believe that the airlines is the ultimate, and everything else is second best? Do you seriously believe that everyone should either aspire to that, or deny their aspirations for $37k/yr? If you seriously believe that, I can't see any possibility for a reasonable discussion. You would essentially be saying we should all be mindless drones, one way or another. I can't imagine what a depressing 40+ year career that would be.
I'm going to guess you haven't been in aviation all that long if you think the airline life is "stable." Just because the getting is good now and you've never known anything else, it wasn't always this way, and there's nothing guaranteeing that it will stay that way. This is from just 10 years ago: https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-air ... 0120080702
Things look good now. Let's hope they stay that way. Until then, there's plenty of room and opportunity for most everyone to do whatever it is they want to do, whether it's 18 nights a month in hotels or a summer in a cabin by a lake.

I'm sorry, a single Otter FO? What would be the purpose of this? Our example assumes she will start on the 172. I'm not aware of too many companies that operate single Otters two crew. I am, however, aware of a number of companies that start pilots on small Cessna singles.
So you're of the opinion that a 20 year old city kid could, after a week on the job, be sent off alone into the bush, fully equipped for whatever situation might confront them? You really believe that there is that little to such a job?