Air Canada Tokyo Incident
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident
Unacceptable... How does this kind of shit ever happens with those AMM moving maps on the ND ?!
Last edited by daedalusx on Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident
Well that's embarrassing. Maybe it wasn't marked out very well?
Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident
12 hours flight ... Maybe they didn't have time to peruse through the notams...
A2657/18 NOTAMN
Q) RJJJ/QMXLC/IV/M/A/000/999/3546N14023E005
A) RJAA B) 1807021430 C) 1807312020
D) 02-06 09-13 16-20 23-27 30 31 1430/2020
E) TWY B[BTN N-HOLD AND G] B7 B8 B9 E1 G[BTN B AND V1-HOLD]
K[BTN B AND E2]-CLSD DUE TO CONST RMK/EXC ACFT IN AIC 025/13 ITEM 2
CREATED: 02 Jul 2018 05:48:00
SOURCE: RJAAYNYX
Or maybe Boeing/Honeywell can work on a system using ADS-B and activate the autobrakes when a plane is heading toward the wrong taxiway/runway ...
https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... 2011_q1/2/
A2657/18 NOTAMN
Q) RJJJ/QMXLC/IV/M/A/000/999/3546N14023E005
A) RJAA B) 1807021430 C) 1807312020
D) 02-06 09-13 16-20 23-27 30 31 1430/2020
E) TWY B[BTN N-HOLD AND G] B7 B8 B9 E1 G[BTN B AND V1-HOLD]
K[BTN B AND E2]-CLSD DUE TO CONST RMK/EXC ACFT IN AIC 025/13 ITEM 2
CREATED: 02 Jul 2018 05:48:00
SOURCE: RJAAYNYX
Or maybe Boeing/Honeywell can work on a system using ADS-B and activate the autobrakes when a plane is heading toward the wrong taxiway/runway ...
https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... 2011_q1/2/
In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident
With the state of NOTAMs today, I don't think anyone can be blamed for missing one. The system is a complete disaster. There are way too many NOTAMs, and they are written in a cryptic format that hasn't made sense for 50 years.
-
- Rank Moderator
- Posts: 5602
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:47 pm
- Location: Straight outta Dundarave...
Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident
Back open now: https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20180731_02/
Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident
Sure... Somehow wasn't an issue to anyone else landing there in the last couple of weeks ... Then again we had AC apologist defending the Halifax and SFO crews ...
In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident
So no other airline has ever gone down a wrong taxiway? I remember a few months ago Ground ripping JAL a new one in YVR for pushing onto a taxiway without calling.
Moving maps are a lot like the backup camera in my car. Very nice to have, but distracting and not necessarily fool proof. The moving map in my plane has the Jepp plates which aren’t always labelled the best as far as taxiways go and the plane sometimes has lag.
Finally.. a closed taxiway should be blocked. It shouldn’t have been possible to taxi there without running into barriers.
Moving maps are a lot like the backup camera in my car. Very nice to have, but distracting and not necessarily fool proof. The moving map in my plane has the Jepp plates which aren’t always labelled the best as far as taxiways go and the plane sometimes has lag.
Finally.. a closed taxiway should be blocked. It shouldn’t have been possible to taxi there without running into barriers.
Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident
Excellent idea.Finally.. a closed taxiway should be blocked. It shouldn’t have been possible to taxi there without running into barriers.
And to make it even safer if they had a big multi colour fence about fifty feet high with flashing red lights on it that popped up every time an airplane was on the taxi way it may motivate some crews to go around a bit higher than Air Canada did in SFO.
Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident
How much time do you have taxiing around busy airports, CWE? Or taking a heavy jet into an airport with multiple parallel runways at night with an offset approach course and the other runway closed?
Anything that helps is a good idea. In fact, I’m sure many modern safety devices and procedures were developed in spite of scoffs from an older generation, and who are (sometimes) silenced when the drop in crash statistics manifests itself.
Remember, it’s still likely that all of these pilots have a crash-free record as well. How do your personal fuckups compare? How many would have been reported or newsworthy had they been at a busy international airport?
Anything that helps is a good idea. In fact, I’m sure many modern safety devices and procedures were developed in spite of scoffs from an older generation, and who are (sometimes) silenced when the drop in crash statistics manifests itself.
Remember, it’s still likely that all of these pilots have a crash-free record as well. How do your personal fuckups compare? How many would have been reported or newsworthy had they been at a busy international airport?
Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident
And just to be clear... I’ve had many fuckups in my career which would have closed down an airport or made the news had it been at an international airport rather than a remote one. Simple things like getting a reciprocal runway or taxiway wrong
-
- Rank 2
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:00 pm
Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident
CWE has a good track record of conveniently ignoring statistics or just simply going quiet when they are brought up. He much prefers anecdotal evidence that agrees with his rhetoric.
Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident
I wonder why they wanted to deplane? Couldn't they get a tow back to the runway and taxi in to the gate?
Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident
Lucky for you there were no barriers otherwise it might have been rather embarrassing to see a shiny new 787 vs barrier event.Zaibatsu wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:32 am So no other airline has ever gone down a wrong taxiway? I remember a few months ago Ground ripping JAL a new one in YVR for pushing onto a taxiway without calling.
Moving maps are a lot like the backup camera in my car. Very nice to have, but distracting and not necessarily fool proof. The moving map in my plane has the Jepp plates which aren’t always labelled the best as far as taxiways go and the plane sometimes has lag.
Finally.. a closed taxiway should be blocked. It shouldn’t have been possible to taxi there without running into barriers.
Liberalism itself as a religion where its tenets cannot be proven, but provides a sense of moral rectitude at no real cost.
Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident
Well Lets see, my first real exposure to busy airports was in 1964 when I flew courrier flights five nights a week from Windsor Ont. into Chicago O'Hare in a Beech 18.How much time do you have taxiing around busy airports, CWE?
Were you flying into busy airports in 1964 Zaibatsu ?
During my last few years flying for a living I was flying out of Cape Town, Paris, London, and Amsterdam on a regular basis and of course many airports to numerous to list here ferrying airplanes for clients.
Does that give me some credibility or the possibility I have an idea how to find my way around them?
Or does it have to be in heavy jets to really count?
I guess many decades of flying for a living is not having experience, it is just rhetoric in your world huh?CWE has a good track record of conveniently ignoring statistics or just simply going quiet when they are brought up. He much prefers anecdotal evidence that agrees with his rhetoric.
Oh, and with zero accidents or violations of the rules in over fifty countries means nothing either?
Last edited by C.W.E. on Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident
Looking at my Jepp charts, it appears to be 16L, the shorter of the two runways. As you can see in the pic, they were exiting near the far end of the runway. No doubt, it can be easy to take the wrong taxiway especially on the rollout. This taxiway to nowhere is not shown on the Jeppesen chart(20-9) and when doing a review of the planned exit, one will expect only one possible high speed exit near the very end of the runway increasing the likelyhood to go for it. However, a new one is under construction. It is not shown on the Jeppesen charts or Google Earth and the notam that someone else posted does not refer to it.
So what can be done to prevent this. When ATC gives you a taxiway to exit the runway look for the signs that designate that taxiway before going onto it. Frequently no instruction is given as to which taxi one should take to exit the runway. But there are some hints here in the picture. No yellow line leading off from the runway and a white runway edge line that was crossed which is not the case for the next high speed exit that is Taxiway B7.
It appears that the notam was not fully in effect, if at all, as they were instructed to use B7. Its been posted on the Youtube video below. Two hours later, ATC advises that they have to get steel boards to put on the grass for towing and they can expect an indefinite delay.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaXAuYyESFI
So what can be done to prevent this. When ATC gives you a taxiway to exit the runway look for the signs that designate that taxiway before going onto it. Frequently no instruction is given as to which taxi one should take to exit the runway. But there are some hints here in the picture. No yellow line leading off from the runway and a white runway edge line that was crossed which is not the case for the next high speed exit that is Taxiway B7.
It appears that the notam was not fully in effect, if at all, as they were instructed to use B7. Its been posted on the Youtube video below. Two hours later, ATC advises that they have to get steel boards to put on the grass for towing and they can expect an indefinite delay.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaXAuYyESFI
Last edited by pelmet on Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:58 am, edited 5 times in total.
Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident
were you not just complaining AC wasn't interviewing you? Would be fantastic if C.S can find out who you are and blacklist you for throwing shade online. Maybe they will? When the PFO comes maybe it's because you're trashing AC online? hmmmm.....
Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident
"1964" "busy"C.W.E. wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:17 pmWell Lets see, my first real exposure to busy airports was in 1964 when I flew courrier flights five nights a week from Windsor Ont. into Chicago O'Hare in a Beech 18.How much time do you have taxiing around busy airports, CWE?
Were you flying into busy airports in 1964 Zaibatsu ?
During my last few years flying for a living I was flying out of Cape Town, Paris, London, and Amsterdam on a regular basis and of course many airports to numerous to list here ferrying airplanes for clients.
Does that give me some credibility or the possibility I have an idea how to find my way around them?
Or does it have to be in heavy jets to really count?
I guess many decades of flying for a living is not having experience, it is just rhetoric in your world huh?CWE has a good track record of conveniently ignoring statistics or just simply going quiet when they are brought up. He much prefers anecdotal evidence that agrees with his rhetoric.
Oh, and with zero accidents or violations of the rules in over fifty countries means nothing either?
- rookiepilot
- Rank 11
- Posts: 4403
- Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm
-
- Rank 11
- Posts: 4562
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
- Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME
Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident
I truly hate looking through Notams trying to find the one that will make my look dumb when I ask for a closed runway, or taxi way. There are hundreds of useless Notams about towers, cranes, temporary closures, and procedure altitudes that seem so important that we waste ink on them yet 10 CAP's later and Navcan can't be bothered to waste ink updating the IAPs. And i't impossible not to get all the Heliport, and off route runway Notams clogging up the feed.
A great example of how to F up a Notam search is CYEG. Just the Aerodrome Notams, there are 49! How many of them are for CYEG you ask? Fourteen. But at least the actual Aerodrome Notams are all together right? Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
Even searching Local Notams only still gives useless Heliports and farm runways.