Air Canada Tokyo Incident

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Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by ahramin » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:25 am

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daedalusx
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by daedalusx » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:10 am

Unacceptable... How does this kind of shit ever happens with those AMM moving maps on the ND ?!
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Last edited by daedalusx on Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"

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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by ant_321 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:11 am

Well that's embarrassing. Maybe it wasn't marked out very well?
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by daedalusx » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:29 am

12 hours flight ... Maybe they didn't have time to peruse through the notams...

A2657/18 NOTAMN
Q) RJJJ/QMXLC/IV/M/A/000/999/3546N14023E005
A) RJAA B) 1807021430 C) 1807312020
D) 02-06 09-13 16-20 23-27 30 31 1430/2020
E) TWY B[BTN N-HOLD AND G] B7 B8 B9 E1 G[BTN B AND V1-HOLD]
K[BTN B AND E2]-CLSD DUE TO CONST RMK/EXC ACFT IN AIC 025/13 ITEM 2
CREATED: 02 Jul 2018 05:48:00
SOURCE: RJAAYNYX

Or maybe Boeing/Honeywell can work on a system using ADS-B and activate the autobrakes when a plane is heading toward the wrong taxiway/runway ...
https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... 2011_q1/2/
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"

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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by ahramin » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:37 am

With the state of NOTAMs today, I don't think anyone can be blamed for missing one. The system is a complete disaster. There are way too many NOTAMs, and they are written in a cryptic format that hasn't made sense for 50 years.

CASAAusNotam.png
CASAAusNotam.png (58.42 KiB) Viewed 3770 times
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by North Shore » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:47 am

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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by daedalusx » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:01 am

ahramin wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:37 am
With the state of NOTAMs today, I don't think anyone can be blamed for missing one. The system is a complete disaster. There are way too many NOTAMs, and they are written in a cryptic format that hasn't made sense for 50 years.


CASAAusNotam.png
Sure... :roll: Somehow wasn't an issue to anyone else landing there in the last couple of weeks ... Then again we had AC apologist defending the Halifax and SFO crews ...
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"

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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Zaibatsu » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:32 am

So no other airline has ever gone down a wrong taxiway? I remember a few months ago Ground ripping JAL a new one in YVR for pushing onto a taxiway without calling.

Moving maps are a lot like the backup camera in my car. Very nice to have, but distracting and not necessarily fool proof. The moving map in my plane has the Jepp plates which aren’t always labelled the best as far as taxiways go and the plane sometimes has lag.

Finally.. a closed taxiway should be blocked. It shouldn’t have been possible to taxi there without running into barriers.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by C.W.E. » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:08 am

Finally.. a closed taxiway should be blocked. It shouldn’t have been possible to taxi there without running into barriers.
Excellent idea.

And to make it even safer if they had a big multi colour fence about fifty feet high with flashing red lights on it that popped up every time an airplane was on the taxi way it may motivate some crews to go around a bit higher than Air Canada did in SFO.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Zaibatsu » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:28 am

How much time do you have taxiing around busy airports, CWE? Or taking a heavy jet into an airport with multiple parallel runways at night with an offset approach course and the other runway closed?

Anything that helps is a good idea. In fact, I’m sure many modern safety devices and procedures were developed in spite of scoffs from an older generation, and who are (sometimes) silenced when the drop in crash statistics manifests itself.

Remember, it’s still likely that all of these pilots have a crash-free record as well. How do your personal fuckups compare? How many would have been reported or newsworthy had they been at a busy international airport?
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Zaibatsu » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:32 am

And just to be clear... I’ve had many fuckups in my career which would have closed down an airport or made the news had it been at an international airport rather than a remote one. Simple things like getting a reciprocal runway or taxiway wrong
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Bacunayagua
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Bacunayagua » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:42 am

CWE has a good track record of conveniently ignoring statistics or just simply going quiet when they are brought up. He much prefers anecdotal evidence that agrees with his rhetoric.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Lightchop » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:45 am

I wonder why they wanted to deplane? Couldn't they get a tow back to the runway and taxi in to the gate?
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by telex » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:48 am

Zaibatsu wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:32 am
So no other airline has ever gone down a wrong taxiway? I remember a few months ago Ground ripping JAL a new one in YVR for pushing onto a taxiway without calling.

Moving maps are a lot like the backup camera in my car. Very nice to have, but distracting and not necessarily fool proof. The moving map in my plane has the Jepp plates which aren’t always labelled the best as far as taxiways go and the plane sometimes has lag.

Finally.. a closed taxiway should be blocked. It shouldn’t have been possible to taxi there without running into barriers.
Lucky for you there were no barriers otherwise it might have been rather embarrassing to see a shiny new 787 vs barrier event.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by C.W.E. » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:17 pm

How much time do you have taxiing around busy airports, CWE?
Well Lets see, my first real exposure to busy airports was in 1964 when I flew courrier flights five nights a week from Windsor Ont. into Chicago O'Hare in a Beech 18.


Were you flying into busy airports in 1964 Zaibatsu ?

During my last few years flying for a living I was flying out of Cape Town, Paris, London, and Amsterdam on a regular basis and of course many airports to numerous to list here ferrying airplanes for clients.

Does that give me some credibility or the possibility I have an idea how to find my way around them?

Or does it have to be in heavy jets to really count?
CWE has a good track record of conveniently ignoring statistics or just simply going quiet when they are brought up. He much prefers anecdotal evidence that agrees with his rhetoric.
I guess many decades of flying for a living is not having experience, it is just rhetoric in your world huh?

Oh, and with zero accidents or violations of the rules in over fifty countries means nothing either?
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Last edited by C.W.E. on Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by pelmet » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:27 pm

Looking at my Jepp charts, it appears to be 16L, the shorter of the two runways. As you can see in the pic, they were exiting near the far end of the runway. No doubt, it can be easy to take the wrong taxiway especially on the rollout. This taxiway to nowhere is not shown on the Jeppesen chart(20-9) and when doing a review of the planned exit, one will expect only one possible high speed exit near the very end of the runway increasing the likelyhood to go for it. However, a new one is under construction. It is not shown on the Jeppesen charts or Google Earth and the notam that someone else posted does not refer to it.

So what can be done to prevent this. When ATC gives you a taxiway to exit the runway look for the signs that designate that taxiway before going onto it. Frequently no instruction is given as to which taxi one should take to exit the runway. But there are some hints here in the picture. No yellow line leading off from the runway and a white runway edge line that was crossed which is not the case for the next high speed exit that is Taxiway B7.

It appears that the notam was not fully in effect, if at all, as they were instructed to use B7. Its been posted on the Youtube video below. Two hours later, ATC advises that they have to get steel boards to put on the grass for towing and they can expect an indefinite delay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaXAuYyESFI
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Last edited by pelmet on Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:58 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Hangry » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:40 pm

daedalusx wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:01 am
ahramin wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:37 am
With the state of NOTAMs today, I don't think anyone can be blamed for missing one. The system is a complete disaster. There are way too many NOTAMs, and they are written in a cryptic format that hasn't made sense for 50 years.


CASAAusNotam.png
Sure... :roll: Somehow wasn't an issue to anyone else landing there in the last couple of weeks ... Then again we had AC apologist defending the Halifax and SFO crews ...
were you not just complaining AC wasn't interviewing you? Would be fantastic if C.S can find out who you are and blacklist you for throwing shade online. Maybe they will? When the PFO comes maybe it's because you're trashing AC online? hmmmm.....
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Lightchop » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:03 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:17 pm
How much time do you have taxiing around busy airports, CWE?
Well Lets see, my first real exposure to busy airports was in 1964 when I flew courrier flights five nights a week from Windsor Ont. into Chicago O'Hare in a Beech 18.


Were you flying into busy airports in 1964 Zaibatsu ?

During my last few years flying for a living I was flying out of Cape Town, Paris, London, and Amsterdam on a regular basis and of course many airports to numerous to list here ferrying airplanes for clients.

Does that give me some credibility or the possibility I have an idea how to find my way around them?

Or does it have to be in heavy jets to really count?
CWE has a good track record of conveniently ignoring statistics or just simply going quiet when they are brought up. He much prefers anecdotal evidence that agrees with his rhetoric.
I guess many decades of flying for a living is not having experience, it is just rhetoric in your world huh?

Oh, and with zero accidents or violations of the rules in over fifty countries means nothing either?
"1964" "busy"
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by rookiepilot » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:30 pm

Zaibatsu wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:32 am
Finally.. a closed taxiway should be blocked. It shouldn’t have been possible to taxi there without running into barriers.
That would've been good.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by co-joe » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:19 pm

daedalusx wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:01 am
ahramin wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:37 am
With the state of NOTAMs today, I don't think anyone can be blamed for missing one. The system is a complete disaster. There are way too many NOTAMs, and they are written in a cryptic format that hasn't made sense for 50 years.


CASAAusNotam.png
Sure... :roll: Somehow wasn't an issue to anyone else landing there in the last couple of weeks ... Then again we had AC apologist defending the Halifax and SFO crews ...
I truly hate looking through Notams trying to find the one that will make my look dumb when I ask for a closed runway, or taxi way. There are hundreds of useless Notams about towers, cranes, temporary closures, and procedure altitudes that seem so important that we waste ink on them yet 10 CAP's later and Navcan can't be bothered to waste ink updating the IAPs. And i't impossible not to get all the Heliport, and off route runway Notams clogging up the feed.

A great example of how to F up a Notam search is CYEG. Just the Aerodrome Notams, there are 49! How many of them are for CYEG you ask? Fourteen. But at least the actual Aerodrome Notams are all together right? Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

Even searching Local Notams only still gives useless Heliports and farm runways.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by C.W.E. » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:51 pm

"1964" "busy"
In 1964 O'hare was one of the worlds busiest airports and I was answering this question.

How much time do you have taxiing around busy airports, CWE?
In 1964 O'hare was very busy at times and it could be quite a chore keeping up to a line of DC8's and B707's at their taxi speed flying single pilot in a B18.

Have you tried to mix with big jets on the taxiways at O'hare flying a B18 single pilot?

The longest taxiway I have used was 15,500 feet long at FVHA, so you had lots of room to fast taxi if you wished.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Jean-Pierre » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:13 pm

In 1973 I weaved a B18 through the landing gear strut of 747s like a slalom course. Sorry for them I was now number 1 for takeoff.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Jack Klumpus » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:50 pm

Not a 787 pilot, however I imagine their moving map is similar to the one I use. You can edit the Map, and one of the functions is to insert a Cross on closed runways, taxiways. This serves a few purposes:

- something to do while in flight
- to remind us after the 12 hour flight which taxiways are closed

Yes we have millions of NOTAMS, and it sucks going through them, but you dont need to look at the taxiway closures at Tashkent, Uzbekistan, (Unless its being used for a driftdown or emergency enroute airport), however, at least have a thorough look at your Departure, Arrival, and Alternate airports. While enroute, it can kill a few minutes by checking out the nearest usable airports, seeing if they infact are usable, etc.

We all make mistakes, but let's try and mitigate those threats.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by altiplano » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:27 pm

Doesn't seem so cut and dry...

http://avherald.com/h?article=4bbbea30&opt=0
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Victory » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:04 am

It was already mentioned by pelmet above that this taxiway wasn't on any chart and not in the NOTAMs. It's hard for you guys to change your mind once you've already decided on something.
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