Air Canada Tokyo Incident

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pelmet
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by pelmet »

altiplano wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:08 am No notam, no signage, not depicted on the chart.
Are you sure there was no notam(perhaps you are). From my point of view, all I can confirm so far is that the notam posted at the beginning of the thread is not applicable. Haven’t seen what the published notams for the airport were at the time of the incident.
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Rockie
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Rockie »

pelmet wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:19 am
altiplano wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:08 am No notam, no signage, not depicted on the chart.
Are you sure there was no notam(perhaps you are). From my point of view, all I can confirm so far is that the notam posted at the beginning of the thread is not applicable. Haven’t seen what the published notams for the airport were at the time of the incident.
Are you beginning to see yet the value of waiting for the facts Pelmet, rather than shooting your mouth off with nothing to back you up? Waste of time and credibility.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by pelmet »

Rockie wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:53 am
pelmet wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:19 am
altiplano wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:08 am No notam, no signage, not depicted on the chart.
Are you sure there was no notam(perhaps you are). From my point of view, all I can confirm so far is that the notam posted at the beginning of the thread is not applicable. Haven’t seen what the published notams for the airport were at the time of the incident.
Are you beginning to see yet the value of waiting for the facts Pelmet, rather than shooting your mouth off with nothing to back you up? Waste of time and credibility.
Your fellow company pilot is the one who may(or may not) have made an inaccurate statement which I am attempting to clarify.

But let’s see how credible your last post was by having you point out in detail of what I have posted on this thread that is not credible. In fact, it is all quite pertinent(with some interesting history of the airport added on).

Embarrassing the company again, eh.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by pelmet »

Unfortunately, some people don't like others posting information which could help avoid an incident but it is too important not to. There is another lesson to be learned here, although it may upset Rockie if I point it out...…..it was mentioned earlier. Don't taxi over green painted areas unless you are absolutely sure it is OK to do so. As you can see in the picture in the thread, the new taxiway has been painted green on the part near the runway in order to make it supposedly look like grass.
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Rockie
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Rockie »

pelmet wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:18 am But let’s see how credible your last post was by having you point out in detail of what I have posted on this thread that is not credible.
In the absense of fact you post innuendo meant not to clarify, but to suggest. Not even close to credible.
pelmet wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:18 am Your fellow company pilot is the one who may(or may not) have made an inaccurate statement which I am attempting to clarify.
pelmet wrote: Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:32 am Nobody else ended up on this taxiway and probably wasn't paved just yesterday. Should you look for a taxiway sign name before you go onto a taxiway? After all, there are old, closed taxiways that may not be marked. Are you one of those guys exiting at such a high speed that it feels more like a swerve and most of your concentration is focused on slowing down and maintaining control instead of exiting at a reasonable speed and scanning around at which point the very close by, actual high speed exit will be seen. Do the paint markings make sense? Do you use the yellow centerline stripe as a reference or the centerline lights?
pelmet wrote: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:27 pmRockie could provide some more info but he may have been quietly told by his employer to stop embarrassing them and no longer post on company incidents.
pelmet wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:18 am Embarrassing the company again, eh.
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pelmet
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by pelmet »

Rockie wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:36 am
pelmet wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:18 am But let’s see how credible your last post was by having you point out in detail of what I have posted on this thread that is not credible.
In the absense of fact you post innuendo meant not to clarify, but to suggest. Not even close to credible.
pelmet wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:18 am Your fellow company pilot is the one who may(or may not) have made an inaccurate statement which I am attempting to clarify.
pelmet wrote: Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:32 am Nobody else ended up on this taxiway and probably wasn't paved just yesterday. Should you look for a taxiway sign name before you go onto a taxiway? After all, there are old, closed taxiways that may not be marked. Are you one of those guys exiting at such a high speed that it feels more like a swerve and most of your concentration is focused on slowing down and maintaining control instead of exiting at a reasonable speed and scanning around at which point the very close by, actual high speed exit will be seen. Do the paint markings make sense? Do you use the yellow centerline stripe as a reference or the centerline lights?
pelmet wrote: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:27 pmRockie could provide some more info but he may have been quietly told by his employer to stop embarrassing them and no longer post on company incidents.
pelmet wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:18 am Embarrassing the company again, eh.
All flight related stuff is applicable to any typical airline flight. Ian well aware that this could have happened to me and are some of the initial thoughts I have made to myself to hopefully prevent the same happening to me.

However, I while I only said "May Have Been Told", I will assume that you are confirming otherwise, welcome you back from a long period of minimal posting and remove it. Then we can continue to discuss ways to prevent future incidents.
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Last edited by pelmet on Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Cat Driver »

Look at the bright side of these events pelmet.

Air Canada and Rockie do give us some interesting stuff to examine and maybe learn from.

Remember this is an aviation forum and these events are something that gives us things to examine and maybe figure out what not to do.

I am waiting to see if we find out why that Navajo landed on the street in Calgary and these Air Canada events are something to fill in the time as they are if nothing else, interesting.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Rockie »

You're assuming incorrectly Pelmet...again.

And you’re employing innuendo...again.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by C.W.E. »

Are there many other screw ups made by airlines that just do not make it into the news?

One would wonder why Air Canada seems to have these embarrassing events considering there are so many way bigger airlines flying into the same airports but we don't seem to hear about them doing the same things so often.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by pelmet »

Rockie wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:16 pm You're assuming incorrectly Pelmet...again.

And you’re employing innuendo...again.
Regardless of how you feel, they are ideas for myself to consider. And they will work. I doubt there will be a report from the Japanese for something so minor and guess what........In the name of company secrecy, Rockie will never pass on a report(or information gained) onto this forum. Kind of convenient I suppose for AC. It all just disappears. So, all the rest of us have left is guesses or thoughts on how to prevent, yet we are the bad guys. However, I do promise to not say anything else if you promise to give all info that comes your way on what happened and what is being done to prevent it happening again so others can learn.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Rockie »

If I knew the facts Pelmet, I wouldn’t feel obliged to feed them to a pair of internet trolls interested only in painting Air Canada as an unsafe airline. Innuendo is the tool of cowards afraid to come right out and make an accusation. If Air Canada is unsafe why don’t you and . put your heads together and state in clear terms why?
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by rookiepilot »

Rockie I'm curious if you think posters on an internet blog should be allowed to comment:

1) On all incidents.
2) On no incidents
3) On all incidents except Air Canada.

Fwiw I think this one is much ado about nothing.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Old fella »

Rockie wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:39 am If I knew the facts Pelmet, I wouldn’t feel obliged to feed them to a pair of internet trolls interested only in painting Air Canada as an unsafe airline. Innuendo is the tool of cowards afraid to come right out and make an accusation. If Air Canada is unsafe why don’t you and . put your heads together and state in clear terms why?
This incident is much to do about nothing outside of possible embarrassment, that is if you can call it such. The appearance I got was there were questionable if any notams on the new construction activity, no barricades no obstructing lighting to indicate a no entry area. The aircraft wasn’t damaged from what I read, just the inconvenience of a tow out and deplaning the passengers after a 12 hr flight. Not the first time such incidents happened and won’t be the last. You can bet that Japanese Airport Authority is reviewing their procedures, Air Canada no doubt as well. The Aviation Herald had a very good written expose as I saw.

Slow AVCanada Newsweek in the hot August summer wx I guess that generated three pages and counting commentary. Anyway, carry on chaps.
:drinkers: :drinkers:
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by C.W.E. »

Innuendo is the tool of cowards
I love the above statement.

Written by someone who hides behind a made up name.

At least I have the self worth to post using my real name .

. ..
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by altiplano »

Really? . ./C.W.E./Cat Driver?

Is that what makes a comment any more or less valid?Or gives an individual worth?

Whether I agree or not in this case...

There is a lot of great perspective on this site and the internet in general from anonymous contributors... of course there are equal parts lot drivel from named and unnamed contributors too.

There is a prejudice apparent in some posts, and from some posters... not really discussing at all but obviously with an agenda... is AC the only airline that takes a wrong taxiway? of course not... the reason why everyone here is all over it vs. another incident? or why pelmet or yourself are so keyed on it? only you know...

Probably 60+ years of combined experience and uneventful flying at AC in those seats that day... they made a mistake. I posted earlier what I thought the trap was from looking at the information available. What do you think?
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Cat Driver »

Really? . ./C.W.E./Cat Driver?

Is that what makes a comment any more or less valid?Or gives an individual worth?
My comment re using my real name was aimed at Rockie who called me a coward and I said at least I don't hide behind a made up name, is that against the rules?.
I posted earlier what I thought the trap was from looking at the information available. What do you think?
I have said it was possible to make that mistake, I also find it interesting that Air Canada seems to do it more than the other airlines, especially that SFO one that was really, really close to an aviation disaster.
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pelmet
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by pelmet »

Rockie wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:39 am If I knew the facts Pelmet, I wouldn’t feel obliged to feed them to a pair of internet trolls interested only in painting Air Canada as an unsafe airline. Innuendo is the tool of cowards afraid to come right out and make an accusation. If Air Canada is unsafe why don’t you and . put your heads together and state in clear terms why?
It is not for me to say whether AC is safe or unsafe. The facts, good and bad stand for themself. But seeing as you have confirmed that you won't publish any lessons learned to any of us here....ever(which understandably could be done under another handle for anonymity), using the excuse that a couple of posters here have an agenda, I would say that this shows more about your attitude toward promoting aviation safety through lessons learned than mine.

However, as much as I am now a coward, I can guarantee you that the act of identifying a taxiway sign to confirm that they would go onto the taxiway they had been cleared to go onto was not done. Perhaps most of us would have done the same(and I seriously believe that I would have fallen into the same trap) but it is still a part of what happened. You know it and so do I. Hurling insults will not change that fact and the fact that identifying a taxiway sign can prevent what happened.
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Last edited by pelmet on Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by pelmet »

altiplano wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:59 am I posted earlier what I thought the trap was from looking at the information available. What do you think?
So did I...as seen here.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=125781&start=25#p1047414
altiplano wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:59 am There is a lot of great perspective on this site and the internet in general from anonymous contributors... of course there are equal parts lot drivel from named and unnamed contributors too.

There is a prejudice apparent in some posts, and from some posters... not really discussing at all but obviously with an agenda... is AC the only airline that takes a wrong taxiway? of course not... the reason why everyone here is all over it vs. another incident? or why pelmet or yourself are so keyed on it? only you know...
And you know my perspective if you review my posts. It is simply to distribute ideas and informaton to prevent again. This includes for myself as discussing it drives home in my memory about an incident and may be something that ten years from now gets vaguely remembered at the right time to save the day as I am well aware that I can make the same mistake.

It is interesting when you consider the large number of incidents that I have commented on over the years that whenever an AC incident comes up, I am accused by the AC guys of having an agenda. Didn't see any WJ guys saying similar on the St, Martin incident thread when I made comments on how it might have been prevented. A few challenged me but not from an "I have some sort of anti-WJ agenda". It just makes you look childish.

While I can understand challenging someone making general bad-mouthing of the company statements, when are you and Rockie going to admit you have an instinctive defend your employer at any cost, even the cost of discussion of legitimate items to promote aviation safety. It is a knee jerk insult/conspiracy reaction to any comment about an incident at your company. My current and past companies have both had more than one incident thread on this forum. I guarantee you, that I have not been doing some sort of bulldog kind of defense where you insult seemingly anyone who discusses an incident with legitimate statements.
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Last edited by pelmet on Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:52 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by pelmet »

Old fella wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:01 am
Rockie wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:39 am If I knew the facts Pelmet, I wouldn’t feel obliged to feed them to a pair of internet trolls interested only in painting Air Canada as an unsafe airline. Innuendo is the tool of cowards afraid to come right out and make an accusation. If Air Canada is unsafe why don’t you and . put your heads together and state in clear terms why?
This incident is much to do about nothing outside of possible embarrassment, that is if you can call it such. The appearance I got was there were questionable if any notams on the new construction activity, no barricades no obstructing lighting to indicate a no entry area. The aircraft wasn’t damaged from what I read, just the inconvenience of a tow out and deplaning the passengers after a 12 hr flight. Not the first time such incidents happened and won’t be the last. You can bet that Japanese Airport Authority is reviewing their procedures, Air Canada no doubt as well. The Aviation Herald had a very good written expose as I saw.

Slow AVCanada Newsweek in the hot August summer wx I guess that generated three pages and counting commentary. Anyway, carry on chaps.
:drinkers: :drinkers:
I disagree with your no big deal attitude. Whenever an aircraft accidentally enters a construction area, a closed off area or possibly even a taxiway that they were not cleared onto, there can be significantly elevated risks. Usually it will only lead to embarrasment and delay but the incidents posted below show what has happened to others....

http://www.indianaviationnews.net/decis ... e-culprit/

https://www.google.com/search?q=british ... Y8ACqUVAfM:
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Last edited by pelmet on Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Air Canada Tokyo Incident

Post by Lightchop »

C.W.E. wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:11 am
Innuendo is the tool of cowards
I love the above statement.

Written by someone who hides behind a made up name.

At least I have the self worth to post using my real name .

. ..
Easy to do when you're retired, have nothing to worry about and have already burned all your bridges in Canada.
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