CUPE and now CALDA

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flyinhigh
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CUPE and now CALDA

Post by flyinhigh »

Since the day ALPA certified all we heard and continue to hear from John is how ALPA is imploding WestJet.

Funny how I have not heard, nor read a single thing from John since CUPE has come in, and now with the dispatchers certifying with CALDA and the soon to be engineers certification I wonder is it all these employee groups that are truly out to lunch for thinking WestJet is not so great, or maybe there is actually something super shitty happening here that John is just to swallow to see happening (see what I did there).

As much as I hate to say it, I don't see the brand recovering anytime soon. I guess management shouldn't have pissed off everyone so much.
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Last edited by flyinhigh on Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CUPE and now CALDA

Post by flyinhigh »

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rudder
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Re: CUPE and now CALDA

Post by rudder »

And the dominoes keep falling.....no front line WJ employee trusts WJ senior management anymore and are all looking for enforceable CBA’s to protect their WAWCON and benefits.

As I said in another post, there will be significant change. Company programs that have run for years will be scaled back or closed to the unionized employees. That is not necessarily a bad thing. They will be replaced with negotiated and enforceable income and retirement provisions.

WJ senior management are accountable to the WJ BOD. The WJ BOD has a fiduciary obligation to the WJ shareholders. It has become increasingly obvious that the WJ BOD no longer see employees as owners.
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WeedPro2000
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Re: CUPE and now CALDA

Post by WeedPro2000 »

Monte, whatever.
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hurtin'albertan
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Re: CUPE and now CALDA

Post by hurtin'albertan »

WeedPro2000 wrote: Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:24 pm Monte, whatever.
LOL. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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WeedPro2000
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Re: CUPE and now CALDA

Post by WeedPro2000 »

Funny how I have not heard, nor read a single thing from John since CUPE has come in, and now with the dispatchers certifying with CALDA and the soon to be engineers certification I wonder is it all these employee groups that are truly out to lunch for thinking WestJet is not so great, or maybe there is actually something super shitty happening here that John is just to swallow to see happening (see what I did there).
For starters, I've been having the best summer in years. I've had a fair bit of time with my folks in the Okanagan, made 5 trips to Twin Falls,(100 BASE jumps...well, they're from the bridge so I suppose they qualify), and now I'm going back to work full time on the WingNut airspeed indicator system. I really don't have the interest to put much time in to WJ matters.

I don't know how to categorize people being unhappy with their jobs. Simply put I think that most people have a hard time feeling grateful for what they have, and have a harder time truly imagining how it will get better. They minimize the risks and over-estimate the benefits. Simply put, a lot of people whine and complain. It only took a few hours back at work last week after a summer off to realize that.

Cheers big ears!
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WeedPro2000
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Re: CUPE and now CALDA

Post by WeedPro2000 »

Unions for the win!

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/tim-ho ... -1.4781644

How’s an arbitrated agreement sounding now?
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Diadem
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Re: CUPE and now CALDA

Post by Diadem »

WeedPro2000 wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:22 am Simply put I think that most people have a hard time feeling grateful for what they have, and have a harder time truly imagining how it will get better.
So people are just supposed to accept whatever circumstances they're currently in, and "imagine" that things will somehow get better? Working conditions improve through action, not imagination, and having management unilaterally change the current set of circumstances to the detriment of the pilot group isn't going to make most people feel "grateful for what they have". Why should people settle with just being happy that they have a job, when they can make the job tenable for the rest of their careers without feeling resentment towards the company? Obviously the FAs and dispatchers have issues with their contracts or relationships with management that they feel could be better addressed as a group, and they shouldn't have to just shut up and suck up whatever's making them unhappy.
Having someone shit in your mouth and having to swallow isn't a healthy two-way relationship, and anyone who sits back and feels grateful that they just get to eat something isn't in their right mind. It sounds like you have Stockholm Syndrome.
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WeedPro2000
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Re: CUPE and now CALDA

Post by WeedPro2000 »

Diadem wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:18 am
WeedPro2000 wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:22 am Simply put I think that most people have a hard time feeling grateful for what they have, and have a harder time truly imagining how it will get better.
So people are just supposed to accept whatever circumstances they're currently in, and "imagine" that things will somehow get better? Working conditions improve through action, not imagination, and having management unilaterally change the current set of circumstances to the detriment of the pilot group isn't going to make most people feel "grateful for what they have". Why should people settle with just being happy that they have a job, when they can make the job tenable for the rest of their careers without feeling resentment towards the company? Obviously the FAs and dispatchers have issues with their contracts or relationships with management that they feel could be better addressed as a group, and they shouldn't have to just shut up and suck up whatever's making them unhappy.
Having someone shit in your mouth and having to swallow isn't a healthy two-way relationship, and anyone who sits back and feels grateful that they just get to eat something isn't in their right mind. It sounds like you have Stockholm Syndrome.
Yah that’s what I have, a job where people shit in my mouth. Hahahaha. I can’t speak for the other employee groups and their work conditions, but I can’t wait to cross the picket line.
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av8r374
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Re: CUPE and now CALDA

Post by av8r374 »

Diadem wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:18 am So people are just supposed to accept whatever circumstances they're currently in, and "imagine" that things will somehow get better? Working conditions improve through action, not imagination, and having management unilaterally change the current set of circumstances to the detriment of the pilot group isn't going to make most people feel "grateful for what they have". Why should people settle with just being happy that they have a job, when they can make the job tenable for the rest of their careers without feeling resentment towards the company? Obviously the FAs and dispatchers have issues with their contracts or relationships with management that they feel could be better addressed as a group, and they shouldn't have to just shut up and suck up whatever's making them unhappy.
Having someone shit in your mouth and having to swallow isn't a healthy two-way relationship, and anyone who sits back and feels grateful that they just get to eat something isn't in their right mind. It sounds like you have Stockholm Syndrome.
Yes people will ALWAYS find something to whine an complain about. We have a hard time being satisfied with what we have. Sometimes, in our haste/greed we are reckless in that pursuit for satisfaction. Yes we will end up getting what we wanted, but we may end up with something worse off as a whole.

I'm making pasta and having difficulty opening this jar of freakin amazing sauce that I need to make my pasta great. I have an open jar of an okay sauce in the fridge that's gone a bit stale. I can work slow and hard to get to the amazing sauce by trying to work that lid off. Or I can take to it with force, risk breaking the jar and end up with shards in it. I could have used the other sauce in the mean time while I worked to find a way to get that lid off for the next time. Question is, how bad is the easily accessible sauce you have and how bad do you need the better sauce? Is it worth the risk of doing permanent damage to it?
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Diadem
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Re: CUPE and now CALDA

Post by Diadem »

av8r374 wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:23 pm Yes people will ALWAYS find something to whine an complain about. We have a hard time being satisfied with what we have. Sometimes, in our haste/greed we are reckless in that pursuit for satisfaction. Yes we will end up getting what we wanted, but we may end up with something worse off as a whole.

I'm making pasta and having difficulty opening this jar of freakin amazing sauce that I need to make my pasta great. I have an open jar of an okay sauce in the fridge that's gone a bit stale. I can work slow and hard to get to the amazing sauce by trying to work that lid off. Or I can take to it with force, risk breaking the jar and end up with shards in it. I could have used the other sauce in the mean time while I worked to find a way to get that lid off for the next time. Question is, how bad is the easily accessible sauce you have and how bad do you need the better sauce? Is it worth the risk of doing permanent damage to it?
Okay, let's say that management took the amazing sauce away. It wasn't because of anything that you did, it's just too expensive, and you're expected to make sacrifices for the good of the company. So now you're left with only the stale sauce while your boss is making a huge batch of pasta using the amazing sauce, and you can't figure out what you did to deserve that, especially since the company makes public announcements every quarter showing off how much of the amazing sauce they have...So you start talking with your friends who work at the same company, and they all agree that they've worked harder than they should have to the benefit of the company, without gaining anything from it. Hell, some of them haven't even gotten the amazing sauce yet; they've been waiting for close to a decade for their chance to get it, and now the company won't dole it out. Meanwhile, a few individualists are gorging themselves on sauce, to the detriment of everyone else, and they don't want to share. If you and all your friends present a united front to management, you can all get a little bit of the amazing sauce, everyone will feel more accomplished, and everyone will be more motivated to contribute to the success of the company. More than anything, you just don't want to feel like management is actively opposing you.
The people who hate unions vociferously, and usually believe they can negotiate a better deal for themselves if they don't have to deal with pesky payscales, so often do so on the backs of their coworkers. Sometimes it's getting a higher wage, and therefore leaving less of the budget to be allocated to the less-experienced pilots, sometimes it's taking tons of overtime so that there's no need to upgrade someone, but every time I've seen it happen that one person has caused grief for the larger employee group. As such, I can't take it seriously when some self-centred skygod laments that (s)he could make more if there weren't a scale in the way; you, personally, can make more, but everyone else suffers, so of course everyone else will be more motivated to unionize. The people who negotiate more money also tend to be the ones who suck up, kiss ass, and backstab their way to success by doing things like reporting that the other pilot broke the sterile cockpit rule at 9999 feet to make themselves look better. They also tend to be the ones who jump ship at the prospect of a one cent per hour raise.
I simply can't understand the animosity that's being directed at employees who want to work together to improve their workplace. The union MECs that do the negotiating are made up of people who currently work for these companies, and they're keenly aware of the faults in their workplaces; they don't suddenly turn into bloated fatcats looking to line their own pockets the second they sign their union cards.
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Eric Janson
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Re: CUPE and now CALDA

Post by Eric Janson »

rudder wrote: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:04 am And the dominoes keep falling.....no front line WJ employee trusts WJ senior management anymore and are all looking for enforceable CBA’s to protect their WAWCON and benefits.

As I said in another post, there will be significant change. Company programs that have run for years will be scaled back or closed to the unionized employees. That is not necessarily a bad thing. They will be replaced with negotiated and enforceable income and retirement provisions.

WJ senior management are accountable to the WJ BOD. The WJ BOD has a fiduciary obligation to the WJ shareholders. It has become increasingly obvious that the WJ BOD no longer see employees as owners.
A quick question from an outsider.

Since the WJ employees own a % of WJ Stock could they form a Shareholders Association and get a seat on the WJ BOD?

This would seem to be the smart thing to do.
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Re: CUPE and now CALDA

Post by JayVee »

Well said, Diadem!
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aerobod
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Re: CUPE and now CALDA

Post by aerobod »

Eric Janson wrote: Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:28 am
rudder wrote: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:04 am And the dominoes keep falling.....no front line WJ employee trusts WJ senior management anymore and are all looking for enforceable CBA’s to protect their WAWCON and benefits.

As I said in another post, there will be significant change. Company programs that have run for years will be scaled back or closed to the unionized employees. That is not necessarily a bad thing. They will be replaced with negotiated and enforceable income and retirement provisions.

WJ senior management are accountable to the WJ BOD. The WJ BOD has a fiduciary obligation to the WJ shareholders. It has become increasingly obvious that the WJ BOD no longer see employees as owners.
A quick question from an outsider.

Since the WJ employees own a % of WJ Stock could they form a Shareholders Association and get a seat on the WJ BOD?

This would seem to be the smart thing to do.
The employee association (that represents non-union, non-management employees) has a member on the Board and always has done, currently this is Brad Armitage. From a shareholder perspective, the largest institutional shareholder has 10% of the stock and doesn't have a seat on the board, they hold more than all the non management employees put together.
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hurtin'albertan
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Re: CUPE and now CALDA

Post by hurtin'albertan »

WeedPro2000 wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:11 am Unions for the win!

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/tim-ho ... -1.4781644

How’s an arbitrated agreement sounding now?
Haha. Ok John. Maybe you equate the skill level and professionalism required by airline pilots to the those required by a 15 year old pouring shitty coffee, but the rest of the world doesn't. You DO wear a helmet when you jump off random things right? If not, you should start. I hear the brain can sometimes heal itself, or at least you can minimize the damage going forward... :lol: :lol:
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Re: CUPE and now CALDA

Post by WeedPro2000 »

hurtin'albertan wrote: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:55 am
WeedPro2000 wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:11 am Unions for the win!

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/tim-ho ... -1.4781644

How’s an arbitrated agreement sounding now?
Haha. Ok John. Maybe you equate your skill level and professionalism to the levels required by a 15 year old pouring shitty coffee, but the rest of the world doesn't. You DO wear a helmet when you jump off random things right? If not, you should start. I hear the brain can sometimes heal itself, or at least you can minimize the damage going forward... :lol: :lol:
Ummm, this may come as a surprise to you, but the point of the article was that when you let an arbitrator make decisions, sometimes you don't get what you were expecting. (Kind of liek the guys who voted in favour of ALPA, there is growing buyer's remorse.)

While I have you there, have you heard how the ALPA seniority list looks? I'm hearing that the union has agreed that it will be strictly by date of hire, with no allowance for time served at another airline.
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hurtin'albertan
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Re: CUPE and now CALDA

Post by hurtin'albertan »

WeedPro2000 wrote: Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:12 pm
hurtin'albertan wrote: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:55 am
WeedPro2000 wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:11 am Unions for the win!

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/tim-ho ... -1.4781644

How’s an arbitrated agreement sounding now?
Haha. Ok John. Maybe you equate your skill level and professionalism to the levels required by a 15 year old pouring shitty coffee, but the rest of the world doesn't. You DO wear a helmet when you jump off random things right? If not, you should start. I hear the brain can sometimes heal itself, or at least you can minimize the damage going forward... :lol: :lol:
Ummm, this may come as a surprise to you, but the point of the article was that when you let an arbitrator make decisions, sometimes you don't get what you were expecting. (Kind of liek the guys who voted in favour of ALPA, there is growing buyer's remorse.)

While I have you there, have you heard how the ALPA seniority list looks? I'm hearing that the union has agreed that it will be strictly by date of hire, with no allowance for time served at another airline.
Haha. Here fishy, fishy... How about you take that tinfoil lining out and tighten the straps a little and wait for the final product come September, like all the rational people.

Happy jumping!
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WeedPro2000
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Re: CUPE and now CALDA

Post by WeedPro2000 »

No bites, huh? You're too clever for me lol. I just thought since the MEC released the fact that reserve holders will have 18 days worked, I thought they might let everyone know how the seniority list is constructed? For that matter, there should be a standing merger committee according to the constitution of ALPA. They might have that DOH list as they are mandated to have.

Anyhoo, thanks for the safe jump wishes. I do try, though I'm what you would call a marginally proficient skydiver. The risk is part of the game.

Toodles!
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av8r374
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Re: CUPE and now CALDA

Post by av8r374 »

Diadem wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:43 pm
av8r374 wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:23 pm Yes people will ALWAYS find something to whine an complain about. We have a hard time being satisfied with what we have. Sometimes, in our haste/greed we are reckless in that pursuit for satisfaction. Yes we will end up getting what we wanted, but we may end up with something worse off as a whole.

I'm making pasta and having difficulty opening this jar of freakin amazing sauce that I need to make my pasta great. I have an open jar of an okay sauce in the fridge that's gone a bit stale. I can work slow and hard to get to the amazing sauce by trying to work that lid off. Or I can take to it with force, risk breaking the jar and end up with shards in it. I could have used the other sauce in the mean time while I worked to find a way to get that lid off for the next time. Question is, how bad is the easily accessible sauce you have and how bad do you need the better sauce? Is it worth the risk of doing permanent damage to it?
Okay, let's say that management took the amazing sauce away. It wasn't because of anything that you did, it's just too expensive, and you're expected to make sacrifices for the good of the company. So now you're left with only the stale sauce while your boss is making a huge batch of pasta using the amazing sauce, and you can't figure out what you did to deserve that, especially since the company makes public announcements every quarter showing off how much of the amazing sauce they have...So you start talking with your friends who work at the same company, and they all agree that they've worked harder than they should have to the benefit of the company, without gaining anything from it. Hell, some of them haven't even gotten the amazing sauce yet; they've been waiting for close to a decade for their chance to get it, and now the company won't dole it out. Meanwhile, a few individualists are gorging themselves on sauce, to the detriment of everyone else, and they don't want to share. If you and all your friends present a united front to management, you can all get a little bit of the amazing sauce, everyone will feel more accomplished, and everyone will be more motivated to contribute to the success of the company. More than anything, you just don't want to feel like management is actively opposing you.
The people who hate unions vociferously, and usually believe they can negotiate a better deal for themselves if they don't have to deal with pesky payscales, so often do so on the backs of their coworkers. Sometimes it's getting a higher wage, and therefore leaving less of the budget to be allocated to the less-experienced pilots, sometimes it's taking tons of overtime so that there's no need to upgrade someone, but every time I've seen it happen that one person has caused grief for the larger employee group. As such, I can't take it seriously when some self-centred skygod laments that (s)he could make more if there weren't a scale in the way; you, personally, can make more, but everyone else suffers, so of course everyone else will be more motivated to unionize. The people who negotiate more money also tend to be the ones who suck up, kiss ass, and backstab their way to success by doing things like reporting that the other pilot broke the sterile cockpit rule at 9999 feet to make themselves look better. They also tend to be the ones who jump ship at the prospect of a one cent per hour raise.
I simply can't understand the animosity that's being directed at employees who want to work together to improve their workplace. The union MECs that do the negotiating are made up of people who currently work for these companies, and they're keenly aware of the faults in their workplaces; they don't suddenly turn into bloated fatcats looking to line their own pockets the second they sign their union cards.
I definitely support the unionization of pilots and dispatchers but we have to be tactful and methodical in our pursuit for better. We do not want to destroy the very thing we are trying to improve. After all, the whole point of the various drives is to preserve the future of our industry.

The unfortunate coincidence of this pursuit with a tough financial environment leaves the company very exposed to the elements. Too much pressure in one or another area can have disastrous consequences in the long run,
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Diadem
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Re: CUPE and now CALDA

Post by Diadem »

av8r374 wrote: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:31 pm I definitely support the unionization of pilots and dispatchers but we have to be tactful and methodical in our pursuit for better. We do not want to destroy the very thing we are trying to improve. After all, the whole point of the various drives is to preserve the future of our industry.
Isn't that the point of negotiations? How does one begin to improve one's situation with the attitude of "Well, I'd better not rock the boat or the company might suffer! I'll just sit back and wait for something to happen."
av8r374 wrote: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:31 pm The unfortunate coincidence of this pursuit with a tough financial environment leaves the company very exposed to the elements. Too much pressure in one or another area can have disastrous consequences in the long run,
In the last quarter, revenues were up 2.8% year-over-year, and loads were up 1.1% year-over-year. Management tried to blame the pilots for the loss, but it's pretty hard to pin it on the threat of labour action when more passengers ended up flying. The only reason there's a tough financial environment is because of mismanagement.
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