Good Hands n’ Feet vs. Operational Experience

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog

mixturerich
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:04 pm

Good Hands n’ Feet vs. Operational Experience

Post by mixturerich »

What’s going to save your butt? 900hr flight instructor with super hands and feet? Or 900 Navajo captain who isn’t very coordinated, but experienced with storms, icing, wind shear, and crosswinds?
---------- ADS -----------
 
ant_321
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 589
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:43 pm

Re: Good Hands n’ Feet vs. Operational Experience

Post by ant_321 »

Depends on the situation. For example, Dead sticking onto a abandoned logging road, hands and feet. Getting home after getting caught in unexpected crapy wx with challenging terrain, I'd take the experience. That being said, with 900 hrs in a ho you won't really have much experience. And with 900 hrs instructing in vfr with strict wx and wind limits you won't have good hands and feet.
---------- ADS -----------
 
C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Good Hands n’ Feet vs. Operational Experience

Post by C.W.E. »

Ideally one should start out with good hands and feet and a solid understanding of the physics and rules of flying...then with that as a starting point build experience with time.

That will give you the best opportunity to develop good decision making skills to know when to say no. :mrgreen:
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
JetSetter87
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:52 pm

Re: Good Hands n’ Feet vs. Operational Experience

Post by JetSetter87 »

Instructors don't do much stick flying. The student does. Ho captain any day...
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Blueontop
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:01 pm

Re: Good Hands n’ Feet vs. Operational Experience

Post by Blueontop »

JetSetter87 wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:33 pm Instructors don't do much stick flying. The student does. Ho captain any day...
Perhaps... but when they do demonstrate their skill it has to be a 4 or at least damn near it everytime.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
CL-Skadoo!
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 642
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 6:41 pm
Location: Intensity in Ten Cities.

Re: Good Hands n’ Feet vs. Operational Experience

Post by CL-Skadoo! »

Shouldn't everyone have good hands and feet? What the hell?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
5x5
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:30 pm

Re: Good Hands n’ Feet vs. Operational Experience

Post by 5x5 »

CL-Skadoo! wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:16 pm Shouldn't everyone have good hands and feet? What the hell?
Absolutely! And everyone should always honour commitments, respect others, never lie, and never cheat.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Being stupid around airplanes is a capital offence and nature is a hanging judge!

“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
Mark Twain
User avatar
CL-Skadoo!
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 642
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 6:41 pm
Location: Intensity in Ten Cities.

Re: Good Hands n’ Feet vs. Operational Experience

Post by CL-Skadoo! »

We're talking about a surgeon that can't operate a scalpel, a triathlete that can't swim or a writer without any command of their native tongue. Good hands and feet or GTFO of this industry.
---------- ADS -----------
 
goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1858
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Good Hands n’ Feet vs. Operational Experience

Post by goingnowherefast »

Wind shear and crosswinds takes decent hands and feet to deal with.

The question is pretty vague, what are we trying to save my butt from? For example, if we're in a 152 and the engine just blew up, I'm hoping the instructor is there to judge the glide into that small field ahead. Unforecast bad icing, approach to mins, and a nasty crosswind, well that's still pretty scary for a 900 hour "experienced" Navajo captain.
---------- ADS -----------
 
sunk
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:51 pm

Re: Good Hands n’ Feet vs. Operational Experience

Post by sunk »

The last two commercial guys I trained had the worst hand/feet coordination that I’ve ever seen. Took them 40 hrs plus to get them ready for a vfr ppc. Worst part was they thought they they were awesome pilots. They couldn’t understand why I was not recommending them for the ride.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3314
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: Good Hands n’ Feet vs. Operational Experience

Post by PilotDAR »

Worst part was they thought they they were awesome pilots. They couldn’t understand why I was not recommending them for the ride.
Yup.

I have trained (attempted to train) a few pilots who thought they were ready for the next type - nope, they weren't ready for what they'd been flying. Most notably, I have seen pilots who were unable to fly a visual approach from a mile back with the aircraft never straying laterally beyond the apparent width of the runway, and once over the runway remaining straight, and within a few feet of the centerline. Sure, the enroute flying skills one can develop in a "less hands and feet" flying role are good for going onward toward flying the big iron, but if you can't visualize the runway, and fly the plane along a straight and aligned approach, you will be perpetually challenged to end your flights with grace!
---------- ADS -----------
 
B208
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 700
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:00 pm

Re: Good Hands n’ Feet vs. Operational Experience

Post by B208 »

A good pilot needs a minimum level in both areas. I'll illustrate this with a few extreme examples; A pilot that can do airshow level formation aerobatics but routinely decides to fly under a heavy rain shaft is eventually going to meet a bad ending. Conversely, a heavy iron driver who has shot approaches into mountain fields and crossed the equator, but who can't judge a visual glide path or do effective x-wind control, is eventually going to make the CADORs.
Beyond the minimum skills it all comes down to the situation (as others have pointed out).

PilotDAR, Sunk;

I've noticed the same thing. My explanation for the problem is that all of the experience was diluted out of the instructor cadre some time ago. Many of the current batch of instructors, through no fault of their own, have not been properly trained. As a result many don't know what good flying looks like, (they have attained the same level of skill as the people that trained them, therefore they think that they are pretty good.) The process is at work within the current student body. This is not a swipe at today's students or instructors, the vast majority of which pick up on how to improve their skills once they've been shown. Rather, this is a lamentation of today's environment where there are very few people in the training system with the skills/knowledge to pass on to the new generation.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8082
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Good Hands n’ Feet vs. Operational Experience

Post by Rockie »

CL-Skadoo! wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:38 pm We're talking about a surgeon that can't operate a scalpel, a triathlete that can't swim or a writer without any command of their native tongue. Good hands and feet or GTFO of this industry.
Define “good” in a way that clearly tells an examiner thumbs up or thumbs down. You give it a shot B208 since you’re all about clarity. No extremes either, clearly describe that fuzzy borderline between “good” and whatever grade lies just below.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
valleyboy
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 661
Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 4:05 am
Contact:

Re: Good Hands n’ Feet vs. Operational Experience

Post by valleyboy »

:smt021 ru f'in kidding me -- neither --
---------- ADS -----------
 
B208
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 700
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:00 pm

Re: Good Hands n’ Feet vs. Operational Experience

Post by B208 »

Rockie wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:18 am
CL-Skadoo! wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:38 pm We're talking about a surgeon that can't operate a scalpel, a triathlete that can't swim or a writer without any command of their native tongue. Good hands and feet or GTFO of this industry.
Define “good” in a way that clearly tells an examiner thumbs up or thumbs down. You give it a shot B208 since you’re all about clarity. No extremes either, clearly describe that fuzzy borderline between “good” and whatever grade lies just below.
I'd structure it like the flight test guides, but with greater detail. For example, "Candidate spent no more than x number of seconds more than y number of degrees off of centreline during final approach." It would take a fair bit of work to describe 'good' in sufficient detail, but it is doable.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8082
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Good Hands n’ Feet vs. Operational Experience

Post by Rockie »

B208 wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:53 am "Candidate spent no more than x number of seconds more than y number of degrees off of centreline during final approach."
There are already IFR tolerances and other parameters stipulated. I'm talking about what defines "good", who makes that determination, and what allowances are made for other than ideal conditions.

How do you B208 objectify what is by nature a subjective assessment?

Be accurate.
---------- ADS -----------
 
FL007
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:35 pm

Re: Good Hands n’ Feet vs. Operational Experience

Post by FL007 »

mixturerich wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:25 pm What’s going to save your butt? 900hr flight instructor with super hands and feet? Or 900 Navajo captain who isn’t very coordinated, but experienced with storms, icing, wind shear, and crosswinds?
900hr captain has way better hands and feet than an instructor limited to 15kt crosswinds and 5000ft ceilings.

Imagine betting on someone to fly you somewhere who only read about icing and flying in cloud in a book, never flew imc ever, yet has a license to.

I wouldn't bet on that person at all and I certainly don't want to be in a plane with that person if they were single ifr for the first time.
---------- ADS -----------
 
B208
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 700
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:00 pm

Re: Good Hands n’ Feet vs. Operational Experience

Post by B208 »

Rockie wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:58 am
B208 wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:53 am "Candidate spent no more than x number of seconds more than y number of degrees off of centreline during final approach."
There are already IFR tolerances and other parameters stipulated. I'm talking about what defines "good", who makes that determination, and what allowances are made for other than ideal conditions.
It would appear that I've gotten under your skin.

As to your comments; Yes, there are already tolerances published, but they are not as detailed as they could be. Detailed standards and rubrics are how one grades how 'good' someone is.
Rockie wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:58 am How do you B208 objectify what is by nature a subjective assessment?
As was stated above; use detailed standards and rubrics. If you want further details head over to your local Faculty of Education and ask to audit a course on curriculum development. The course is only about 30 hours and gives one a solid grounding in how to do such things.

Cheers.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8082
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: Good Hands n’ Feet vs. Operational Experience

Post by Rockie »

Pie in the sky B208. You say it can be done so explain in detail, don't refer me to someplace to do it for you. Pick a topic, say severe windshear recovery with established levels of turbulence and vertical shears, and explain in just that one circumstance in objective detail what makes one "good".

Assessing pilots is extremely subjective and will always remain so regardless of efforts to make it more objective. You should know that with your vast experience grading pilots. You do have vast experience grading pilots don't you?
---------- ADS -----------
 
cncpc
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1445
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am

Re: Good Hands n’ Feet vs. Operational Experience

Post by cncpc »

Ultimately, it all resolves to what's in your head.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”