China_CAAC's Merged Threads

[cloak]

Recently Jetlines had to change aircraft type because it couldn't secure enough NGs. Securing and retaining human resources is even more important. With the looming pilot shortage, top among them would be experienced pilots. As in most cases the real enemy is the breakdown of relationships and that's where the attention should go, not attacking people, and with the impending joint venture and expansion at hand, retaining experienced pilots is most important for WestJet. That would be a real victory!

Long term, won't be surprizing at all to see airlines give credit for previous 705 airline experience, and while seniority is based on date of hire, pay and vacation should be based on experience. In case of Air Canada for instance, even if new pilots start as FOs, they should start at the appropriate level and the pay levels could even be adjusted a bit to reflect experience, but one should not have to keep starting at the bottom. This will definitely attract more talent.

[daedalusx]

Recently Jetlines had to change aircraft type because it couldn't secure enough NGs. Securing and retaining human resources is even more important. With the looming pilot shortage, top among them would be experienced pilots. As in most cases the real enemy is the breakdown of relationships and that's where the attention should go, not attacking people, and with the impending joint venture and expansion at hand, retaining experienced pilots is most important for WestJet. That would be a real victory!

Long term, won't be surprizing at all to see airlines give credit for previous 705 airline experience, and while seniority is based on date of hire, pay and vacation should be based on experience. In case of Air Canada for instance, even if new pilots start as FOs, they should start at the appropriate level and the pay levels could even be adjusted a bit to reflect experience, but one should not have to keep starting at the bottom. This will definitely attract more talent.

That's a pipe dream.
Air Canada has no problem filling ground schools with 'talent'. They can still afford to hand pick their candidates and they will never ever pay an experienced high quality talented pilot year 1 FO at 777 CA wages when the Seneca kid on the Jazz PML program will still pass his ride and line check at the bottom of the barrel wage.
Is the 777 expat capt a much better, safer pilot than the 1500hr wonder Seneca grad ? Absolutely. But as long as all you need to be right seat on a 705 AC is 250hr and a written iatra you will never ever have a problem filling a Jazz/Encore/AC GS. It's a fairly easy to understand supply/demand curve - You'd think the negotiations committee union geniuses would work on fixing that rather than lobby for more PICUS which only serves as a way to get quicker and cheaper 705 captains. Get rid of PICUS and prohibit the cadets from buying their ATPLs by running 152s in circles is the day that Jazz/Sunwing/etc will have a problem finding qualified Capt - is the day that pay will get hire to attract experienced pilots ... Again... Very very basic stuff here.

Seems like no one remembers the glorious days of 18000$FO/36000$CA a yr Embraer/RJ pilots at the American regionals in the late 2000s until Congress got involved after Colgan...

[DrSpaceman]

I agree getting rid of picus would go a long way. Also would be great to have a 1500h rule for 705. Did wonders south of the border for working conditions!

[cloak]

That's a pipe dream.
Air Canada has no problem filling ground schools with 'talent'. They can still afford to hand pick their candidates and they will never ever pay an experienced high quality talented pilot year 1 FO at 777 CA wages when the Seneca kid on the Jazz PML program will still pass his ride and line check at the bottom of the barrel wage.
Is the 777 expat capt a much better, safer pilot than the 1500hr wonder Seneca grad ? Absolutely. But as long as all you need to be right seat on a 705 AC is 250hr and a written iatra you will never ever have a problem filling a Jazz/Encore/AC GS. It's a fairly easy to understand supply/demand curve - You'd think the negotiations committee union geniuses would work on fixing that rather than lobby for more PICUS which only serves as a way to get quicker and cheaper 705 captains. Get rid of PICUS and prohibit the cadets from buying their ATPLs by running 152s in circles is the day that Jazz/Sunwing/etc will have a problem finding qualified Capt - is the day that pay will get hire to attract experienced pilots ... Again... Very very basic stuff here.

Seems like no one remembers the glorious days of 18000$FO/36000$CA a yr Embraer/RJ pilots at the American regionals in the late 2000s until Congress got involved after Colgan...

That was my point too that those conditions in the U.S changed by market forces. ACPA for instance vaunted support for ALPA's fight with WestJet, meanwhile agreed to these low wages at Air Canada for 10 years! If it wants to improve the working conditions of pilots in Canada it needs to look no farther than its own home! This is why unions are not as effective as the market forces that now for instance U.S major carriers starting FO salary is in the low 80s and reaches a 100 very quickly, and the airlines are still making record money. That is also where airlines are beginning to give credit for previous airline experience and hire pilots at their experience level, not at year one. That was driven by market forces not by unions, and the same will happen in Canada by market forces and Air Canada too will have to pay the appropriate wages.

[x-wind]

Is changing the regulations market forces?

It was the minimum requirements being raise first that started the wage increases in the US. The unions lobby for those increases and to maintain them. Who else would have advocted for those changes cloak? How many non union shops are there at those places that pay well in the states?

[mbav8r]

Although this is not the outcome wished upon Tbaylx and his ilk, two things jump out as justice served.
The pay being locked in, means he won’t benefit from any gains made in the forthcoming agreement, stuck at the abysmal pay he signed on for is deserved, the other, he won’t be getting 37 PIC to take to a Chinese or wherever contract.
I have to admit, I thought they were going to get ahead because my faith in arbitrators has been soured over the years, they always seem to side with the corporations, perhaps they did.
Also, it seems to have shut him up

[munzil]

, he won’t be getting 37 PIC to take to a Chinese or wherever

Maybe he didn't want to go to Chinese. Maybe he wanted to go to Japanese or South Korean.. maybe even a first world country that isnt hobbled by unions and has fair wages and benefits like new zealandese or Australian?

[cloak]

Although this is not the outcome wished upon Tbaylx and his ilk...

Yet for someone who is so magnanimous, you still had to take a shot, well done!
If one's spouse has an affair, it's too tempting to blame the other individual, yet the real reason is the break-up of the relationship with one's spouse.
In these threads the attacks usually come from Encore and Jazz guys which is quite ironic! But if you are a WestJet pilot, focus on the relationship!

[mbav8r]

, he won’t be getting 37 PIC to take to a Chinese or wherever

Maybe he didn't want to go to Chinese. Maybe he wanted to go to Japanese or South Korean.. maybe even a first world country that isnt hobbled by unions and has fair wages and benefits like new zealandese or Australian?

[mbav8r]

Although this is not the outcome wished upon Tbaylx and his ilk...

Yet for someone who is so magnanimous, you still had to take a shot, well done!
If one's spouse has an affair, it's too tempting to blame the other individual, yet the real reason is the break-up of the relationship with one's spouse.
In these threads the attacks usually come from Encore and Jazz guys which is quite ironic! But if you are a WestJet pilot, focus on the relationship!

Since when have I ever presented myself as magnanimous?
Ever heard it takes two to tango, Tbaylx was well aware the relationship was in trouble and took advantage of the situation, both parties are guilty. Still hoping the company gets its due for violating an agreement.
FYI, I am a Jazz guy and I’m not sure what you’re referring too, ironic?

[.80@410]

[/quote]

Maybe he didn't want to go to Chinese. Maybe he wanted to go to Japanese or South Korean.. maybe even a first world country that isnt hobbled by unions and has fair wages and benefits like new zealandese or Australian?
[/quote]

They can have him. Too bad he didn’t go there first .

“ hobbled by unions “
Please...

WJ has gotten away for so long doing whatever they choose... with no recourse for the pilots while they continually eroded our WAWCONs and when they couldn’t do that anymore they tried to circumvent the whole process.
ALPA clotheslined them , BAM ( ya that’s right imagine old school WWE wrestling analogy right there )
Crowd going wild .. you get the picture.
December will be the 3 count

Finally a level playing field.
Couldn’t be happier !!

[cloak]

...FYI, I am a Jazz guy and I’m not sure what you’re referring too, ironic?

I rest my case! How can you be so mad at this group of people and ok with JAZZ for lowering the bar on B757 pay or worse yet allowing a B scale?
Encore is the same, lowering the pay substantially on Q400, Air Canada for eating its young....Transat's B scale, on and on
Keep your eyes on the ball, not the players! I'm sure you're a nice enough person, but your anger is misplaced. And evidently you are not alone!

[Dizzy D]

[quote=mbav8r post_id=<a href="tel:1054368">1054368</a> time=<a href="tel:1538857676">1538857676</a> user_id=8159]
...FYI, I am a Jazz guy and I’m not sure what you’re referring too, ironic?

I rest my case! How can you be so mad at this group of people and ok with JAZZ for lowering the bar on B757 pay or worse yet allowing a B scale?
Encore is the same, lowering the pay substantially on Q400, Air Canada for eating its young....Transat's B scale, on and on
Keep your eyes on the ball, not the players! I'm sure you're a nice enough person, but your anger is misplaced. And evidently you are not alone!
[/quote]

So you are saying it’s ironic for Encore pilots to have an opinion on a thread like this? Are you implying that Encore pilots lowered the bar? Last I checked we had nothing to do with our current pay standards. There are many of us here fighting to get better WAWCON. I believe the majority of Encore pilots want to make it better here, not only for themselves, but for the pilots to come on the property after them and for the industry as a whole.

[tbaylx]

Although this is not the outcome wished upon Tbaylx and his ilk, two things jump out as justice served.
The pay being locked in, means he won’t benefit from any gains made in the forthcoming agreement, stuck at the abysmal pay he signed on for is deserved, the other, he won’t be getting 37 PIC to take to a Chinese or wherever contract.
I have to admit, I thought they were going to get ahead because my faith in arbitrators has been soured over the years, they always seem to side with the corporations, perhaps they did.
Also, it seems to have shut him up

I don’t post unless I’ve got something to contribute, that and the expansion and training has kept me busy. In this case I’ll post to correct misinformation, and please, this is pretty much exactly the outcome wished by quite a few, including yourself.

First, it’s pay protection, not a freeze, despite what some may think. Which means the new contract rates and annual steps.
Second most of the ots guys had more than enough experience to go on overseas contracts when they joined (that’s why they were hired in the first place), none of us took the job as a stepping stone to Asia.

While not the outcome we were looking for, we are now on the combined WestJet/Swoop pilot seniority list, getting paid whatever Swoop captain wages are negotiated while we wait for our seniority to hold our positions again. Ask any recent WestJet FOs if they’d have preferred to have been hired on at captain wages while they wait for their left seat. With the wide body growth at mainline, Swoop wages likely arbitrated below mainline rates it won’t be long before there is enough movement that we can bid back for our positions using our new seniority number. If one chooses not to wait then there are plenty of opportunities within Canada and worldwide at the moment.

It ain’t all bad.

[cloak]

So you are saying it’s ironic for Encore pilots to have an opinion on a thread like this? Are you implying that Encore pilots lowered the bar? Last I checked we had nothing to do with our current pay standards. There are many of us here fighting to get better WAWCON. I believe the majority of Encore pilots want to make it better here, not only for themselves, but for the pilots to come on the property after them and for the industry as a whole.

So you're saying that you didn't decide the WOWCON at Encore, but saw an ad and opportunity that although was below airlines like JAZZ and Porter that operate similar aircraft and on similar routes, it was right for you and you took it, and in the meantime you are trying to improve the situation? Don't you think the same can be said about this situation? Except that the pay at Swoop although lower than WestJet mainline, was comparable with Sunwing, Transat, etc. It's all a matter of perspective and how one looks at the situation from all angles not one's own.

Someone asked is the government changing regulations considered market forces? The answer imo is that all these things are a portion and play a part in determining market forces.

Take housing market for example. The housing market was overheated in many cities particularly Vancouver and Toronto. There were lots of foreign buyers that greatly influenced the market. The government brought in legislation to cool off the market. And that it did. Now we can ask is changing the regulations market forces? Well it plays a part in it. All things do. An individual could have said the market is overheated and I will not be a party to it and will not buy in this market. Would that be market forces? This is the example of this situation and as though other people were saying do not buy in this market to cool it off. Now if everyone was able to follow it at the same time it may influence the market, but the truth is that everyone is in a different situation and makes decisions based on their circumstances and what is right for them. One who already has a place and can wait to buy cheap may like that idea, but another may not be able to do that. The same analogy can be used here that all things play a role in "market forces" including our individual actions, government regulations, the expansion and number of airlines, people travelling, etc. but clearly some don't have as big an impact.

[Benwa]

...
First, it’s pay protection, not a freeze, despite what some may think. Which means the new contract rates and annual steps.
...

Hopefully you're right and we'll get years of service at Swoop. Year 1 Captain should go down to 58$/hr as anyone holding Captain position through seniority will never see year 1 Captain pay rates. That way the company will save money on all OTS swoopsters. Don't you wish it was a pay freeze now?

[munzil]

...
First, it’s pay protection, not a freeze, despite what some may think. Which means the new contract rates and annual steps.
...

Hopefully you're right and we'll get years of service at Swoop. Year 1 Captain should go down to 58$/hr as anyone holding Captain position through seniority will never see year 1 Captain pay rates. That way the company will save money on all OTS swoopsters. Don't you wish it was a pay freeze now?

Man some of you guys are so vindictive. Let it go. Be a better person.

[Fanblade]

With the wide body growth at mainline, Swoop wages likely arbitrated below mainline rates it won’t be long before there is enough movement that we can bid back for our positions using our new seniority number.

Arbitrators in general don't hand out pay cuts. They also don't hand out much in the way of gains. They are keenly aware that to do so would embolden one of the two sides to not negotiate seriously the next time around.

Can you define: "it won't be long"?

[lostaviator]

Dreamliner Delivery

2019 3
2020 3
2021 4

These planes are not going to bring the extreme movement being envisioned by some.

[Tacoma]

Pay protection is a Pay Freeze. You are protected from not having to start at year 1 Swoop FO rate of $55ish per hour. That is it. For example if the current WJ pay scales were to stay the same as they are today, in 5 years you’d be eligible for your first pay increase above your current $103hr as 6th year WJ FO sits at $106.

Once WAWCON are established at SWOOP, the captain positions will go much more senior then they went on the bypass bid. Current WJ captains will bid for YEG, YHM and (potentiallyYXX) captain positions if and when it is a good deal.

For the next few months as WJ pilots fly wetlease for Swoop, passengers will receive the exact same level of service from the pilots upfront as they would from swoop pilots. That will be a pretty good case point for the arbitrator to prove why WAWCON should be the same at both. Same job. Same plane. Same route. Same company.

We will find out in a few months when the management circular is released but I’d guess our new COO will receive 3-3.5 million dollars compensation for 2018(started last week). Our CFO received 2.5 million and EVP HR 2.1 million for 3 months work in 2015. It’ll be interesting how much less SG took then BC as Prez of swoop if WJ group thinks swoopsters all around should be payed less. I bet you it’s more!

[daedalusx]

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

It was a gamble. Very few applied to Swoop as OTS wether it was the pay, ALPA/ACPA blacklist nonsense or the gut feeling not wanting to step on our brothers and sisters while they were trying to improve their work conditions. At the end of the day, for a lot of us, the risk vs rewards just wasn't worth it. And I would suppose for a lot of the Swoop guys that applied OTS, it was a risk that was worth it and it could have very well went the opposite side and those guys would have jump a 5+ yrs queue with no consequences besides a few dirty looks and mean words on a anonymous forum ...

I can't really feel bad about any of those Swoop guys just like I can't feel bad about the dude who tanks his paycheck in a slot machine. Anyhow, all those guys got a current 737NG PPC so I'm sure no one will be starving comes Christmas.

[tbaylx]

Pay protection is a Pay Freeze. You are protected from not having to start at year 1 Swoop FO rate of $55ish per hour. That is it. For example if the current WJ pay scales were to stay the same as they are today, in 5 years you’d be eligible for your first pay increase above your current $103hr as 6th year WJ FO sits at $106.

Once WAWCON are established at SWOOP, the captain positions will go much more senior then they went on the bypass bid. Current WJ captains will bid for YEG, YHM and (potentiallyYXX) captain positions if and when it is a good deal.

For the next few months as WJ pilots fly wetlease for Swoop, passengers will receive the exact same level of service from the pilots upfront as they would from swoop pilots. That will be a pretty good case point for the arbitrator to prove why WAWCON should be the same at both. Same job. Same plane. Same route. Same company.

We will find out in a few months when the management circular is released but I’d guess our new COO will receive 3-3.5 million dollars compensation for 2018(started last week). Our CFO received 2.5 million and EVP HR 2.1 million for 3 months work in 2015. It’ll be interesting how much less SG took then BC as Prez of swoop if WJ group thinks swoopsters all around should be payed less. I bet you it’s more!

Pay protection is not a pay freeze. Confirmed by those actually paying the bills. It’s whatever rates are negotiated in the new contract as if we were employed as a captain.
I agree that arbitrators don’t usually give large pay cuts or increases, which is why I don’t think Swoop rates will move that much from current levels. Guess we’ll see. If it does go up it’ll benefit the ots guys as well since they’re pay protected

[lostaviator]

Pay protection is a Pay Freeze. You are protected from not having to start at year 1 Swoop FO rate of $55ish per hour. That is it. For example if the current WJ pay scales were to stay the same as they are today, in 5 years you’d be eligible for your first pay increase above your current $103hr as 6th year WJ FO sits at $106.

Once WAWCON are established at SWOOP, the captain positions will go much more senior then they went on the bypass bid. Current WJ captains will bid for YEG, YHM and (potentiallyYXX) captain positions if and when it is a good deal.

For the next few months as WJ pilots fly wetlease for Swoop, passengers will receive the exact same level of service from the pilots upfront as they would from swoop pilots. That will be a pretty good case point for the arbitrator to prove why WAWCON should be the same at both. Same job. Same plane. Same route. Same company.

We will find out in a few months when the management circular is released but I’d guess our new COO will receive 3-3.5 million dollars compensation for 2018(started last week). Our CFO received 2.5 million and EVP HR 2.1 million for 3 months work in 2015. It’ll be interesting how much less SG took then BC as Prez of swoop if WJ group thinks swoopsters all around should be payed less. I bet you it’s more!

Pay protection is not a pay freeze. Confirmed by those actually paying the bills. It’s whatever rates are negotiated in the new contract as if we were employed as a captain.
I agree that arbitrators don’t usually give large pay cuts or increases, which is why I don’t think Swoop rates will move that much from current levels. Guess we’ll see. If it does go up it’ll benefit the ots guys as well since they’re pay protected

Right.... because the people who pay the bills have been right about so many things lately.... don’t count on promises that are being made before the contract is out.

[Diadem]

So you're saying that you didn't decide the WOWCON at Encore, but saw an ad and opportunity that although was below airlines like JAZZ and Porter that operate similar aircraft and on similar routes, it was right for you and you took it, and in the meantime you are trying to improve the situation? Don't you think the same can be said about this situation? Except that the pay at Swoop although lower than WestJet mainline, was comparable with Sunwing, Transat, etc. It's all a matter of perspective and how one looks at the situation from all angles not one's own.

I don't think the establishment of Encore with lower wages than Jazz is a good comparison, seeing as Encore is a regional subsidiary intended to feed into WestJet's network. WestJet created Swoop using the exact same aircraft as WestJet already used, to operate on routes on which WestJet also operates, but with much, much, much lower pay, so it would be like Jazz creating a subsidiary operating Q400s and paying $20/hr. The fact that Encore pilots made less than the market average is less egregious than the fact that Swoop is intended to eat away at the bottom of WestJet's market, while not contributing anything to the rest of the company.

[sarg]

Pay protection is a Pay Freeze. You are protected from not having to start at year 1 Swoop FO rate of $55ish per hour. That is it. For example if the current WJ pay scales were to stay the same as they are today, in 5 years you’d be eligible for your first pay increase above your current $103hr as 6th year WJ FO sits at $106.

Once WAWCON are established at SWOOP, the captain positions will go much more senior then they went on the bypass bid. Current WJ captains will bid for YEG, YHM and (potentiallyYXX) captain positions if and when it is a good deal.

For the next few months as WJ pilots fly wetlease for Swoop, passengers will receive the exact same level of service from the pilots upfront as they would from swoop pilots. That will be a pretty good case point for the arbitrator to prove why WAWCON should be the same at both. Same job. Same plane. Same route. Same company.

We will find out in a few months when the management circular is released but I’d guess our new COO will receive 3-3.5 million dollars compensation for 2018(started last week). Our CFO received 2.5 million and EVP HR 2.1 million for 3 months work in 2015. It’ll be interesting how much less SG took then BC as Prez of swoop if WJ group thinks swoopsters all around should be payed less. I bet you it’s more!

Pay protection is not a pay freeze. Confirmed by those actually paying the bills. It’s whatever rates are negotiated in the new contract as if we were employed as a captain.
I agree that arbitrators don’t usually give large pay cuts or increases, which is why I don’t think Swoop rates will move that much from current levels. Guess we’ll see. If it does go up it’ll benefit the ots guys as well since they’re pay protected

You were employed as a Capt and that rate will be protected, but by the time the CBA is in effect you will be a F/O. You will not be a bypass Capt climbing a pay scale as you sit on a list waiting for a chance to move into a seat. You'll be a F/O waiting for the pay scale to climb to and exceed your protected status. Time will tell and the final order and CBA may further change those conditions as well.