Where is this so called shortage

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ehv8oar
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ehv8oar »

I can only assume that you are talking to the kid that gave up and not me.

Overseas almost 30 years ago when I started, after I got my cpl, I got my firsr job in a single piston till 800 hrs. From there I flew twin pistons for another 1000 or so. Then single turbine then multi turbine sic all the way up to heavies. I never worked the ramp and never knew anyone that did so as a licensed pilot not part of their flying duties

During this time I flew into fields and tracks around the globe in some challenging places. I have had plenty of low timers sitting next to me and all the time having to keep a third eye out.

Distinctly many of them should not have not been sitting there and needed 1000 hours more flying a single piston around and then more on a multi-piston as pic.

Never once did I think that that kid should be working the ramp. The Ramps was mostly full of other kids working to save money for their license.

There are many harder places than Canada around the globe yet Canada is alone with forcing pilots to work on the ramp. From what I have seen from my time here it is because of some asinine perspective from older pilots that this is how you earn your wings

It is about time that Canada joins the rest of the world and changes its attitudes to pilots and what they need to do to 'belong'. Otherwise Canada will continue doing what it does best by having the lowest paid pilots who are always fatigued working for the lowest benefits.

Because right from the outset they were trained to believe they had to work for next to nothing to prove themselves which carries itself all the way through until the are sitting left on a 7.

Maybe it is time to change, starting with seasoned pilots pushing their outdated perspectives on the newer generation. There is no reason someone can't work hard through their career without selling themeselves short doing what should be someone else's job (gloved WestJet pilot I'm looking at you)
Now that should be a stickie.

As digits said, the whole rampie thing is purely a way for some companies to get cheap labour.

They know that it makes sense as a business to do so because the low hour Pilot, for the chance of getting into the cockpit, will put up with the, sometimes, poor attitudes and zero respect of the company bosses towards them in a way that would have a normal worker saying no way I'm working for next to nothing to be treated like that and walking out the door.

Everybody has to learn how to fly in a commercial environment once they've left flying school and just because you're the best rampie in the world (the bosses love you because you can sweep the hanger at the same time as carrying bags and kissing ass) it doesnt prove that you're going to be any better an Aircraft Pilot than the guy who isnt so good at being a Brush Pilot.
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ehv8oar
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ehv8oar »

First off, working any job in canada will provide you a minimum wage. Stop trying to tell us that ramp work pays less, legally it can't.
Exactly, legally it cant but if you're paid a monthly salary, not by the hour, then who's to say how many hours you actually end up working. Work over a certain amount and at a point you start working for less than minimum wage.
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Outlaw58
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Outlaw58 »

ehv8oar wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:26 am
First off, working any job in canada will provide you a minimum wage. Stop trying to tell us that ramp work pays less, legally it can't.
Exactly, legally it cant but if you're paid a monthly salary, not by the hour, then who's to say how many hours you actually end up working. Work over a certain amount and at a point you start working for less than minimum wage.
You made a lot of teachers cry with that story

58
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digits_
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by digits_ »

Heliian wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:09 am First off, working any job in canada will provide you a minimum wage. Stop trying to tell us that ramp work pays less, legally it can't.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Of course, all operators -especially 703 operators who are dangling the carrot to the ramp guys- are always following all rules and regulations.

Up until a couple of years ago, there were FOs who weren't even making minimum wage! Let alone ramp guys. They get hired for a legal minimum wage 40 hour work week and end up working 10 hours a day. Or they have to be at the base 24/7 in case someone shows up for fuel at a random time,but they ended up working only 6 hours, so it's legal, right?
Heliian wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:09 am
Secondly, if you think that you won't learn anything about aircraft operations from ground work then you need to leave the industry.
If the goal is to learn about aircraft, you can do that in a week with an experienced ramp guy. Even a day if the company puts in the effort to show you everything you need to know.
Heliian wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:09 am Third, no career will give you top pay and a ceo position on day one.
Nobody is asking for that.
Heliian wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:09 am YOU HAVE TO PUT THE WORK IN!
Indeed, by working towards honing your flying skills, by flying a 206 - navajo - king air - whatever .. - airliner
goingnowherefast wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:18 am The 1500 hr rule is a fantastic idea that I support. However it won't prevent the training problems of 703/704.

Plus a 1500hr instructor still meets the 1500hr rule and is only marginally better than a 250 hr wonder. A FTU 152 is so vastly different in operation than anything 705 that it's almost irrelevant previous experience.
Ah yes, it's been a while since we've had some instructor bashing here.

"If a pilot has less experience than I had when applying for that particular job, he is unsafe and needs more training. If he has more, he is a fool and bringing down the industry by accepting sub par working conditions."
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7507
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by 7507 »

goingnowherefast wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:18 am The 1500 hr rule is a fantastic idea that I support. However it won't prevent the training problems of 703/704.

Plus a 1500hr instructor still meets the 1500hr rule and is only marginally better than a 250 hr wonder. A FTU 152 is so vastly different in operation than anything 705 that it's almost irrelevant previous experience.
So are you saying you'd rather hire a 200 hour pilot than the flight instructor with 1500 hours that is in the loop of teaching, yeah this so called professional aviation industry in Canada is messed up huge!

Yeah a 152 is different than a 705 machine but it was a 172 that brought down a 727 in California back in the 80s. Size didn't matter there did it?
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by jakeandelwood »

TeePeeCreeper wrote: Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:28 pm
jakeandelwood wrote: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:41 pm The aviation industry is a bit of a joke, while its a privilege to fly and the pilots that have worked hard to get there deserve it it's also in the end a job to make a living. The aviation industry gets away with BS that would never fly in any other industry, take this for example: when I was flying for a certain company they wanted me to move away to another base for 3 months, every expense of that was my problem, if I didn't go I wouldn't be upgraded to captain, I couldnt afford it so I ended up quiting. The job I have now in the trucking industry asked me to go away to another base to work for a summer. My company paid for my flight, my wage at overtime while I was on that flight and waiting for that flight, they provided me with a rental car, paid for a hotel, all my meals, they even flew me home every weekend to see my family. I told my boss I was surprised it was all paid for and he said that's a "normal corporate expense when someone works out of town" to get. When we hire a new truck driver with the proper licence he drives the truck, he doesn't have to sweep the yard for 6 months at minimum wage 1st.
While I agree with you given the pitfalls of this industry....
If you’re content as a 18 wheel driver.... why are you on an aviation forum bitching about an industry that you love to loath?
I'm on this forum because I love aviation, I'm not really content on driving a truck as compared to flying a plane for a living but driving a truck has allowed me to be able to buy my own plane and rent a hangar for it. I get way more excited about pushing my own plane out and going flying whenever I want than I did when I was working as a pilot, and that is enough to satisfy me I guess. It's just sad that I can make more money driving a 10 wheeler than my Captains were making on a 1900.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C.W.E. »

hire a 200 hour pilot than the flight instructor with 1500 hours that is in the loop of teaching,
The problem is the 1500 hour instructor has taught the same old T.C. pablum for all those hours and may actually think it is useful.

So I will take the 200 hour pilot and teach him/her how to fly in the real world of aviation.
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digits_
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by digits_ »

C.W.E. wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:00 am
hire a 200 hour pilot than the flight instructor with 1500 hours that is in the loop of teaching,
The problem is the 1500 hour instructor has taught the same old T.C. pablum for all those hours and may actually think it is useful.

So I will take the 200 hour pilot and teach him/her how to fly in the real world of aviation.
You can say the same for every type of flying.

The 1500 hour 206 pilot has flown between the same 8 airports for 1500 hours and may actually think it is useful.
The 1500 hour beaver pilot has flown between the same 15 lakes for 1500 hours and may actually think it is useful.
The 1500 hour medevac pilot has flown in the same province for 1500 hours and may actually think it is useful.
The 1500 hour 737 pilot has flown the same routes for 1500 hours and may actually think it is useful.
The 1500 hour airshow pilot has flown the same figures for 1500 hours and may actually think it is useful.

And as posted before, the planes in the real world of aviation can still crash if they collide with the planes of the imaginary (?) world of aviation.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C.W.E. »

I have to hand it to you digits, your thought process is profound.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by goingnowherefast »

A 1500hr instructor is slightly better than a 250hr pilot. They generally learn faster. However, in a King Air, I'd still prefer a 1500hr Navajo pilot with previous 703 experience. Or really anybody with 1500hrs of even day vfr 703 experience. A 1500hr float pilot has figured out how to fly and think. Just adapting that experience to a different operation.

Think about it his way. The weather is 500' and 1sm visibility. You see the runway mile back at about 300' on the ILS/LPV. Who do you want as your FO, the 1500hr Beaver pilot who's flown in similar weather using that stupid ops spec? Or the 1500hr instructor who's never seen anything less than 2000' and 5 miles.
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digits_
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by digits_ »

goingnowherefast wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:18 pm A 1500hr instructor is slightly better than a 250hr pilot. They generally learn faster. However, in a King Air, I'd still prefer a 1500hr Navajo pilot with previous 703 experience. Or really anybody with 1500hrs of even day vfr 703 experience. A 1500hr float pilot has figured out how to fly and think.
And a 1500 hour instructor hasn't?

CWE claims he'd rather have a 200 hour pilot he can teach himself, instead of a 1500 hour instructor. I think that's silly.

If we are generalizing: as an FO, it was pretty easy to figure out which captains used to be instructors, and which captains weren't. The micromanaging rushing type generally weren't instructors. The patient ones, usually were.
goingnowherefast wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:18 pm Think about it his way. The weather is 500' and 1sm visibility. You see the runway mile back at about 300' on the ILS/LPV. Who do you want as your FO, the 1500hr Beaver pilot who's flown in similar weather using that stupid ops spec? Or the 1500hr instructor who's never seen anything less than 2000' and 5 miles.
I've had both FOs, and it didn't matter to me. The beaver pilot might see the runway a bit sooner, but the instructor probably has a better IFR knowledge and possibly better instrument flying skills to fly an ILS manually.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C-GGGQ »

Here's the problem though. Your 1500 hour Navajo pilot doesn't want your king Air f/o slot anymore. He has way better options. Both are single pilot aircraft and if I can "fly" a super 200 at 5 sitting next to my grandfather on a run up to the maintenance shop, even the drooliest 200 hr wonder can too.

The 1500 he instructor also has 1300 hrs of judging his and students limits. Knowing when to take over from a student also teaches you when you need to defer to the experienced captain. I would think generally a 1500 hr instructor will be a easier crew to work with.
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digits_
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by digits_ »

C-GGGQ wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:57 pm Here's the problem though. Your 1500 hour Navajo pilot doesn't want your king Air f/o slot anymore. He has way better options.
Oh, absolutely. Nowadays the 1500 our instructor *IS* the 703/704 king air captain.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C-GGGQ »

digits_ wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:28 pm
C-GGGQ wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:57 pm Here's the problem though. Your 1500 hour Navajo pilot doesn't want your king Air f/o slot anymore. He has way better options.
Oh, absolutely. Nowadays the 1500 our instructor *IS* the 703/704 king air captain.
Oh we are on the same page here. Applied for a Navajo position, was asked if I would accept ramp. I told them I've worked every ramp from a ftu up to the a380 out of Pearson. I won't accept ramp as their is nothing more I can learn there. They agreed and gave me f/o. Know what I'm gonna do when I reach 1500 (let's be honest 800-1000 hrs) Navajo time? Not go sideways to a king Air. I'll be 1400-2000 hrs and I'll be knocking down Porter Sunwing and Transat. Maybe AC. Or I cave to my wife's desire to try the US and get her nursing career to sponsor my ass in too.
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digits_
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by digits_ »

C-GGGQ wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:45 pm
digits_ wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:28 pm
C-GGGQ wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:57 pm Here's the problem though. Your 1500 hour Navajo pilot doesn't want your king Air f/o slot anymore. He has way better options.
Oh, absolutely. Nowadays the 1500 our instructor *IS* the 703/704 king air captain.
Oh we are on the same page here. Applied for a Navajo position, was asked if I would accept ramp. I told them I've worked every ramp from a ftu up to the a380 out of Pearson. I won't accept ramp as their is nothing more I can learn there. They agreed and gave me f/o. Know what I'm gonna do when I reach 1500 (let's be honest 800-1000 hrs) Navajo time? Not go sideways to a king Air. I'll be 1400-2000 hrs and I'll be knocking down Porter Sunwing and Transat. Maybe AC. Or I cave to my wife's desire to try the US and get her nursing career to sponsor my ass in too.
If you're really good you might get to fly a metro :wink:
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C-GGGQ »

Hey a guy can dream
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by jakeandelwood »

Heliian wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:09 am First off, working any job in canada will provide you a minimum wage. Stop trying to tell us that ramp work pays less, legally it can't.

Secondly, if you think that you won't learn anything about aircraft operations from ground work then you need to leave the industry.

Third, no career will give you top pay and a ceo position on day one.

YOU HAVE TO PUT THE WORK IN!
"Working any job in Canada will get you at least minimum wage" really? Not in the aviation industry. My 1st FO job got me $50 a day, I started at 6am and finished at 7 pm, their answer was "you only flew for 2 hours so you got $25 an hour"
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Zaibatsu
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Zaibatsu »

digits_ wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:33 pm
goingnowherefast wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:18 pm A 1500hr instructor is slightly better than a 250hr pilot. They generally learn faster. However, in a King Air, I'd still prefer a 1500hr Navajo pilot with previous 703 experience. Or really anybody with 1500hrs of even day vfr 703 experience. A 1500hr float pilot has figured out how to fly and think.
And a 1500 hour instructor hasn't?

CWE claims he'd rather have a 200 hour pilot he can teach himself, instead of a 1500 hour instructor. I think that's silly.

If we are generalizing: as an FO, it was pretty easy to figure out which captains used to be instructors, and which captains weren't. The micromanaging rushing type generally weren't instructors. The patient ones, usually were.
Oh my god, this is so true!!!

Ex bush pilots are so like this. Diving off the glide path to drag it in, shooting through any hole as if it’s the only one they’ll ever see, not communicating any intentions of what they’re doing nor doing what was briefed, and micromanaging every little thing and being in a 703 hurry if they aren’t PNF, and perhaps worst, getting overloaded during a tough approach or emergency because they won’t slow down or ask for help.


goingnowherefast wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:18 pm Think about it his way. The weather is 500' and 1sm visibility. You see the runway mile back at about 300' on the ILS/LPV. Who do you want as your FO, the 1500hr Beaver pilot who's flown in similar weather using that stupid ops spec? Or the 1500hr instructor who's never seen anything less than 2000' and 5 miles.
I've had both FOs, and it didn't matter to me. The beaver pilot might see the runway a bit sooner, but the instructor probably has a better IFR knowledge and possibly better instrument flying skills to fly an ILS manually.

Also assuming that a flight instructor who’s flown single engine aircraft FOUR seasons doesn’t know what bad weather looks like. :roll:

Flying a flight school aircraft on an ILS is much more like flying a high performance aircraft on an ILS than it is flying a Beaver around in marginal conditions.
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JayVee
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by JayVee »

Now he's holed up in his mom's basement>
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GhostRider6
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by GhostRider6 »

I used to be against the Ramp....

I’ve been in the 705 environment for quite some time. It’s easy to spot the 200 HR wonders.. cocky, know-it -all attitudes.

I’ve heard college kids tell their captains that they had XYZ to offer over more experienced pilots because they had “ no bad habits” unlike like the rest of us.

The stories I hear.... man.

I worked the Ramp and was paid very very well.
..

I think every pilot new to an OP should start on the ramp regardless of time. It would probably take some of the 4000 hour pilots down a peg to be thrown on the Ramp with guys / gals with 200 hours. It’ll also show tue prospective 200 hour pilot what work ethic really is.

And yes, I’ve been the 3000 + hour pilot on the ramp.

Bring on the 1500 hour requirement or more to sit right seat on 705!!
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